Why? Is it more important than your marriage?

Well said.

Go ahead and let your thread drop out of sight. Methinks you can't handle people seeing through your charm dance.

You don't like my sarcasm? Well I don't like yours.

Where is your empathy? Where is your feeling for the people you've wounded?

You think you're pretty special, don't you? Mais bien sur!

You don't even like women. You like it when they fawn all over you but you don't like it when they actually need you to show the heck up. When they have demands and messy feelings and all. When they count on you to be honest and protective. Oh no...you're in it for the good times.

Sad...

'Very Good' . . .
French Translation:
"Tr�s bien"!!!

I am "there" with my H!!!
Very insightful...
TY...

armymama, Thanks for your reply. I understand that I'm "*I*ing" here all over the place, but I feel there's no way for me to speak for AI. My understanding is that her thread is for her experience, mine is for mine. I'll continue to ask for help regarding ways to make my part of this more solid, and ways to help her through my actions. You're right, though. This is about AI's healing and my change. AI is the focus here. Please advise as to how my wording should be changed. It would be greatly appreciated.

I don't have internet access on my phone, but I still have wifi capabilities. Apps do not typically need an internet browser to run, therefore I still technically have "internet capabilities", which is why I said that I was severely restricted. My apologies for not being more clear. My internet browsing abilities have been removed, and my browser is completely gone from my phone, as is my ability to download apps without her passcode.

If I don't get "punished" for breaking EPs, my family will suffer at the hands of my ignorance and probably, and the likely inevitable pushing of boundaries and the start back on the road to affair-land. Not something I want.

It is wrong for me to look at porn because it allows the fantasy of having sex with another woman who is not my wife to become closer to reality. It also allows me to proliferate my history of disrespect for women, will encourage me to view this subject as flippant and non-serious, and will most definitely land me on a one way trip to the above mentioned affair-land. Not a place I'd like to go again.

It is wrong to lie because it doesn't help anyone - not even myself. Hiding things is not being transparent or honest. Lying is deceitful and harmful to the health of my marriage and to anyone I am lying to. Lying is wrong and affects everyone around me.

I hope I addressed these things to your liking. If not, please let me know. I'm willing to give it another go.

indiegirl: You're right - my word is not trustworthy. I can't touch this subject, even if I want to tell you that it was "just porn".

You're right. I AM a grown man who hurt my wife. I'd like to clarify that I was making a comparison as to the circumstances of my restriction. I acted like a baby and was punished as one. I hope that clarifies that situation. I was in no way intending to minimize the situation with my comparison. Just wanted to say that I got what I deserved... to some extent.

I would also like to say that, in light of my breaking those EPs, I'm pretty damned lucky to be sitting here typing this in the same place that my wife and kids live. Mnstrously lucky.

You're right, indiegirl. EPs are EPs. There is no comparison in size. You break one, you break em all.

Porn is a glorification and blatantly vulgar exhibition of a sexual experience between two people. It allows fantasies to be created that aren't healthy in terms of a marriage. I've coming to that conclusion. I won't be watching any sort of porn ever again.

I agree with you. I got off lightly with this EP breakage. AI has made it clear as a bell that there will be no easiness next time, if there is a next time. I'm both terrified and committed to doing what's right. AI means business. I'm responsible for my past, present and future actions.

AI IS putting her health at risk by staying with me. Her physical, mental and emotional health is at risk every day she spends in my presence. I am VERY aware of this, and know that it is MY job to take over where you guys left off and make sure that she's solid throughout this process. That means no Lovebusting, no broken EPs, and no [censored].

On her thread, you said that she should give me three weeks to see BIG change or beat it. I have echoed your sentiment and intend to be hugely different in that span of time. Not for you. For her, for me, and for us.

Wulffpack_girl: that was quite a heady post. Thank you for the definition and dissection of the difference between shame and guilt. I feel massive amounts of guilt, but have been having trouble showing it. It's getting easier for me to show, but I expected a torrent of guilt to spill out and fill AI's wounds. This hasn't happened. Would you please give me examples of a remorseful person and attitude, in your opinion? It would be greatly appreciated.

And yes, I am in control of my own actions. I am smoking this into myself deeper every day. It's the most important step of the process, IMO.

Prisca: When AI read your post to me, I was quite floored. I'm not a fan of your delivery, but you speak volumes as to how important it is to control one's self and take responsibility for one's own actions. IF there's any advice you could give me on the subject, I would greatly appreciate it. I'm listening.

