Here's my story. I'll try to be detailed, but it's 3:24 am here, and I'm exhausted from the peak of this situation. I owe my wife the respect of confessing this, and I can think of no better place than here.

I've been married for almost 7 years, have three children (1, 3, 7) and have been unfaithful to my wife for all of our years of marriage.

The first one was an emotional affair that lead nowhere. I wanted it to, but it didn't go there. She found out about it, I lied my face off, and she let it go (to some extent).

The subsequent affairs were the same. People fulfilling the emotional needs that my wife wasn't meeting due to my lack of communication. She was as guilty as I was in the deterioration of our relationship, but I was the one killing it by seeking outside aid. All of these affairs could have turned physical, but my nerved wouldn't let them.

The last affair, and the one I was officially busted on, I explained was an emotional affair. I told my wife that it was just that, but I was lying. It was a physical affair with someone that I worked with. We consummated our relationship twice, and shared a mutual feeling of love and adoration for each other.

We met at work, where she initially flirted with me. This is not usual for me, as I'm a highly flirtatious person, and very aggressive at it. She caught me off guard, and I was intrigued, if not a little scared. We continued talking, mostly about comic books and geek stuff, the friendship evolved into sharing intimate details about each other's lives, and further down the road into overtly sexual topics.

She was intrigued, and so was I. We arranged a meeting place (her apartment) on the premise that she thought I'd never go through with it, I met her there, and we wound up in bed.

The second time was identical, minus the lack of faith in my showing up.

The affair lasted from early March of this year, to the beginning of May.

I was called out about 2 and a half weeks ago with a text message from my wife linking to several articles from MB detailing how to survive an affair. Every single thing that the Dr. wrote described me to a T. I was caught and feeling guiltier than ever, but still unwilling to confess.

Later that day, and after reading several more articles, I went outside under the guise of calling a friend to talk, and instead called my affair partner. I broke it off with her and told her that we would no longer be seeing each other. We both cried heavily.

I also contacted my doctor and requested that he put me on an extended medical leave (a leave that I had been on due to depression), set up an appointment, and went. My leave was extended.

I confided in my wife that I was having an emotional affair with someone at work, and that I had broken it off with her. I cried as I told my wife that the reason I was with the other woman was because she made me feel like I deserved to be loved, and that she (my wife) wasn't doing that for me.

We talked about it and decided to research MB in full. Over the next few days, I printed off several questionnaires, we filled them out, and we began to understand each other better.

In the past few days, as my wife started experiencing PMS, we hit a bad patch. I started thinking about the other woman again, feeling guilt for hurting her, and I started being cold and short with my wife. I felt guilt for betraying her, but couldn't fathom the idea of telling her that and facing her.

Throughout all of this, my wife insisted that I still wasn't telling her everything.

Tonight, as I wrote a two page list of EPs, we spoke at length about how we were feeling. She expressed dissatisfaction, and I got angry. We argued, and she walked away with the impression that I "just didn't want to do this". She was right.

I folded laundry and took a shower while I mulled over my options. I could swallow this and keep going, but the relationship would suffer. I could walk out, but the children would suffer. Or I could fess up and face the music.

I sat down and told my wife that I couldn't do this anymore because I didn't want to. I them told her that I had slept with the other woman.

We have been arguing every since, and I told her at about 12am today. We are arguing because I cannot seem to show emotion, although I feel absolutely terrible. I too, am in shock. I never thought I would tell her.

We spoke about taking a polygraph, which I am vehemently against, but have agreed to do so voluntarily. I do not know if this will help or hinder our relationship, and the lack of control that I would be able to have over the situation terrifies me. It would help her with her peace of mind, and that is why I have agreed.

I do not trust my wife, and she does not trust me. We have three children together, and they don't suspect a thing. I do not want this relationship to end, but I don't know what to do. I will follow the advice put forth by MB until I see the result I want. The result WE want.

We have completed the EN worksheets, have discussed the LB worksheets, have completed the personal history worksheets, have purchased and started reading His Needs, Her Needs; Love Busters; and the Love Busters Workbooks. I plan on devouring all three and proving to my wife that I am here 100%.

I intend to stick to my EPs to the letter, and also show my wife that she is the only one for me. I want to be a better man, and a better husband.

I have a history of depression and suicidal thoughts, and this event has taken me to a very dark place. I am determined to prevail, as I know that she is the person I want to be with forever.

I have a doctor appointment on Thursday where I will disclose this information to my doctor and request all tests that could give results about STIs, STDs, and any other sexually transmitted anything that one could possibly test for. I have faith in the fact that we are both clean, but I want my wife to have that peace of mind as well.

I have suggested that we give this 6 months and if, at the end, either of us is not happy, we'll reevaluate.

I am writing this on a public forum with full knowledge that she will read it. I intend to give her a link to this post, and to give her my password for this forum, as I have given her all of my passwords, logins, records, and every other form of admittance to my internet, cell phone, and personal life.

She has full access to everything but what's inside my head. I have promised to give her complete and radical honesty, openness and transparency.

I intend to work very hard at this. I intend to succeed.

I have texted the link to this post to my wife.

Tomorrow I will start to rebuild our relationship as best as I can. I just hope it's not too late.

I must also admit that every bit of truth revealed has been "trickle truth".

The physical relationship is the ONLY truth that I have offered voluntarily. It was the last thing I was hiding, and this the reason I am willing to follow through with a polygraph.

Welcome to Marriage Builders. I hope you're serious about recovering your M. There will be vets that will sniff you out if you aren't. You ready to get to real work?

It's actions your BW needs right now. She needs to actually see a changed man.

So you need to expose this, your children, your boss, your family, your wife's family.

Were any of these OW married?

You need to find another job.

You need to schedule the poly and take it.

Listen to this radio clip of what Dr. Harley tells a WH he needs to do to save his marriage.
Radio clip at 3:50 mark

Tell me what you think.

Have you written NC letters and let your BW read and send it?

No Contact Letters

Will your BW come here so we may help her?

Call the coaching center today and set up an appointment.

therightthing,

I'm sure you have more things to hide and first thing is to voluntarily offer the number, the names, the places, the extent and the whole timeline of your affairs to your wife. The full truth. Honesty includes also historical honesty. Then polygraph. Schedule it and pay for it yourself. There is no place for getting angry, this is not about you, it is making amends to your W and kids. From now on, when your W wants to talk about your secret second life, know details and all, you calmly offer her this information without getting angry or upset in any way. As for her emotions and feelings, you have to be there, because if she chooses to stay married to you at all, it will be difficult times ahead, she needs all the support, because processing all this [censored] is sometimes unbearable.

You have to take full responsibility for your actions and you better lose this entitlement you still have - your W is not responsible for your poor choices at all and never will be. So the deterioration and killing your marriage is on you and only you.

MB is a lifestyle, this is not some 6-months programme. If you are not happy then you are not following the programme, it is as simple. Recovering your marriage from your affairs takes 2-5 years.

I would call the coaching centre - MB Coaching Centre. They will help you.

What exactly have you done so far regarding extraordinary precautions? Could you give us a list?

Welcome to MB.

Welcome to Marriage Builders. I wanted to address a couple things that stood out to me. The first is the comment above because it implies that your wife is responsible for your affairs. She is not. The reason you had the affairs is because you have pisspoor boundaries around women and are out actively seeking action. You can't blame your wife for that. If she were meeting your needs perfectly, you would still be having affairs if you have poor boundaries and are out chasing skanks. Nothing your wife does can overcome that.

You have to decide if you want to be a married man or a single man and make a decision to stop abusing your wife. What you have done to her is as traumtic for her as being raped or assaulted. And you have done it over and over again. Do you realize that? You are not a safe person until you affair proof your life.

In order to affair proof your life, you need to radically change the environment that allowed your affairs. For example, if you work with women, that should be changed. Your wife should have full access to your cell phone, bank records, everything; your life should be so transparent that it is impossible to have an affair. All of your leisure time should be spent together.

Additionally, your affairs should be exposed. To the husbands of these women, your families and your friends, your employer, your children. Everyone should know what you have done. The more people that know, the more people to hold you accountable.

Do you still work with any of your OW?

I have researched polygraph costs where I live and have chosen one that we could potentially visit.

My no contact letter was sent in the firm of an email that my wife approved and witnessed me sending. I went behind her back and sent another one from a secret email address that my wife subsequently found. This was two and a half weeks ago. I read the email to her out loud.

I am making plans to leave my job. My worry is that, as the sole income earner, I fear I will not be able to find something that keeps us afloat financially. I would like to be able to fix this marriage AND retain out ability to pay bills. Like I said, this is a worry, as finances have always been a major source of argument.

I have taken full responsibility, but still feel cold inside. I would like to hear from men in my position and have discourse with so I can fully understand what this is supposed to feel like.

I readily admit that I'm being distant from this forum because of the pack mentality, and that that is a bad sign. I would like to open up to you all, but I do not feel comfortable. I understand that this is normal.

I have been lying to my wife for almost 10 years. At this point, I don't feel like she will ever have a reason to believe me. That's a terrifying prospect and one that I feel I'm using as a crutch to hold me back from doing what is necessary to save our marriage.

I don't know what to do. I feel so cold and distant from all of this. My wife explained I me that I'm thinking in a fog or clouding my judgement. Right now, I feel like I don't deserve to be here and that my efforts will be wasted. I'm scared to leave and I'm scared to stay.

I fully admit that I'm looking for someone to tell me what to do, and to tell me that there is an easy way, but I know there isn't one.

I've destroyed my marriage, and I've broken my wife's heart. I don't see anything good coming from this at all.

Is this normal?

You can only solve a problem when you face it head on. Half measures lead to half results.

Your guardedness and defensiveness only serve to protect you, not your wife, your children or your marriage.

Only you can decide what is more important to you. You or your family and marriage.

Surrendering takes courage. More courage then walking away.

Hi therightthing. This is a very important step - honesty. It is the lies that hurt the most and what many BS's agonize over the most-how you could look her in the eye and lie. So tell your BW EVERYTHING. She can handle it...it is the lies that she can't handle.