FindingFreedom: You nailed that one. I DO distract myself constantly from the tasks that seem daunting to me. I'm focussing on this more and more every day in an effort to weed out the negative behaviour. Focus is a main concern to me in regards to this process. I have to gain that focus. Now.

Shingles, I believe, is - bardeau or zona

LuvsDavid: Nope. I just don't think it's a very necessary act.

*sigh* zibbles: I won't be letting my thread drop out of sight. I can definitely handle people seeing through my charm dance. It's a learning curve, and an uncomfortable one at that, but AI and I have come to the conclusion that it's necessary.

Nope. I don't like your sarcasm. I guess it reminds me too much of myself in some way. Doesn't mean we can play in the same pond though, does it?

My empathy is here. It's been slow coming, but it's here. I feel for the people I've wounded, but more so for my unjustly treated wife, whom I'm trying to prove my love for.

I don't think I'm pretty special. I have a sense of entitlement, that's for sure. But I'm no special snowflake. I'm a run-of-the-mill wayward. Hell, some of the people on here have done worse than I have. I'm just a d**khead that's got a lot of people riled up, is all. I'm working on that, though. AI and I have been talking about the progress I have to make in order to defeat the anger, and something that Prisca said a while ago came up - that I have to change the way I talk in order to stop adding fuel to the fire. In fact, I've read that in several Anger Management documents and books thus far.

You're right. I've said it before on several occasions that I disrespected women and harboured a hatred for those that didn't take my crap. When women fawned all over me, I felt a sense of superiority and fulfillment. With my newfound segregation from that particular part of my life, though, I'm finding the moments when AI digs me to be a whole helluva lot more fulfilling. And then there're the times when my kids come blasting at me when I come through the front door... That's tons more fulfilling than some hussy willing to drop her panties for me. There's no comparison.

You're right. I'm in it for the good times. So why should I not make the effort to have those good times with my wife and kids? Why should deign to believe that I should depend on hundreds of people out in the world to give me false adoration when I can have the real thing at home?

Why go out for burgers when I have steak right here?

***************************************************************************

Today was pretty good. AI had a total meltdown last night after realizing that this is going to be harder than she thought. It was one of the most painful things I've ever witnessed, and looked to be a horrific experience for her. She cried on the couch while I held her, and when we went to bed she cried while I held her there. We went out for a smoke and she cried there, as well. During the whole time, we stayed silent for a while until I broke through by continually reassuring her that I'm here for her. I am. I apologized again and again and meant it every time. I let her vent and took it like a man. And I'm more than willing to do it again.

When she woke up this morning, she was in practically the same place. Slowly we brought her up to a better, more easily manageable place and went about our day, all while I was relaying positive and encouraging things to her in a thoughtful manner. Radical honesty allowed me to explain to her that the previous night's experience was terrifying and heartbreaking for me to see, and also allowed me to fully explain to her that I'm serious and with her 100%. I never want to see that again. Ever.

Right after breakfast, went to the MTO and transferred the van to both our names. Now I can't skip town and sell the van. Not that I'd want to, anyways. That's another piece of this list done done done.

We talked about several of the other pieces in this here intro-puzzle, and have decided to take care of the book prioritizing and the EPs tonight, after I listen to today's episode of MB radio and the writing of this post.

AI made me aware of several threads on this board about owning one's actions and about a book that helped someone's WH, that was mentioned on her thread. We're going to make sure to pick that one up and she'll afford me the time to read the threads she mentioned.

She also made me aware of the fact that most of you have unceremoniously ditched her because of her choice to stay with me. While I think this is a very classless act to do to someone in their darkest hour, I also understand your motivation somewhat. Regardless, it's her choice, and it's my job to prove to her that I'm here for her in a pure way. I can't speak for any of you, but it sounds a hell of a lot like you don't support people who don't do exactly what you want them to do, even though you've seen folks like us become MB success stories. Yes it's a hard road, but it's entirely possible, and will damn-well happen with us.

She needs your guidance and support. I'm asking you, even though I don't have the right at all, to get back in there and back her the hell up. Leaving her high and dry is cruel. Now she's left with me and me alone. Do y'all think that's fair to her? I don't.

If she doesn't want to leave me, she doesn't want to leave me. I can assure you that she will kick my [censored] to the curb when she's had enough. At this point, though... she's still got hope for this relationship. So do I, and I'm going to kick the crap out of this immediately.

I don't know if she'll continue posting here or not, but I can assure you that I will.

I'm off to listen to the MB Radio show for today.