Take the poly. This will go far in your effort to EARN back her trust and respect. I'm curious why you state that you do not trust your BW.

Have you committed to NC for LIFE with the OW?

Have you posted here under another name?

Welcome to MB. You have found a great place to learn how to rebuild the love and respect in your marriage.

I agree that it would be a good idea to have another job lined up before you leave. Are there any OW at work?


"Taking responsibility" has to be backed up by actions, not empty words. You haven't taken responbility yet. And you don't need to hear from specifically men who have had affairs, you need to hear from those who understand the Marriage Builders program. That is all you need. Examining your feelings is not a solution; following a plan to save your marriage IS.


Asking people for help and then calling us a "pack mentality" is not going to get you too far. If you want our help, then you might want to show some respect. It is not important that you "open up" but that you listen to US. You don't know how to save a marriage, we do.


Of course she has no reason to believe you. You have to EARN trust. That is what one does when he claims to be "taking responsibility."

Change this to: "I will do whatever it takes for however long it takes to save my marriage and keep my family together."

So when are you calling the coaching center?

I have committed to No Vontact for LIFE with the other woman.

It was just revealed to me that my wife has had contact with her, and she responded as we've been talking for the past hour.

The other woman was a co-worker. My medical leave ends in the beginning of July.

I am sorry for being so defensive and inappropriate with my comments thus far. I do feel at a loss and really do not know what to do. I am researching all of the advice that you have shared. I will respond personally (with quotes) when I have a moment at a computer and not my iPhone. I am responding to you all in front of my wife. She is aware of ALL of my actions.

As for a disclosure letter, my wife has admitted that she does not want a public shaming in front of her family, and agrees that I should tell the truth to my family and the friends I have confided in regarding this. We already have strained relations with her mother.

I will try to respond in more detail later. Thank you for your comments. I really DO appreciate them and your advice. And again, I'm sorry for being judgmental and rude.

My wife and I have come to the agreement that we cannot afford this right now, but I have decided that I will save up for it and may sell some of my belongings in order to afford it.

That's too bad because a divorce could cost so much more.

Will your BW come on here and post so we may help her?

Does she still work there? And are any of the OW married? If they are, Dr Harley suggests that the BS inform the other spouse.

Additionally, any children over the age of 4 should be told what is happening.

You and your wife can recover your marriage using the books and the forum if you are very diligent. I would get these books: Surviving an Affair, Lovebusters and the Five Steps to Romantic Love. They sell them cheap here or you can get them used on amazon.com. Another great resource that is free is the radio show.

Will your wife come here and post to us?

Here's the radio clip of Dr. Harley to tell children even as young as four.

The Harley's discuss telling the children even as young as 4 about the affair

She still works there and she is single. She lives alone and is, as her texts to my wife detail, not remorseful for the relationship, but is for causing harm.

I have told my wife that you have asked whether she will post or not. I told her it was her call. She asked if I wanted her to. I said no evade it would make me uncomfortable. Ten I told her it was probably a good idea based on that.

None of the other women were married.

Welcome Mrs. Therightthing to Marriage Builders. Love for you to start your own thread.

I'm his wife. I just registered.

He says he's 100% committed to making this better, but he's not. He's way foggy. He's been no contact for about two and a half weeks, but just confessed that his EA was a PA last night around midnight.

Now, less than 24 hours later he's lying on the couch saying how depressed he is and how he can't fix this. He doesn't want to do the polygraph, but says he 'will'.

He has not done and refuses to do ANYTHING I ask. He's cold and generally expressing the fact that it isn't worth his effort to make this up to me because he 'just knows' I'll never forgive him.

Sounds to me like he doesn't want this to work and is trying to make me be the one to end it.

He says he wants this relationship, but doesn't know what 'the right choice is'.

I want this to work but I am so, so brokenhearted. After two weeks of thinking things were going great, and talking endlessly about how important total honesty is, he was still lying right to my face. And now that he's not lying, he apparently no longer wants to do any of the work to save our marriage, or in any way assuage the pain of his affair for me. I don't know how to make it work if he SAYS he's sorry and oh so repentant, but his actions say he can't be bothered.

I should probably start my own thread because it isn't fair to be ranting here on his.

AlmostInvictus, I agree, start your own thread.

In the meantime, please get yourself tested for STDs, it is clear that he is a serial adulterer.

I'm relieved that my wife has posted. Sea already expressed these things to me, and yes, I AM a serial adulterer.

I will be getting tested for STIs on Thursday and disclosing everything to our mutual doctor.

I am guilty of all of the above.

It's occurred to me that I haven't even asked the question I've been wanting to.

I have repeatedly stated that I "don't know what to do", an that is the truth. I feel like she won't believe me in the least when I try to "show" her that I want to be in this.

How can I defeat that, and what could I possibly do to prove that I want to be here? How to I break past the fear of failure, and the obvious fear of success?

Welcome to Marriage Builders, Almost. I am so sorry that this has happened to you.

Among other things, I would suggest that you need to start prepare for a separation from your husband, in case he does not follow through on doing what is necessary to recover. We will do our best to persuade him that this is the right course, but you need to start preparing for the eventuality that he may not do what it takes.

rightthing, it's time to get off the couch and learn what it takes to recover a marriage after infidelity. Quit whining that you do not know what to do. You are on a site that tells you what you need to do, and only a lazy person or a complete moron could sit on this site for very long without learning what it takes to recover from infidelity.

Okay, rightthing,

First of all, it doesn't matter if your wife believes you or not. At this point in time, convincing her of ANYTHING is not part of what you need to do. Got it? So don't spend any time obsessing about what she does or does not believe. It is a distraction from what you need to do.

Second of all, you are on an education site for teaching you what to do to recover your marriage from an affair. Get busy and embark on a program of education for yourself.

Have you viewed Dr. Harley's video on infidelity? Here is the link:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi1001_infidelity0.html

Have you read every page of Dr. Harley's Q&A columns on infidelity? Here is the link:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5525_qa.html

There are 29 pages there for you to read. Got it? Twenty-nine long pages, and you need to read them all, even the ones that you might think don't apply to you.

Third, do you own the book Surviving an Affair? If not, buy it online IMMEDIATELY and when it arrives start reading it from cover to cover.

I will not waste any time with you if you are so lazy that you are unwilling to do these three things.

I will. I have three little kids here and I don't want to sit at the computer crying and being a mess right now, but I'll post after they go to bed tonight.

My goal for the day is basically to get through it.

And hope he decides to show a little more concern for my feelings.

I'm so ashamed of being a person it's so easy to betray. And so hurt that he's not wanting to help me through this.

I know it's pretty normal. But damn.

These questions are about your feelings, which don't matter at this point. The action plan here is a plan you undertake regardless of how you feel about it.

You don't need to break past the fear of failure. That's [censored] code for "doing nothing." Like for several months when I claimed I was "working on my anger problem." Truth was I was doing NOTHING!

You don't have any emotional obstacles to overcome. You are not clueless and helpless. You are a grown man in big boy pants and can JUST DO IT whether you are afraid or not, and whether your wife believes you want to be here or not.

You don't have a fear problem or any other emotional problem. You do have an ignorance problem: you can't JUST DO "IT" until you get off the couch and stop whining and start reading so you can learn what to do. You also likely have a laziness problem. So shut up, get up, read up, and get started.

To work this plan, do not focus on your wife's feelings at the moment. Her feelings will change and go back and forth and up and down many times. Focus on your own actions. In this case, your lack of actions. So far, you've posted on a website, sat on the couch, and whined. None of those is a step in Dr. Harley's Marriage Builders plan.

Go ahead and get started on your own thread, Invictus. The fine folks here can help you learn how to change this about yourself.

"He has not done and refuses to do ANYTHING I ask. He's cold and generally expressing the fact that it isn't worth his effort to make this up to me because he 'just knows' I'll never forgive him."

Hello AI. He is right, you won't forgive him and you SHOULD NOT. That would be inappropriate. Instead of demanding forgiveness for himself, he should be busting his [censored] to give you just compensation. That means he tells you the full truth, passes a polygraph, affair proofs your marriage and does a much better job of meeting your needs and committing to the marriage. If he won't do that, then you would be better off without him. Without those steps, your future will be filled with more affairs.

NO ONE is worth that. So unless he makes a concerted effort to give you just compensation, you are just wasting your time with him. From his posts, he sounds like he is completely focused on his own misery rather than grave damage he has caused you.

Additionally, I doubt all of his skanks were single, so I would find out if they are married and if so, inform their husbands.

Have you been checked for STDs?

Markos:

I agree with you. I have HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS; LOVE BUSTERS, and the workbook. I'll go grab them now and get started.

I've also expressed interest to my wife in both the home study courses AND the online courses.

I'll buy FALL IN LOVE, STAY IN LOVE, and SURVIVING AN AFFAIR.

You may sound like an a**hole, but you make a lot of sense. Thanks.

Talk is cheap. Your fears are irrelevant. What matters is rendering aide to your victim rather than worrying about yourself. Give her just compensation by changing your life in a way that this can't happen again. Find another job, open up your life to her and start acting like a husband. And stop whining about getting forgiveness. You aren't going to get forgiveness. It is inappropriate.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html

Can't we Just Forgive and Forget?

Thanks, Melody. I've read that one.

I'm just about at the point where I'm ready to give up on myself as focus on her and the kids entirely.

I've just proposed that we take a trip to the bookstore where I will take the kids to the kid's section while she looks around for things she wants. Whenever we go to the bookstore, she always ends up with the kids. It's my turn to take the rug rats on.

While there, I will also purchase a gift card and order FiL, SiL, and SURVIVING AN AFFAIR.

You're all right. It's time for me to step up or step out.

Here goes.

Great. Do not miss what I said about viewing Dr. Harley's video and reading the 29-article "How to Survive Infidelity" section of this website. Those are free and available to you NOW. Get educated, and get busy.

Therightthing,

Your poor boundaries, running off to other women, is what has created this mess. Giving up on focusing on yourself is simply a way for you to weasel out of doing the hard dirty work this is going to take.