Also, I've borrowed a credit card and bought AI and I access to the archives for a year's time - meaning that we can download and listen to MB segments any time we please. I'll be asking AI to help me choose which ones to put on my iPhone which I will listen to the next I'm shingling or sculpting with butter while learning Hindi.

Last note: brokenvase: You mention in your signature that you and your husband are both wayward and betrayed. Did this all happen within the same relationship, or is in relation to separate instances away from each other? I'm curious as to the dynamic between two people who have both been at one time wayward, and recovering with a serial cheater and habitual/perpetual liar. Please advise. Thank you.

What is the difference between recovery with a wayward spouse and a serial adulterer? What would certain requirements be that could help AI and I reclaim our marriage and recover as fully as possible?

I've downloaded the past three days worth of MB radio from the archives and have put them on my iPhone.

The plan is to listen to the current day AND one full day of a previous episode, per day. AI approves.

Nope, I said that her Plan Aing should have only lasted three weeks, and that time period ran out some time ago. Every day that a spouse stays in Plan A longer than that short time scale she endangers her health. I don't approve of AI's decision to stick this out, I think she's being too much of a hero and not being smart.

You need to get into recovery TODAY and stop letting her haul your sorry hide up the recovery mountain, because she's going to have a breakdown.

She is not responsible for teaching you anything. She is not responsible for recovery. Just being around you will hurt her. So not only do you need to treat EPs a lot more seriously but you need to get a lot more serious than that simple basic stuff. You should be spending all your time healing her, racking your brains for ways to show her you are safe.



I would be more grateful for her tough stance on you and calling you on the bullsquat. As you have seen it has taken a lot out of her to fight for the marriage. Where would you be without that tough love though?



That really depends on you wouldnt you say?

AIs decision to stay with you and stick this out past the point of human endurance is not MB advice. No one here is going to help her go against MB advice while you remain so untrustworthy.

That is not to say she has been left or abandoned. The posters who have left her thread are amongst the ones most concerned for her welfare and most experienced at dispensing advice. They are watching and reading, but there is no more they can say if she will not take their advice. They will not enable AIs decision to hurt herself. You have repeatedly hurt her and there is nothing to suggest you won't do so again.


Its all on you now.

TRT, you have absolutely NO RIGHT to askDEMAND anyone post to anyone else. We all have emotions, and many of us get emotionally involved with the people we are helping. I, myself, have had to take a break from the boards due to the let down by many posters I was tying to help because I saw the downward spiral that they wee on, and I couldn't watch it anymore.

You see, we've seen this all before. I have this small glimmer of hope that you CAN change, but you are NO WHERE near that yet. You aren't humble enough.

You KNOW that AI isn't done with you, and you know the amount of wiggle room you have left. You know how far you can push her, and you can sense that she isn't done with you yet, so you are only going to do just enough. The usual "punishment" for breaking EPs is Plan B. Do you know what that entails? I don't believe that any poster told AI to just dump you and move on, they told her the truth. This is going to be hard work, and it is going to be emotionally draining. Until you are actually serious about recovery, you aren't safe for her.

Many of the posters who have "abandoned" you and AI are esteemed vets, and have helped COUNTLESS of couples through this. You show GREAT disrespect to them, and the rest of the boards by thinking that you can tell them what, and how they should post. How many marriages have you saved exactly? Get over yourself. This is one reason why you needed to keep posting. You are so high on yourself that you think you know so much about MB. You think that you don't need anyone's help. Your posts come across as extremely arrogant. That's what we, out here in cyber world, see. You can't go into recovery arrogant. What you are going to do is cause AI to have an emotional breakdown.

I am very glad that you dropped the sarcasm, I know it's a Canadian thing(we are quite sarcastic as a society), but it is also a way to keep you detached. It keeps everyone from knowing you, and from you being vulnerable. You're very "fake" when you are sarcastic. This also shows your dishonesty.

Now, I want to touch on something. Your use of "I" and "me". I understand what your reasoning is, but you need to understand what it is like to read that kind of post, we know that your focus is on YOU. We can't change that, all we can do is point it out, so YOU change your way of thinking. You aren't safe for AI as long as YOU are YOUR focus. And stop putting so much responsibility for this recovery on AI, because for now, you are lucky she has even given you a chance, again. Believe me, if you move a toe over that line again, not only will I push AI to Plan B you, but I will ignore anything you have to say in the future. You need to understand that there are DIRE consequences to your actions, and the road to recovery is very slim. You break EPs, and you make that road that much slimmer. If you put her though a False Recovery(which is where you are leading right now), you WILL become divorced, because she won't find you worth that pain any longer. The biggest risk to recovery is the Betrayed Spouse. They usually get to the point where their WS just isn't worth it anymore, and it would be easier to just move on. Don't get AI to that point, and understand that she is very close to that right now.