Expose yourself to your boss/human resources, your family/friends, your OW's family and friends, and schedule that polygraph to show her you are serious.

Your bookstore suggestion... helping her out with the kids well, sir, that is like putting a round little dinosaur bandaid on a overflowing cut artery. to an outsider, it seems like you are trying to play good husband to patch over your deeds,

Haha, good! I may not win any friendships, but I do want you to get busy, because I know that if you follow this plan it will lead to happiness for your family. And after that you may be glad I sounded like I did!

No more whining that you don't know what to do, okay? Your brain is going to be like a library of broken records that are going to tell you ridiculous things to repeat like this. When you are repeating such things, you are not acting. Get busy.

Speaking of "what to do,"

Start a to-do list. Start it from this thread. Write down everything that has been suggested, and add to your list as you are going through the materials here.

* Tell my wife all the truth without minimizing anything
* Expose my affairs completely to my children
* Expose my affairs completely to employers and others, especially victims
* Get tested for STDs
...

On it, Markos. I'll post that and my EPs later today or tomorrow morning.

If you're serious, these guys will be your 'best friends' when you have recovered your marriage and life.

Friends don't shield you from the truth, they help you be successful.

I like that quote. A lot.
I'll start kicking the crap out of this and keep you guys updated.

Small victory: wife and I were speaking in the car, i put my hand on her knee, she put her hand on mine and squeezed. I almost cried. It felt good.

Please understand that yesterday, or today since it was midnight, is DDAY for your wife regarding this PA. Her emotions are going to be a crazy rollercoaster ride. Small victory, but expect there to be moments that are less happy. The week of my H's PA DDAY I told him I forgave him and was happy as a clam. Don't ask me why, relieved to know the truth I guess. I knew it wouldn't last and sure enough it didn't. It is easy to be gung ho during the small victory moments...but what kind of man will you be when your BW is at her worst of moments, that is the test for you.

Of course we didn't have a PLAN. You do, you have MB from DDAY. You are very lucky in that way, to have a solid plan of action and amazing vets to guide you. Stay the course.

TRT,

Reading your thread sent a chill down my spine, your story and how you feel and what you did is almost exactly the same as what my FWH went through,

He had multiple EAs throughout our marriage but not phisical until the OW work colleague,

It lasted 2 months
They consummated it twice
We had been married 8 years when this happened
We had small kids at the time
He broke NC with OW and theft bad for her
He was super concerned about loss of income
He got severely depressed and wanted to run
He felt cold and emotionless after D Day

The list goes on and on and on with regards to the similarities

He never posts to help others on here but I have alerted him to your thread and he will be here soon in response to you wanting advice from someone who has been through what you have been through.

We are recovered, he has changed and turned our marriage around, he feels again so there is hope especially if you listen to the vets and stop making excuses for why you aren't quitting your job or why you feel bad for a skank that voluntarily entered into a relationship with a married man.

My FWH is Learning2grow. So look out for him.

NB28, I look forward to hearing from your husband.

I will post my EPs and my plans in the very near future. Every minute of this (away from the couch cushions ) makes me realize how much g-d work I have to do.

This woman is worth it. I will make myself worthy.

therightthing, your post brought tear to my eyes. My WH started to post on here and said that he would "do whatever it takes". That said, he hasn't been here in a while...
I hope you continue to post and learn from the wonderful people here. You and almostinvictus are BOTH worth it!

I do hope that my post brought tears to your eyes for good reasons.

The bookstore trip was productive. We talked, she asked many uncomfortable questions, and I answered honestly and calmly.

I am resolved to go through with the polygraph for her peace of mind. I will start saving money towards it ASAP. I have already contacted a service that will conduct one. AI has already told me that her questions will be straight to the point and brutal, and has given me some examples.

I also purchased a gift card and will buy FiL, SiL and Surviving an Affair tonight.

We talked about the issue of STD/STI testing and the horrible feeling she has because she had to be tested as a result of something I did. I agree with her. It was horrible and disgusting of me to do this.

We also talked about "sex" for a moment. I don't know how to approach this subject at all. I feel like its completely out of the question and unable to happen again based on my infidelity. She is of the opinion that sex is a part of being in a relationship, and that it will happen again. I feel uncomfortable with this notion and told her that honestly. I'm still very attracted to her, but I do not believe I deserve to lay down with this woman ever again due to my irreparable actions.

Thoughts?

The sex will come and it will be hotter and better then any affair partner could give you.


Because it is based on love. It is the real deal.

I do not think either of you should push sex until you have both been tested for STD's. You are right, it was horrible for you to endanger the life of your wife and the mother of your children to sleep with some bimbo who clearly had no morals. If she slept with you, a married and unavailable man, who knows who else she has slept with and what you and your wife have been exposed to. It is in your wife's best interest right now to wait until you find out before you further physically endanger her.

Once you have taken the tests, and providing you are 'clean' and can resume, it is totally up to her if and when she is ready for that kind of intimacy again.

Cut the dramatic crap.

You must EARN that privilege, that joy, that role as husband-lover-hero-protector- friend.

I think what you've said makes sense, but that was offensive and unnecessary. I would like you to explain to me how this behaviour and conduct is conducive to BUILDING my marriage with my wife.

I am intent on saving my marriage. I have resolved to do everything I can. But I don't see anywhere in the teachings of Dr. Harley that gives you the authority to blatantly disrespect aNd crucify another person as you've done here.

To all of those who have posted productive comments, thank you. Your guidance is invaluable. I will put these things into motion 100% and now.

The Right Thing,

When my wife (NB28) read me your initial post it could have been written by myself 3 1/2 years ago; it literally is that similar.

However I am now recovering with my wonderful wife after overcoming many situations I didn�t feel or believe I too was capable of. Its hard work I wont lie but once you understand, change your mentality and commit to a few straight forward rules believe me you can still have the marriage you always wanted with your wife.

The most worrying parts of your post for me were the same traps I allowed myself to get caught in which slowed down my recovery and caused my wife so much pain.

I noted in your post that you talk about your wife�s �responsibility� towards you having an affair. I too initially resented my wife for what I felt I was lacking in my marriage. I was the king of justifications trust me. But I was totally wrong as are you; your wife did NOTHING to cause your affair, that disgusting decision was made by YOU and is yours to own alone. Free your wife from your judgements�.Take responsibility yourself to begin repairing this marriage.

I find it extremely concerning that you referred to your mutual feeling of love and adoration with your OW and the fact that you both cried when you ended the affair; we both know differently; I too used this justification to try and convince people here that my affair was in fact �special� compared other peoples and that I had something special�. I even went as far as to call it a relationship within a relationship!! STOP THIS NOW, you cant villify your wife and glorify you�re affair. Your wife put up with years of neglect from you, while you periodically emotionally withdrew from her when having your EA�s but she stuck by you and loved you regardless of your actions. The OW put out for a married man and knowingly entered into a relationship that destroyed a family unit; who here deserves glory and who deserves to be vilified?? Your view is very foggy. What you in fact had was a normal sordid textbook affair; you had zero personal boundaries, allowed inappropriate contact when the OW flirted with you, the OW knowingly got involved with a married man, you both knew the damage it would cause but didn�t care one bit because your emotional needs were being met. What you both did was a disrespectful and disgusting act towards your wife who did nothing but love you; giving you kids, a marriage and also despite your previous EA�s stayed with you. The OW is nothing less than a skank, the same as every other 3rd party that actively chooses to get involved with a married person fully knowing the damage it will cause. You should never EVER feel �bad� for her or allow any more friendly feelings towards such a person.

Stop justifying and allow yourself to see the truth; your wife the only true victim, the reason for the affair, your poor boundaries, the real OW, a homewrecking skank who got involved with a married man. Oh and finally just in case you still intend to justify it, you yourself posted that the OW doesn�t regret the affair for one second�.. TRAMP

Lets talk about being emotionless and depressed because that was my trump card here�.. To be honest I just wanted the affair to disappear so I could get on with my marriage and my wife wouldn�t suffer anymore. I didn�t want to do any hard work especially when I felt entitled as she had caused me to have the affair after all�.hadn�t she? I believe we have already dispelled this ridiculous justification so lets just get on, marriage builders is a plan; so requires nothing from you except total dedication and maximum effort, failure is not an option�..failure is divorce and a broken family. Once onboard with MB emotions and feelings will come. Once you become the husband your wife deserves by changing your attitudes, behaviours and protecting your marriage you will feel good about yourself.

TRT, there are many more issues here but lets start with these as you need to support and protect your wife right now, she is in more pain than you can possibly imagine whether she is actively showing it or not. Step up and be there for her before anything else�.. You can do it

Ok now I am convinced that you were previously posting under another name.

For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure he wasn't. I asked him to post here and 'own his [censored]', so to speak. I kind of regret it, because he's clearly not taking the criticism well. But he's not a troll or anything.

Thank you L2G. I will reread this post.

Well, posting like this is going to get you a thread that has very little help from people who can actually help you. Pepperband is one of the BEST posters we have on this board, and I credit her with helping me become the person I am today.

You can't tell other posters how to post, and if you believe that anything is against TOS, notify the mods. That's their job afterall.

Your attitude towards a member on an anonymous forum suggests to me that you are quite foggy. You are on the defensive, when you should be contrite and humble. You have harmed your wife in the worst possible way. We are gonna call you on your bull, and that's because we are here to help your wife, and help you. Do you want that help? If not, I'd like to know now, so I can help someone whom really wants a fighting chance at saving their marriage. Believe me, it's about to get a lot bumpier on this ride. Are you willing to do anything and everything, for as long as your BW needs?

With all due respect, how would you know what is conducive to marriage building and what is not? Pepperband is in a recovered marriage; you are not. Overly dramatic "sacrificial" gestures, such as the above, are not only NOT conducive to marriage building, but they don't impress anyone. Giving up sex helps no one. Let's keep it real, please.

AI, stick to your own thread. It's distracting, and unhelpful to post to you on this thread.

Yes, I want help. I don't want to be made into a cuckold by someone who doesn't know me, when clearly my responsibility is solely to my wife. How is shaming me productive to the building of my marriage? It's incongruent, irrational, and morally bankrupt.

I came here for help. Not a lynching.

*******************EDIT**************

moderators note: do not disrupt this thread by signing up to lecture posters. That is our job. If you have an issue with other posters, notify the moderators

TRT

Lyncing is part of the process, in order to bring any moral decent part of you that's left out we need to lynch the wayward foggy part.

sheeesh, more drama! If you are acting like a drama queen, folks are going to point that out. How about knocking off the drama and getting serious here?

Former this forum uses MB principals. Advice is given following the mb principals not personal views.

The vets CAN judge because they have extensive experience in how to defog Waywards, assess affairs and rebuild marriages.

Uh, FSU, you might want to actually read and absorb the MB concepts before you start posting to these threads in support of a WS and criticizing the methods.

Just sayin'

ITA

Thank you for letting me know up front that you aren't serious. I'll check back to see when you are, and until then, I'll help your wife.

And FTR, that was NOT a lynching.

You committed a SIN, and you LIED about it, FOR YEARS. You are a serial adulterer that doesn't deserve your loving wife.

I hope that you wake up and learn what you really need to do to save your marriage.

*****************EDIT**************

Former, what is your story? Maybe you could start your own thread and we could offer you some help.

therightthing,

I'm a guy who's walked a spell in your shoes. Over on around p.7 of the Recovery boards, you can see a bit of my story in summary.

You want to know the words that will guarantee that your wife will stick it out with you while you try to rebuild your marriage with her?

There aren't any.

Words won't do it. Your word is as good as dust. You ground it into powder by your own actions & deceptions & lies. So actions -- sustained & over time -- are the only things that can, in installments, with time, restore any matter of credibility.

You want to have some measure of assurance & certainty that this'll all work out? After the tsunami of uncertainty you've just spread all over your wife's world, you've gotta admit, that notion is pretty rich, ain't it? I'm sure that if you look at it with a calm eye, you'll see the irony.

Actions are all you've got going for you.

You want to make your marriage better than the one you had before the cheating? It's possible. With actions.

It won't come easy or cheap. Nothing worth holding onto ever does. There are a lot of half-men out there who only want easy & cheap. On your one spin around the earth, are you willing to settle for being one of those?

If not, then: Actions.

Start by geting Surviving An Affair. It's a book that my wife & I would both tell you just may have saved our marriage after my affair; and I don't get a penny for saying so. (Heck, I should be catching up on work now.) Read it cover to cover, with your wife. Around p.70 or so, look at the stuff on "Extraordinary Precautions." List yours. I wanna see your list here, in 48 hours. (That's not merely a rhetorical comment. I wanna see your list. As does your wife, I'm sure.)

-- If OW is a work acquaintance, lose the job & get another.
-- If you talked or texted by cellphone, you change the number tomorrow at opening of business. Not just block her. Change your number altogether. Give your wife any passwords to the device.
-- If you e-mailed any of the OWs, you change your e-mail address. First thing in the morning. And give your wife your passwords.
-- If you haven't verifiably sent no-contact letters that your wife has seen & approved according to the MarriageBuilders format, then do it.

And more.

-- If your wife wants you to take a polygraph to get at the whole truth, you agree to it. Not reluctantly, but with a gracious smile on your face. Ask your wife to make the appointment(s) and you be there.
-- If she wants you to get tested for STDs, you offer to get tested twice.
-- If she wants you to do all the laundry, you get up early & do it.
-- If she wants to rant & scream at you & pound on your chest & ask "Why?", you sit there & you take it with meekness & humility.
-- If she wants to go out for dinner, you take her. If she wants love, you give it to her.
-- If she asks questions, you answer truthfully, fully & with no purpose of evasion.
-- If she wants you to shuddup because she can't stand to hear anymore for a spell, you shut up.
-- If she goes into a pit of despair and wants you to stand silently by, or to hold her while she sobs, or to get the hell out of the house for a few hours, you do what she wants.
-- If you don't know what she wants, you ask her.
-- You be there for her.
-- If she wants to learn your emotional needs, you communicate truthfully.
-- If she wants you to do better at meeting her needs, you learn them, and figure out how.
-- You keep at it, day after day & week after week.
-- If she feels depressed because her world's been turned upside down, you remind yourself that you were the cause.
-- If you feel depressed because your world feels turned upside down, you remind yourself that you were the cause.
-- If you want forgiveness, you remind yourself that forgiveness, by definition, can't be deserved or earned -- it can only be given as a gift -- that's the "give" in "forgive." And you nevertheless do your best to try to earn it every day anyway.
-- You don't set deadlines. You relinquish any assumed "right" to set timetables or to call the shots. You allow her to set the pace of recovery. And you can help at the margins by taking all these actions to help her feel emotionally safe with you once again.
-- And you don't quit. Because she didn't count on taking a ring on her finger from a quitter.

You got questions? Ask me. I won't sugarcoat anything for you. That's a promise you can count on.

You're ahead of the game. She hasn't kicked you out. She hasn't sicked a lawyer on you.
You don't deserve that much slack. I didn't either.
Start earning it.

I disagree. The two of you need to be intimate quickly, and often. There are ways to do that without compromising your health. Use condoms. Experiment with different types of sex that won't compromise your health until both of you have been given a clean report. But don't stop having SF - this is very important.

A cuckold is a man whose wife is screwing around with another man. I have no idea what you're saying, here.

P.S. -- rightthing, let me also suggest something that was suggested to me by the marriage counselor that my wife & I used in the aftermath of my affair.

(And so that you don't misread my tone, which is easy to do on an internet board, please keep in mind that I'm not yellin' at ya; I'm whispering to you here as a friend over a virtual cup of coffee):

I think you really oughtta drop the hyperbolic language, ok?

It doesn't accomplish anything positive for you, and certainly doesn't gain you any sympathy.

"Lynching"? Really? Listen to that. You just put your wife's health at risk without her knowledge, and yet you're using the term "lynching" -- which means an extra-legal murder by hanging at the hands of a mob -- to describe getting called out by some people on an internet forum? (People who are right on-target, by the way, as you may see one day soon when you go back & re-read with a cooler head what people are trying to get across to you.)

The comparison implicit in the term is not remotely applicable. It only embarrasses you. (I say that as a guy who did & said plenty about which I'll be forever embarrassed.)

Take the hyperbolic language out of the equation, especially when speaking with your wife, and also if you could, please, when speaking with the volunteer posters here who are trying to help the two of you. Calmness & humility will get you a long way right now. That's something I learned the hard way. But your wife will appreciate it.

Six months .... You're making a mistake.
How do I know?


It's going to take a minimum of 5 years, due to your lengthy history of dishonesty and "agressive" flirtatious behaviors/habits.


Do you have any substance abuse issues? You mentioned depression and suicidal ideation. Did you know that you will minimize some of those issues once you develop a pattern of behaviors which show integrity? You won't need skanks to boost your ego. When you use women to define a 'reflected sense of self', you weaken your self esteem.
Weakened self esteem can lead to depression, drugs, drinking, suidical thoughts, and other acts of self-loathing.
Basically a downward spiral.
Want to feel better about yourself?
Behave with honor and integrity.

If I say "Cut the crap", it causes you to become angry, because you rely on others to define who you are. Instead of lashing out at me, try looking at the issue at hand. Your melodramatic hyperbole are not the garments chosen by a man looking to become a better husband.

We, all of us, want you to cut the crap and take it easy on the drama. It's pointless.

And, we will ' high five' your progress as easily as we tell you to "Cut the crap".

Well Said GloveOil.....


<as I sit enjoying a cup of virtual coffee with both of you, enjoying the wise wispers of G.O.>

Pep is one of the sweetest things since they invented chocolate.....

She will be one of your greatest fans when your actions deserve merit..... So be nice!

Tell the truth, PapaBear .... How much did you hate my guts during your false recovery period?

LOL

I had little affection towards you for a spell ... Now, you're like one of my own kids.
<~~~~~ Pass that kiss on to your wife. Tell her I said "hey".

TRT, understand that NO ONE here wants you to fail at becoming a FORMER wayward spouse. That would be the best thing for your wife, your family, and more importantly, yourself.

Okay. I'm listening. This feels terrible, but I'm listening.
Go. Because my wife is sitting upstairs almost completely incommunicado and I want to fix this.

Hyperbole done.

Listening begins.

Well, I gave you a lot to read. As did Pep and others. We gave you some to-do's. Any reactions?

You're not the only guy who's ever felt like you feel now. I know that, 'cuz I lived it.

Sometimes the best prayer in your arsenal is "Lord, please get me through the next 5 minutes." -- 12 times in a row if you need it to get you through an hour.

And sometimes the Lord drops a pile of tools at your feet, and expects you to pick 'em up and practice with them until you get good with them.

I think Surviving An Affair is one of the best tools out there for a guy in your place.

rightthing, go upstairs & tell her that you're all-in. That you'll do what it takes. For as long as it takes. Even if you have a lot of learning to do just to learn what all "it" is.

Might not happen today, but if you're really lucky, she might tell you what my wife said to me on our D-Day (see red text, 2nd quote, below). Because that means she's willing to give you a 2nd chance.

OK TRT,

Follow up on this one...... Let us know whats up!

RT, you have no idea how lucky you are to have Pepperband posting to you. No idea. Please let this woman talk to you and please permit her to do whatever it takes to straighten you out. When she is done you will feel like a grown up for the first time in your life.

It's conducive because you are being a dramaqueen (eww!) and that will interfere with you being able to recover your marriage, and Pepperband is calling you on it because she has been here for OVER A DECADE and knows what habits you need to eliminate in order to become a person who can rebuild your marriage.

You have no idea how many wayward husbands (and crappy husbands) that Pepperband has helped to GROW UP and RECOVER THEIR MARRIAGE. I'm one of those crappy husbands!

When you hear something that bothers you, the problem is (usually) not that the person talking to you is being disrespectful. The problem is USUALLY that you have a character issue that is unpleasant for you to face. That is the case here.