Have you read all of the material on this site? Do you know what Plan A is? Do you know how to meet ENs? I know that you have read about LBs, and are "trying"(please stop trying and actually STOP)not to commit them but there is sooooooo much more YOU need to do.

YOU need to do ALL of the heavy lifting. YOU need to be the one changing. YOU are the one responsible for this recovery. If it fails, it's because of YOU. Stop putting ANY of the responsibility on your VICTIM.

And keep posting, even if no one is posting back to you. Remember, the people whose posts ruffle your feathers the most are probably the ones you should listen to most closely. When you feel comfortable, it means you aren't changing, and boy oh boy, do you need to change, and quickly.

I won't let AI lower the bar. It does HER a disservice, and she is more important that you.

Excellent.

FYI, rightthing, there is no way we will ditch your wife.

By now you need to know what Dr. Harley says to do in order to eliminate angry outbursts. You can find all kinds of information about this in the radio show archives. I have also posted reams and reams of information to you about it on this thread. You have a lot of reading to do. If you have already read the material, you need to re-read. It took a lot of re-reading before things kicked in for me.

Well, until a day or so ago, you were too lazy to listen to a free radio show, but you changed that, so good on you.

Now we'll find out if you're too lazy to find out what Dr. Harley says about how to eliminate angry outbursts.


Be aware that there is a lot of ineffective advice on anger management out there. Please, PLEASE make Marriage Builders your core guide to overcoming anger, and use other material only to supplement. I say that having enrolled in one anger management course, and having counseled with a therapist who used yet another approach. Use MB as the core guide on this, because it works.

Not looking for fans

My delivery is completely factual. It wasn't my responsibility to help Markos to stop abusing me. It was all on him.

YOU are the cause of your anger, and understanding that is the first step toward overcoming it. Your wife is not the cause, and she can do nothing to "help" you other than refusing to take any more abuse from you.

From Dr. Harley, to another poster:


You've dealt two death blows to your marriage -- your infidelity, and your angry outbursts.

What's going to change?

Make sure your anger management program follows Dr. Harley's guidelines, found on pages 98-112 in Love Busters. You can't afford to screw this one up, and a lot of anger management programs are just fluff. You CAN succeed at this, if you follow Dr. Harley's guidelines to the letter.

Here's another good clip on anger. Dr. Harley talks some about his own anger that he had to overcome.

Radio clip on anger and Dr. Harley talks about his anger he's had to overcome

Wow...I don't even know where to start. Each time I read one of your posts, I vomit in my mouth a little bit.

You are the proverbial cat who swallowed the canary. You're just sitting there, smug as can be thinking, "yep, I broke an EP, ain't nothing gonna happen" and "AI won't be smashing my phone, not now or ever." If I were you, I'd smash the phone myself (actually, it'd be MUCH more practical to sell it on ebay- you can get enough on ebay for an iphone 4s to pay for one counseling session with steve harley). And then I'd go to the store and get one of those flip phones that doesn't even take a picture, much less able to look at BBW porn.

And you know what? I would do that all on my own if I broke an EP- not b/c my BS made me. But I should let you know that I've never broken an EP. Yep- that means I too was a WS. I care so much about them that I won't break them if my BH is practically telling me to (ie. I quit drinking, and he offered me some of his beer.)

There's a few words you should look up: 1) Proactive- why is there a need for people here to be telling you to be posting here and reading the material?? 2) Sincerity- your posts (still) are dripping with platitudes and wanna-be humor. You want people here to like you, so you think being funny might accomplish that- I don't think it's so much about deflecting and being vulnerable as Scotty says, but because deep down you think, "Hey, maybe if I'm funny, these guys will like me a little more and think, 'this guy's not so bad after all, he's got such a good sense of humor, maybe we should cut him some slack'"

I enjoy humorous writing- I in fact have a humorous blog that is funny enough I made money off it. my natural inclination is to throw humor into anything I write. So I get it to an extent, but when I got here, I was so torn up (well- first I was just mad and foggy) but THEN I was so incredibly torn up about what I'd done to my husband and how I'd hurt him, I couldn't have written anything funny if I wanted. In fact- I haven't been able to write anything for 6 months. So you coming here and throwing jokes left and right tells me (someone who used to be somewhat like you) that you are totally not serious and you don't care about your wife.