I will grant you that some people sometimes get disrespectful. But Pepperband didn't come on here and tell you you were worthless or something like that. She simply told you to KNOCK IT OFF. And she did that because you need to knock it off if you want to recover your marriage.

Because it is all about what you DO not about what you SAY. Many unfaithful husbands and wives show up here thinking what they need to do is whine appropriately about how they were not worthy. They don't. They need to SHUT UP about it. Eventually one of the steps Dr. Harley's plan will have you take is to never bring up the affair again, after all the facts are out in the open. That's going to make it very difficult to sit around whining about how you aren't worthy and deserve to be kicked to the curb.

Listen to Pepperband, okay? She's on the side of your marriage.

I'm here looking for it.

It's not what you say, it's what you do.

Do what people said to do, then.


She's going to be like that for awhile, a lot of times.

Quit looking for a short term fix to her emotions. She will be up and down. What matters is, are you following the plan?

I deserved everyone's wrath!



I joyfully followed your instructions..... She loved the kiss and says hello...

Something tells me you didn't kiss her the way Pepperband would have!

Just a note here:

I'm still experiencing some reluctance, but I've written my exposure letter and will reword it with AI until she feels it's right. I've changed my cell phone number and given it to a select group of people who know my wife and she knows in turn. I am going over (and adding to) my EPs as we speak.

I have contacted the few people I have supporting me and thanked them for their support, but aske them to support my marriage and my choices to **EDIT** through with the extreme/extraordinary measures I am willing to take with this program.

AI and I have had several arguments, but I am doing things like holding her hand, touching her knee, offering support when she's sad, and trying to take the kids off her plate as much as possible.

I feel I am starting to make efforts that will work. I am aware of her anger, resentment, and hostility towards me, and I completely agree that he is entitled to it. I will support her in any decision she makes, and will prove to her through my actions that I am here 100%.

My list of EPs will follow soon. With three kids, I can only work so fast.

Please edit out her real name!

When you have 30 minutes ....

[video:youtube][/video]

Infidelity: What every couple should know.


What every MB forum poster should watch.

Please post it here for some feedback!

You'll discover in time, as people become willing to tell you, almost everyone already knows about your adultery.

When you work the "measures" for years your marriage is the thing that becomes "extraordinary" other than that...there is nothing "EXTREME" about the measures at all. The "measures" are just the simple (and not so simple) things that Dr. Harley has observed individuals in awesome marriages doing by nature for years and they are reciprocal (your wife will need to implement them too).

Behavioral theory: If you behave like you an awesome couple...the behavior eventually becomes a habit and you'll eventually become an awesome couple.

The point is....MB is not a punishment. It's a process of implementing tools that you BOTH should have been implementing since day one TO YOUR MUTUAL BENEFIT and ENJOYMENT.

Mr. Wondering

There is nothing "extreme" about Harley's EP recommendations, the vast majority are just simple common courtesies that most successfully married couples already implement as a manner of respect.

They seem "extreme" to wayward spouses because wayward spouses do not understand/believe/care about how these boundaries protect marriages.

This is why you should not consider a "6 month" trial period - you need to work on undoing a decade's worth of poorly ingrained boundaries. You need more time.

I don't even remember that personal info being there. Sorry.

I've researched several books on topics that will help me be a better man, but am finding it impossible to track down anything on being a liar or a womanizer/objectifying women.

Any suggestions for literature on these topics?

You haven't exhausted the literature here, yet. Marriage Builders will handle all of this.

Have you read the articles I gave you links to yesterday and watched the video Pepperband and I posted?

Just tell the truth!

Love Busters contains a section on dishonesty.

If you knew your wife was going to leave you the minute she discovered another lie, no matter how small, I'll bet you would become honest in a hurry.

If you knew someone was going to SHOOT you the next time you lie, I'll bet that would motivate you even more.

The problem is not that you can't control the lying. The problem is that you haven't been sufficiently motivated.

LoveBusters

His Needs, Her Needs

Both by Dr. Harley.....

Sorry. I'll post my EPs in a bit, but I wanted to share something.

I just read a reprint of Chapter 13 from His Needs, Her Needs online. I'm reading, reading, reading, BAM! EPIPHANY TIME!!

Cut the melodrama, Drama Queen! It's time to fulfill AI's Emotional Needs until I turn blue in the G.D. face! All of this coupled with my exposure letter and EPs (and a lot of hard work), and I'll be on Harley's narrow path to AWESOMETOWN!

Sorry. I got a little excited when it finally clicked.

Time to get to work!

trt, YOU don't write the letter. SHE does. YOU approve it and mail it.

If your wife's nickname is Al, stop using it. Don't put personally identifying things on the internet.

This is very good, but don't lose sight of the fact that your WW needs to EARN her way back to your marriage. She has to be on board with recovery and willing to do what it takes to recover from her terrible decisions.

Folks,

trt's wife is posting under the user name "AlmostInvictus", hence his nickname "Al".

Um, okay - I'm missing something. Her name is Almost Invictus. HIS nickname is Al. He's posting as trt. What am I missing?

Bliss,

trt is the WS

Almostinvictus (aka, Al) is the BS

You're overthinking it, MsBliss. "AI" is his nickname for her.

Bliss, what you been smokin girl?

Marital Bliss, with all due respect, PLEASE tell me you know that there are STD's that can be spread even WITH the use of a condom??? HPV, the NUMBER ONE spread STD, the virus that is responsible for genital warts, can be spread by skin contact even without penetration. I have read a thread on here within the last two months of a BW who contracted this from her WH.

I understand SF is an EN, but seriously. This woman has been through enough than to have to deal with an STD contracted from her WH. It doesn't take long to get most tests back, there is no reason she should be exposed in that amount of time to meet an EN.

Don't have sex until you are tested for STD's. Please. I have read that 1 in 4 people have HPV, many who don't even know it. And this is only one example of STD's that can be contracted WITH the use of a condom, there are others. These can cause lifelong health problems. You may not have thought of your wife when you were exposing yourself to this, but think of her and protect her now.

LOL! I don't smoke the stuff, so I can't blame it on that!

I understand your concern, but also understand that there are sexual acts that can be safely carried out without endangering either person's health. Many married people deal with the same thing every day. They adapt. They make it work.

The intimate act of SF can be accomplished without endangering the health of either partner and should not be dismissed until it's been confirmed that a partner is disease-free. They need to be reconnecting ASAP.

No genital to genital contact though.

Hey I understand the need for SF, trust me! But reconnecting at the risk of someone's health because you can't wait the 2 weeks it would take to get test results back is just not the answer.

Enough said.

Of course. Creative and committed people can overcome a lot of things. They can wait two weeks for results that will give them the go-ahead to have genital contact. (I also suggest they ask their physician for a 'safe' date to resume genital sex.) Until then, there are other options for SF. They should also get 'safe sex' information from a health care provider.

OK trt how about your list of EP's???


You've been home all day! PROCRASTINATION??

Did you get your poly scheduled today??

Did you get to the Dr. for the std test?

Actions!
Actions!
Actions!

Please don't be another member of the ATNA club, OK!

(ATNA = All Talk No Action)

You are really making excuses here, and we would do you a real disservice if we did not call you on it.

Those three kids are going to have some serious odds stacked against them if their parents' marriage does not succeed, so those three kids are a reason to work FASTER. Put a video on for them or take them out to the backyard, and get cracking.

HerPapaBear, one of the wonderful posters here helping you, had SIX kids at the time that he came back to his marriage. He put together a big todo list within ONE day and started ticking them off. You've already put us off for a day; you told us yesterday you'd post EPs this morning, and here we are at nightfall and they are nowhere to be found. HPB's got like eight or a dozen kids now, and still finds plenty of time to make a good marriage.

You can make this work, and you must make this work.

I've got six kids myself, so I don't see three as a lot! :P That dog won't hunt on this thread.

Hey, rightthing, this is not a rhetorical question. You need to become familiar with this material. Have you watched the video? Have you read the entire "how to survive infidelity" section of the website, all 29 or so pages?

I am 100% behind this and, even though AI says that it's her choice and not mine, I have blatantly stated that I will not have sex with her until we are both in the clear. At which point, it is going to be her choice as to whether or not she wants to share herself with me again.

It is not my choice to engage in sexual activity with my wife. It IS my choice to refuse to sleep with her if I could potentially have a disease.

Except for how I've already done that. Like a total a-hole.

Here we are. I've got my list of EPs, and Markos and the Bear on my back, so let's make this count.

Also, I'm really starting to like you guys.

My EPs. (Please help me add to this if you can. I'm open to suggestions and additions. I've also shown/read this to AI, and she approves... but I think more can be added)

- Leave my current place of employment
- Willingly take STD test (scheduled for tomorrow morning)
- Voluntarily submit to a polygraph test
- Inform AI if I am contacted by offending females, in any way, immediately (done and will continue)
- Invest in at least 15 hours of UA on a weekly basis
- Find and employ an appropriate outlet for my frustration, anger, and excess energy (looking at BMX biking or Skateboarding)
- Change cell phone # and only give to select contacts that AI approves of (done)
- Vet my book collection of any offensive/disrespectful material that will not directly help my marriage to AI* (done)
- Lessen my online presence (i.e.: blog, FB, Twitter, etc.)(done)
- Make my cell phone available to AI upon her request at any time, for any reason (done)
- Remove anybody from Facebook that may pose a threat to the marriage (done)
- Remove anyone from cell contact that may pose a threat to the marriage (done)
- DO NOT engage in any personal relationships with members of the opposite sex
- DO NOT share ANY personal information with members of the opposite sex
- DO NOT add any females to Facebook or any social media site without AI's approval
- DO NOT send ANY emails to members of the opposite sex without AI reading and approving of them first
- IMMEDIATELY Provide AI with any and all passwords to email, social media, websites, banking information, cell phone, financial information, etc. (done)
- DO NOT have ANY contact, FOR LIFE, with any of the offending females, or anyone I was in an intimate relationship with before or during my marriage to AI.
- DO NOT flirt, help, or be excessively nice to any members of the opposite sex, with the exception of AI
- DO NOT attend ANY place (convention, reading, meeting, dinner, etc.) alone that may present a threat to the marriage
- DO NOT contact ANY member of the opposite sex via email, Facebook, Twitter, Text, Phone, DM, PM, etc. unless for business or professional purposes
- DO NOT vet, hide, or delete any emails, texts, PM, DM, etc., before AI's approval
- DO NOT put any projects, assignments, jobs, ideas, etc., before the wife and kids.
- DO NOT give cell phone number to anyone unless AI approves
- DO NOT take cell phone to the bathroom or outside for a smoke without AI's approval
- DO NOT compliment people excessively
- DO NOT use terms of endearment with anyone but AI and my children

There are a ton more, I'm sure, but these were the ones (in a list that had more *promises* than EPs,) that we agreed were crucial. My original list, with the aforementioned promises, was actually 2 full pages long, with in columns.

*AI approves of me getting rid of all of this material. I am relieved to have it out of the house.

We sat on the back deck and had some great conversations tonight. She cried about having to submit to the STD tests, and I held her and told her I was sorry for doing this to her. We spoke at length about the fact that this entire thing is my fault, and that I put her in this shameful and horrible position.

We listened to music and had great conversations about the kids and potential hobbies that I could partake in to redirect my need for accolades and the gratification I get from "the chase" and the way people respond to my excessively friendly and flirtatious nature.

She also told me I was a fake and a liar and handed me so many goddamned insults that I couldn't possibly write them here for fear of setting my computer screen on fire. And I didn't blink. I took every single one. I asked her for more and agreed with her 100%. We went for a walk earlier and basically agreed that our anniversary, which is about 3 weeks away, is completely ruined. We talked about our future together, and renewing our vows if this works and we (read: I) make the effort to prove myself.

And then she asked me questions about my relationship with the POSOW, and I told her absolutely everything with great detail. I left nothing out. From our first interaction to the last. I told her about all of the "future" plans we had made, and exactly how I felt every step of the way.

And then she tore more strips off me. And I deserved it and took it. I'm still taking some via text. Because she's right. I put her here. I did this.

And I'm still of the mind that I'm going to grab this relationship by the horns and "love" it right.

I got the shipping confirmation that SURVIVING AN AFFAIR and FALL IN LOVE, STAY IN LOVE are on their way. I'm still working through HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS, and ordering another copy of the workbook, and AI is reading currently LOVE BUSTERS.

And now I'm going to join my wife in bed and tell her that I love her and that I will protect her and this relationship. And then I'm going to do everything I can to make her feel secure and loved for the rest of our lives.

That's right, twinkletoes.

I would change all old email accounts and only have joint emails and facebook with AI or get off all social media all together.

What about no Internet at all?
No cell phone?

You need to get rid of all conditions that allowed your affair. If it was texting get rid of texting.

TRT,

You are getting top-notch triage advice here, keep following it.


Now, I'm going to throw out some rehab;

Get your preventative measures in line, but while you have all this time on medical leave... you and AI should also be getting childcare, and getting out for some UA time.

UA time should be pleasant for both of you. Take the opportunity to brainstorm some ideas with your wife, and PoJA some activities.


In the midst of all of this work, you should also be making UA time of 20-30 hours each week. It's not just part of your marital recovery, it is the most important part from here until you stop breathing.

Great start TRT. It's good to see a wayward starting to get it.

BH, and HHH got a few of the things I thought about when I read through your list. There is one other thing I would like to address though.


THIS IS ON YOU, NOT THEM. YOU are the one who needs to change, not the people around you. You can't control what other people do, or how they "react". Flirting is only okay when you are single. Do you flirt with men as well? Probably not, because flirting is a part of COURTING. That is the biggest hole you have in your weak boundaries.

Have you read anything about Just Compensation? I think that since most of your affairs were conducted online, you need to get rid of social media altogether. This is a danger to your marriage, and it needs to go. You need to do everything within your power to make up for, and protect your wife and marriage from YOUR actions.

You are one lucky man to have a loving wife who would even consider forgiving you, and attempting to recover your marriage. It's gonna take a lot of work, and time, but you can get there.

I have made a few suggestions. You are a grown man, husband, and father. You do not need to use social media at all. We all lived fine without it (and I'm sure I'm much younger than you and I do just fine too).

Alis: I use social media as part of my vocation and to promote my work. Ditching social media all together is something AI and I talked about, and decided that it should be suspended, not eradicated.

I'm keeping texting because AI and I text to each other all the time.

I haven't read much of anything regarding Just Compensation, but will look into it more. Any links/suggestions?

As for the quote about "the way people react to my flirtatious... etc.", that was in reference to a conversation between myself and AI. It was decided/discussed that the way people respond is a direct result of the fact that I do this at all. I am aware that the onus is on me. Not them. Flirting with anyone but AI is not okay under any circumstances.

What else? Bring it on. I'd love to have something I can finalize and present to AI. Also, should I make a "legit" signed copy and have it witnessed? What's the protocol for things like this?

Does anyone here use ANY literature that *isn't* Harley and/or MB that they find useful? Curious.

That's a good list, TRT. It'll be even better when you & she have gone over it together & she's on-board.

Re: just compensation, http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html

In the months after my affair, I read lots of stuff. I didn't find anything that was as succinct or practical as SAA, although there are other books ("Boundaries in Marriage" is one that's popular; there are others.)

But you can't read your way out of where you're at, nor read your way to a better relationship with your wife. Once you learn about EPs and Emotional Needs, the main thing is to stick to the former, and meet the latter (and express your own in appropriate, non-demanding ways).

I noticed from AI's posts that one of the things that cuts her is how you've spoken positively about the latest OW. That has to change on your part. At some point, you need to see her for what she was: an opportunist who, figuratively speaking, made a choice to mug your wife from a blind alley, steal her purse, cut her face, and kick her in the teeth while she was down. None of that excuses your choices, of course. But you've really gotta ask yourself why you chose to blind yourself to that ethical black hole on her part.

The answer, of course, is that you'd gotten just as blind. You saw what you wanted to see & chose to see in OW. But now you're snapping out of that, right? So you need to start seeing her like she was. She was no one you'd want your daughter to be, and nobody of the sort that you'd want your son to hook up with.

Yeah, she was nice to you. You made it easy for her. You threw attention her way, and she didn't have to worry about your mortgage or feeding your kids or doing your family's laundry or getting the brakes repaired or helping your children with their math homework or taking them to the dentist or any of that crap, so she could throw attention your way. That's not real, though -- that's an artificial, fantasy-existence right there. It's completely unsustainable in real life. And you bought into it, huh? Just like I did.

It took me months to drift all the way out of that fog. I hope you can get yourself squared away more quickly.

P.S. -- Internet? Maybe for your job, with your wife's approval & knowledge of all passwords, and with a keylogger that she controls. But Facebook? Uh-uh. My advice: Close your account. You need to be focusing on what's going on inside your home anyway, and with your EPs and your UA time goals, you just don't have time to pee away on Facebook anyway.

What sort of career do you have? I can't help but wonder if your career choice itself needs to change, if it involves Facebook and twitter.

I understand your concerns and have dialed back so much as to close several accounts and limit my presence online to that of reasercher and "viewer", not commenter.

As for my career, it's not imperative to disclose that information in order to save my marriage. It is also too personal and identifying.

Gloveoil: (I'm curious as to the origin of that name) You're speaking VOLUMES as to how this program and my life in marriage should work. I feel like printing out every post you submit and workinging them into a mission statement of sorts. Thank you.

RTR, I'm a weekend center fielder (unfortunately one with a 2nd-baseman's arm).

Don't shortchange anything HerpapBear tells you either.

I'm taking my wife to Florida for our 20th anniversary, so I won't be around for a few days.

I hear you've got an anniversary coming up. In the grand scheme of things, no, it probably won't end up as your or your wife's favorite one, but I wouldn't write it off either. Do it up right.
//

^^^^^^^^

Do not be cavalier about this upcoming anniversary. This is a place and time to walk the walk of marriage recovery with no expectations on her. Do something entirely different and memorable with her that can make a load of deposits in her lovebank. Go over what her emotional needs are and take charge of planning something that will put her at ease in your company. If you're accustomed to going out to dinner or something - change it up. Take the time to consider her favorite recreational activities and go river rafting, or hiking to a water fall. Start coming up with a plan though that requires the effort one would expect of major soul renovation that you are embarking on.

What about having joint facebook and twitter with AI?

Joint emails?

Got the STD test today. Hurt like a [censored], but I bet my wife hurts more.

Told my wife's cousin about my infidelity today as well, because she showed up at the Doc's office. Figured I'd just get to it. She immediately went out to AI in the car and hugged the crap out of her. She's beginning to develop a support system.

Spending as much time with AI as possible and depositing some MAJOR Love Bank goodness. The kids are driving us both nuts, but it's nothing like the epically fertile Papa Bear and Markos, so I can't complain. not losing track of the goal here. I have to get AI through this and start building our marriage.

Still waiting on Surviving An Affair to show up, but I'm reading HN, HN and LB as much as possible.

Back to playing with the kids while AI feeds the baby to sleep. Then it's more Deposits and Affirmations.

Twinkletoes. :roflmao:

Anyone have any advice as per eating and numb feelings in the BS? She's eating very little, and I'm all over her with niceness and love, but she's just not hungry. Day one was anger and sadness, Day 2 was anger, and today is numbness and a zombie-like state. We've talked about it, and we're both concerned. I'm love banking all over the place, and while that's great, I'd like advice as to what I can do to help her more.

What say you?

My friend,

She is in shock!

What she is experiencing is normal!

It will take months (6-12) for her physical condition to feel more normal.

I've never seen anyone experience such a huge loss and feel hungry. I've actually seen several betrayed spouses (that have lost a child) describe the angst/emotions associated with betrayal as far worse than the angst/emotions associated with the loss of their child.

You have a great deal of work to do, and following through with this work will do more for your wife than anything else you can possibly think of, OK!