All you do is parrot back 'You're right' to whatever poster says you need to do 'this and that'. Everything you say sounds* FAKE and CONTRIVED.(* I say 'sounds' instead of a declarative 'is' because I am allowing for the slight chance that I am wrong and you are being sincere).

As for threatening to ignore posters? really? If you don't feel you need all the help you can get, then something is wrong. Feel free to ignore a poster when everyone else is also telling them that they are way off base and shouldn't say XYZ. Until then, it'd probably do you well to listen to anyone that posts.

Oohh...one more thing I remembered- Asking how to show remorse? If you have to ask how to show it, it probably means you don't have any.

AGREED. You don't need a phone with internet access. The world used to turn just fine without them, and still does.

AGREED!

True remorse is never, ever breaking EPs.

Good grief

I don't even know where to start....

I am surprised that you need examples of how to be remorseful. Although admittedly, I did an utterly lousy job of showing remorse to broken (my H) before finding MB, so I�ll give you the benefit of the doubt. We waywards tend to be a pretty clueless lot when we first show up here. Time will tell if you are in it for the long haul, and you�re willing to stick around and learn and, more importantly, to APPLY what you learn. I�ll be frank with you, I have not been impressed so far. I�m trying to be tactful and supportive for your children�s sake and especially for AI�s sake, because the woman is bleeding out on the floor.

It�s actually quite simple.

You do whatever it takes, for however long it takes.

That means whatever AI needs from you, you do it. No more broken EPs. Eliminate any of the conditions that made your affair possible. Dr. H outlines it all when he talks about �just compensation� here (I apologize if it has been posted before, but it never hurts to read and re-read the material on the website and in the books until it sinks in).

Above and beyond, TRT. Smash the damn phone as the other posters have said. You can get along fine without internet access on your phone. That is such a simple thing to do.

You can�t expect AI to drive recovery. Essentially, on that first Dday, you blindsided her by whipping out a shotgun and shooting her in the heart. Each trickle-truth served to kick her while she was down, bleeding out on the floor. When you cry �I I I me me me,� you�re attempting to divert the focus from your victim to you�like you have a paper cut and want AI to put a band-aid on her gaping wounds and get up and tend to you.

She is your focus. Every day. Ask her, �What can I do for you today?� Fill her love bank by meeting her ENs. She may not be receptive at times, but do not let it discourage you. You should meet her needs right now with no expectation of having your own met. That will come in time, if you are successful in rebuilding your account in her love bank.

Read some of the threads here from betrayed wives, who are in successfully recovered marriages. armymama is one poster who springs to mind�she and her H recently celebrated their 30th wedding anniversary and she posted an update on the Recovery board. Read everything that GloveOil and HerPapaBear, both FWH�s, post.

And this rings so true:


Trust me, you do not want to get to that point, TRT. That�s where my marriage is at, and it is not where I want to be�yet our infidelity gave our spouses every reason to walk away.

Your actions now should be giving her a reason to stay.

You realize that it has not gone unnoticed that you have been lecturing posters since the start, despite the fact that you yourself were continuing to trickle-truth and gaslight your BW, right?

Having the audacity to say that the forum is somehow being "cruel" to your BW when you have been the one twisting the knife in her back this whole time reveals your attitude and plays a role in why there is really no recovery happening right now.

I have seen MrsWondering (a wonderful FWW who doesn't post too often anymore) say that recovery begins with a wayward with a humble heart...so my advice to you is to GET HUMBLE and knock this type of posting off for starters. Seriously.

I am not trying to lecture you or pretend that I know it all.

That said, I want to tell you something. I live with someone like you. No one is perfect. AI isn't perfect, you aren't, I am not, my spouse is not, we all fail, say and do stupid things. Porn and cheating is a choice. It isn't just a stupid mistake that you make one day. When it is erased, hidden, lied about and repeated, that takes it to a whole new level.

Are you capable of seeing the damage you have done? I mean the REAL damage? Are you capable of letting yourself FEEL the hurt you have caused your wife by your repeated choices. Making it once crushed her, but to continue making them as if there is no real damage is something else.

You are in denial. Denial that you are not killing your wife inside. Denial that you are not destroying your family.

If you don't feel remorse, then you probably aren't sorry. Maybe you don't have the ability to emphathize. If that is the case, then you have much bigger problems. Marriage to a narcissist who has such low standards will never work.

You don't have the right to do these things to your wife. She gave you the most important role in her life. You were supposed to guard that, protect that beautiful gift.

What is controlling you? Selfishness, fears? Get off it! Face your fears - they are controlling you into this mess. If it is selfishness, let AI go. She deserves better.