Yes, but that can come after you get MB under your belt.
One of my favorite non-MB books is Passionate Marriage. It's quite didactic and takes effort to slog through. I do not recommend you buy that book until you've got a year of MB based recovery. Passionate Marriage will not address recovery from infidelity at all.
Having said that, it's one of my favorite relationship books. Mostly because it opened my eyes to various crucibles offered by marriage as an integrity growing opportunity/ process.

When it comes to recovery from adultery, no other literature is as useful as the MB program.

Keep your eye on the prize, Mable.

Bear: I figured as much. The shock of something like this is reportedly worse than anything. And if what Harley says is in fact the case, she's absolutely broken.

I'm keeping up the deposits and taking care of all of the kid and house stuff. We homeschool the kids, so I'm trying to learn AI's curriculum, slowly. I want to help as much as possible.

Pepper: Got it. Start with MB and eventually branch out to polish things up. Focus on this.

Also, how many nicknames am I going to have after this? Lol.

AI is having moments of lucidity. We've been able to have conversations about things other than this event, and even when it comes up I'm extremely honest and forthright. Historical honesty, as embarrassing as it is, can't possibly be worse than what she's going through.

It's going to be a long and hard road, but I'm in it for the long haul. Keep on truckin'.

This is the exact reason Dr. Harley recommends for spouses to go to their doctor and get AD's and or anxiety meds and sleep aide if needed.

Brain: We discussed the possibility of a sleep aide, but as a breastfeeding mother, we don't know how it would affect the baby. More research needs to be done.

She's sleeping in this morning.

It's time for me to clean the house and kill the laundry.

Okay, I must ask again.

I cannot count the number of times I have seen HerPapaBear ask "formerly" wayward spouses on this site if they own and have read Surviving an Affair. After being on the site for years. And the answer is NO! We have a surprising number of people who show up here and talk a lot and yet never become familiar with Dr. Harley's materials. Those marriages do not recover.

Have you watched Dr. Harley's video?
Have you read the How to Survive Infidelity section of the website?
Do you have a copy of Surviving an Affair, yet?

If you need social media for your work, change jobs, or hire someone to take care of that for you.

Social media is mostly a way to bond with hundreds of people at once. Right now and for the next 2-5 years you need to focus on bonding only with your wife and children. One of your big problems has been bonding too freely with everybody. The overly friendly nature needs to change, as you've already acknowledged.

If you are going to "suspend" Facebook, I wouldn't suspend it for anything less than two years. But really, I would ditch it altogether.

If you try to bargain over the boundaries that people suggest here, it's not a very good sign that you guys are going to make it. You have to be "all in."

I am trying to help you learn what characteristics people have who make it. You can pick your odds. I have seen more than one marriage here that did not make it because the unfaithful spouse would not give up social media.


Maybe it's just me, but witnessing, signing, etc. doesn't mean much. Your vows were witnessed, and your marriage license was signed.

Presenting your plan to your wife is good, but in my opinion, presenting the plan to her is not a milestone. Instead, it's an opportunity for feedback: "Honey, this is what I am going to do. What else do you suggest? What else do you need?" Give her everything she asks for on this count.

And then, the point is not to have it written out, but to DO it, of course. Always remember that words mean nothing, actions mean everything.

I agree with Markos's opinion.

Just a quick response before I take the family out for fun time:

Re: the video - Yes, I've watched it. It cleared a lot of my questions up and made me understand things a little better.

Re: The website - Yes, I've been reading and rereading that section. It's opened my eyes to how my wife feels, but I know I will never fully understand. But I know what I MUST do.

Re: The book - I received my shipping notice the day before yesterday. It should be here today it tomorrow, at which point I'll dive right in. For now, I'm reading in my off time and spending the rest of my time with AI and the kids.

And now I'm off to do just that.

My H and I have been together for 31 years - we dated for 6 years and have been married for 25 years.

He lied to me for 29 out of our 31 years together. He does not seem to be lying to me know, but then again, I'll really never know. He's "transparent," but as I learned, complete transparency is a fiction. If someone wants to do something covertly, they can and they will.

The book, **edit** (you can find it easily on the web), is what enabled him to change. We found Marriage Builders D-Day; bought and read all the books and CDs; counseled with the Harleys (he lied to our counselor, by the way); and went to individual counseling. Nothing helped, but this book.

Unfortunately, even though my H has changed, nothing will ever restore my trust. I feel as if I became infected by doubt, and that suspicion is now a chronic illness I will always suffer.

If you are a liar, STOP. ALL. LYING.

Read the book to find out why you do it. It becomes harder and harder to lie the more you know about how it happens.

Good luck.

BV

BV: Thank you for sharing this. It confirms my worries, but also makes me want to try harder. I'll make a point of looking into this book. I come from the school of thought that you have to look at all angles before choosing your path. My focus is on MB right now, but both my BS and myself have resolved to work on ourselves when this initial (and long) period is over.

Thank you for sharing this. And your signature speaks volumes. Thank you.

Awesome, good to hear it, trt.

When the book arrives, we'll start nagging you to read it.

Reading is one step up from talking.

Doing is several steps up from both of those, of course.

Really working MB, REALLY WORKING IT, will change anyone for the better.

Think about it. Even the simplest requirement of MB basics, such as RADICAL HONESTY requires that we be honest with ourselves first, and likewise honest with our spouse. This RH requirement will build the integrity muscles.

You and your wife will be working on yourselves while working, REALLY WORKING, the MB program.

The best thing about this natural MB growth potential?
You don't need to waste any time delving into your past searching endlessly for "Why am I like this?"

Navel gazing is discouraged because it is:

Not necessary
Not productive
Is a diversion away from the needs of the marriage
Is not generous or empathetic towards your spouse

My learning how to BE a better wife has taught me more about my own flaws and weaknesses than any navel gazing exercises.

You will find, Barnaby, that after your marriage is recovered and you are a mean/lean/ MB machine that there is very little "working on yourself" left to do.

But, don't trust me on this, live it yourself.
Then, pass it along to others who will follow you.

Maybe it's time to change your school of thought a little bit, because so far it hasn't been working well!

We don't want you to get into analysis paralysis. We have here a working plan. It addresses the issues you have raised. We know what it is like to watch people take forever to get moving, and what happens to their marriages when they do, so we want to encourage you to get started working the plan here as soon as possible. We also know that people here who have worked the plan as a couple have recovered their marriages.

Barnaby Jones, television detective. A "long looker and a slow thinker."

Bartleby the Scrivener, character in a Melville short story. Someone who "...would prefer not to."

Be Barnaby.

BV

MaritalBliss - I think he meant he is writing his no-contact letter .....not exposure letter....

WOW!! I've said almost, if not all, of these things. Holy carp...

As long as I don't have to be Barney...

New update. I've deactivated my FB, G+, and Twitter accounts. Feeling a little more free.

Good. What was AI's reaction?

Here you go, trt. This is you main objective.

And now I no longer have any blogs or any social media accounts whatsoever.

This and my 2 email addresses are my ONLY Internet presences at all. And after I take out all of the important things I need from both of those, I will be deleting them as well and starting a new one that my wife will have FULL access to. And when I create a "backup" account for that one (ie: for password recovery and the like) I will use HER email account as said backup.

I feel free, and she's very satisfied.

Go take a look at her thread. The last sentence.

Now I can focus on HER and HER ALONE. With NO distractions whatsoever.

What you should do right now is click on her username and then click on profile. Then click on ignore this user, or whatever it says. Have her do the same.

Neither one of you has any business being on or reading each other's thread.

BTW, good job so far. I hope you realize just who you have responding to you. You couldn't pay for better assistance than what you are receiving right now simply for asking. Don't take it for granted. You're in the best hands you could possibly be to save your marriage.

I don't say that lightly.

Wes, they should be reading each others' threads. They should not post on each others' threads.

Obviously I completely missed something then.

I know - I did the same thing.

Considering I never have seen suggested what I said do, I feel like an idiot. Sigh....

LOL! And I said that too! Wes, you're doing great. It's good for posters to see the interaction on their spouse's thread, but they shouldn't post and create a distraction on the thread. It makes sense when you think about it.

I am about to do something I have never done before .... Post a link about FR to a wayward spouse.

FR = false recovery

Link to FR thread

This is an experiment, Mortimer, and I have hopes you will use the info on the linked thread wisely.
By that I mean, use the info to improve your chances of recovery by avoiding dumb rookie mistakes.
If I see that this thread helps you avoid mistakes, I might continue to share it with other waywards still waiting to come out of their rat hole.


Pay attention to why it has been proven time and time again that a waywards words carry no currency.
Actions alone are the measuring tool we've come to value in marital recovery.

Do not over-intellectualize this.
You know what K.I.S.S. means, don'cha?

There is a PLAN for recovery. Just do it.

Jesus, that FR page is brutal.

I appreciate the link and will go through it more to see any warning signs as to whether or not I'M still in a fog, but I can't help but feel that a WH who *isn't* 100% would glean too much information that would help them lie more.

Like I said, I appreciate it, but I also think that that kind of information might be dangerous.

Also wanted to update that I'm (willingly) losing my two remaining emails in favor of one that will be merged with AI's, and that I've told her mother. In person. THAT, I believe, could have quite possibly been more uncomfortable than an unwanted aenema. But it had to be done.

Off to write a letter to my parents to tell them what kind of monster they raised...

Btw... Mortimer?

Clang clang rattle bing bang
Gonna make my noise all day!
Clang clang rattle bing bang
Gonna make my noise all daaay!

Also, AI and I were talking about computer usage. I don't want to get more detailed than the following, but I write. I want to eventually continue writing, but have some safeguards in place that will assure her that everything is above board.

Suggestions?

Oh good, you're still here! Keep it up!

Telling your parents-in-law and your parents: good job. I salute you!

Writing and computers: do your writing on a computer that is not connected to the internet. No network card, no wireless adapter. Do your internet usage on a computer in the living room (or kitchen) where it will always be seen in the presence of your wife.

Can you and AI get some days away for just you and her, away from the kids and everyone? A little vacation?

Thanks, Markos. I can use her laptop and have her password/disable the Internet.

Brain: we talked about it, and we'd like to, but we don't have the support system, funds, or anyone we trust to take the kids. It'll be years before we can leave our kids with someone for more than a few hours, unfortunately. We never got to have a honeymoon, either.

That's a good solution as long as your wife is comfortable with that.


Find a homeschool group in your area. There are usually some online groups that meet for book sales and/or support meetings. There are also co-op groups you can seek out....

The reason I mention this?

For building a support network!

You can usually find some very responsible, homeschooling, young ladies that will take a day, partial day, etc and baby sit for you. This worked effectively for us throuhgout our marriage. And our daughter (18) has been sitting for a family with 7 children, all still under the age of 12, for 3 years now. Homeschooling circles are a great way to build a support network.

As for overnighters? not as necessary if you are taking some time out while using a sitter.
The remaing hours of UA time will need to come from creative time management.
The most important thing we did; had a consistent bed time for the little ones. We had them tucked in every night by 8:00 and then the evening was our time together. This allows for 2 hours of UA time every night of the week. A nice 4+ hour stretch with a baby sitter once a week.

You can also look into youth programs. All of my kids go to a local youth group at a church not far from our house. DD14 and DD12 go one night, and DD5 goes another while DD14 volunteers to help with the little ones on that night.

That's two hours each of those nights.

Still here.

Working hard at all the ENs and being positive. Got SaA in the mail today, which AI promptly stole. I got a chance to dig in after the kids went to bed. I feel really good about this book. Will make more reading time tomorrow.

Told my parents and my brother about the affair via email, last night. I received their replies this morning/afternoon. Seems that they weren't really that surprised, but that they're also rooting for our marriage. To me, that's a red flag. I must have been more of a [censored] than I thought.

Had a few arguments with AI this weekend. I, in true TRT fashion, exhibited some angry outbursts. I have to control that crap behavior, that's for sure. If ever there was a deal breaker, it's my overbearing need for control. I also should approach situations differently, and stop expecting that AI is going to make ME feel better when I'm down. It's not fair. She's hurting a lot more than I am.

But we had a lot of really great "breakthrough" conversations.

Oh, and my mother in law shoved a bible under my nose tonight. I'm not a prayin' man in the least, but that Proverbs 5 sure does pack a punch. I'll post it later if anyone is interested.

Sleep now.

Anyone have links to advice on controlling sensitivity and outbursts?

Get Dr. Harley's "Lovebusters" it has an excellent chapter on AO.

Also listen to this from Dr. Harley.
Anger Mgmt 101

Another thing that helped me with my AO that Dr. Harley told me "No one makes you have an angry outburst Brain, you have that control"

Awesome. Thank you. I have Love Busters and will take it on right after SAA.

I also found another blog that I forgot about. It's gone now. Again, the sense of freedom that comes with all of this is incredible. I'm actually reading a book I've long wanted to read, but haven't had time for since all of my focus was elsewhere. That, and the fact that I've decided to reread To Kill A Mockingbird, make me feel like I've been missing out on something by being a giant d-bag.

What's the general opinion regarding Atticus Finch's portrayal as the ideal Father/man, on these boards? I've heard pray tell that folks tend to believe that his character is the best example of how an honest man should present himself. I like that idea and have always loved his character.

Well, I've read TKAM a couple of times, and I liked the character overall. But Atticus Finch is a single father, making it alone and raising his children alone as best he can. He's an independent man.

My thinking is that married men need to measure themselves by their wife's ruler. Men and women are very different and see things very differently and see a lot of things that the other misses. When a husband parents in a way that BOTH he and his wife think is a great idea, then he is MUCH more likely to be a good father. Moreover, every child and every family is different. Your children share your DNA and your wife's DNA, as well as a common history with you and your wife. Because of this, nobody on this earth is more uniquely suited to understand your children and successfully help them build character than you and your wife. Your perspective plus your wife's perspective is going to be more suited for your children than just about anything anybody else says.

Kudos on getting the book Surviving an Affair. I see you are DOING and not just TALKING, and that's a good sign.

Okay, that said, now let me take you to task on angry outbursts.

You have no idea what hell your wife goes through when you have an angry outburst. Against her, against your children, even just against a third party or an inanimate object, it probably scares the crud out of her, removes all sense of security, completely obliterates the possibility that she can be in love with you and be fulfilled in your marriage.

Add to that the hell she's experienced from your unfaithfulness and I'm sure you will agree that she does not deserve to go through this again, EVER.

HerPapaBear and his wife have commented that if he had had even ONE angry outburst, disrespectful judgment, or selfish demand during their recovery, that they would not have recovered. There is no way his wife could have stood that after his betrayal.

Marriage Builders is about filling your account in your wife's Love Bank. That cannot be done if you knock holes in the bottom of the bank: love busters. And your wife is only going to become MORE sensitive to those over time as she comes to grips with what has happened.

I'm going to gently suggest we stop talking about Atticus Finch and start talking about therightthing eliminating all angry outbursts in his life for the rest of his life. That'll take you 80% of the way to being a great father.

Dr. Harley writes and talks a LOT about Angry Outbursts. They are serious, and he says they cannot be tolerated in marriage. I'm sure you can see why.

An argument is a nuclear war. There is no way to win; the only way to win is not to play. You have a closet full of nuclear weapons that include demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts, and if there is even the potential that you MIGHT use any one of them, then you and your wife will never negotiate and have a good marriage, and instead you will have a permanent cold war. And every time you set one of these off there will be fallout for what will feel like a thousand years.

When a conflict comes up (and by conflict I mean any difference of opinion!) you have got to make it your highest priority not to use any demands, disrespect, or angry outbursts. They must be avoided AT ALL COSTS. Even if the problem has to remain unsolved for a little while.

Listen to the radio clips that BrainHurts posted, and in fact, become a daily listener of Dr. Harley's show, because he talks about angry outbursts all the time. You will learn that you need to:
* Take full responsibility for your angry outbursts: nobody can make you angry. It's all on you.
* Practice relaxation every day so that you can learn to relax in response to frustration.
* Practice thinking about things that frustrate you while staying relaxed so that you can learn to problem solve instead of blow up.
* Seek out effective professional anger management therapy if you can't stop being angry.

Angry outbursts can and must be completely ELIMINATED. Not just minimized, made infrequent, controlled, hidden, etc. ELIMINATED.

More reading material for you on abuse and control, and angry outbursts:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5505_qa.html

Go down the left sidebar and click all the links. 23 articles in all in the "How to Overcome Love Busters" section, most of them are about abuse and control, and angry outbursts. Read them all, even if you think from the title they don't apply directly to you, because there is good information in there that you need anyway.

If you read the first couple chapters of Love Busters, you may learn just how devastating these "breakthrough" conversations were to your wife. It is typical for a love busting husband to feel that he and his wife "finally got somewhere" after an argument in which problems were laid out on the table, while his wife retreats and reels from the pain, bleeding and dying emotionally.

The opening chapter of Love Busters so resembles my early marriage that it is extremely painful to me to read it. I can't imagine what it must do to my wife.

There are ways of getting your problems on the table and resolved together that don't involve arguments. Arguments (nuclear wars) must be avoided AT ALL COSTS. Don't put the problems on the table until you can learn to do it without demands, disrespect, and anger.

What did you two argue about?

Along with markos's excellent article ideas I found some more clips, enjoy.
Radio clip on AO

Radio clip on AO
Radio clip on Dr. Harley's view on anger

Hey, you said what I was thinking.

Listen to Marcos.
He knows what he's talking about.

So wait.. your focus went from blogging and facebook to reading Non-MB material? This helps AL how?

rightthing, i too, had a pretty big online presence. i have a couple of professional blogs, twitter, google+, etc, presented regularly at conferences, wrote, had a huge reading list in my RSS feed, etc. i found most of my life satisfaction from my work. but you know what? i realised that what *should* be most important to me is my marriage. i spent a lot of time at work, and when i was home, doing work-related things online.

i have now stopped almost all of this, and guess what? i don't miss any of it! sure, sometimes i feel sad, when my colleagues are talking of upcoming conferences, and my CV comes to a bit of a standstill; i won't be there to attend the tweetmeet and the like, but the satisfaction i am getting from my marriage by spending my time with my H is MUCH greater. getting satisfaction from acquaintances is nothing compared to getting satisfaction and admiration from the person you love.

i am happy to hear that you are cutting the extraneous stuff from your life and committing to your W. leaving IB behind isn't easy at first, but it gets easier and easier as your pleasure comes from your M.

Hey, rightthing,

I'm a little worried about you guys since neither one posted today. Is everything okay?

Any arguments?

Thanks for the concern, Markos. We're doing well (or as well as one can do given the circumstances). I chose not to post today and instead focus on AI and the kids. Jamming as much love money in there as possible and pounding away at the issues I'm facing with regard to bad old habits and the such.

No worries. We're on the road to recovery. Admittedly, the road looks long, but we're on it and walking along.

Thanks for the concern.

Glad to hear it, rightthing. That's a good reason not to post.

Any arguments?

Nope. No arguments. Keeping everything in check. No room for any AO's at all. Anyways, it's totally not worth it to be pissed and grumpy for any period of time. I'm just going to focus on the good, and do everything I can to make this woman feel safe.

Excellent!

(Would she disagree, if she were posting? One of my common mistakes for our first year of MB was to believe that many of my AOs weren't AOs.)

Markos: She'd agree. We've had quite a good few days now. Honest talk and understanding. Things have been very pleasant.

I'm still busting my a$$, but I expect that I'll be doing this for a long while. I'll update more later.

<~~~ Me

But, you learned. You took the like a man !
I now consider you , Marcos, to be the best resource when it comes to helping other husbands learn/recognize/change AO habits.

Fact is, you (anyone & everyone) can make hundreds of love unit deposits, and !wham! shoot it all to hell with some well aimed ugly/vicious angry outburst.

Any one of us can slip up and make an occasional AO. If we do, the MB thing to do is to apologize immediately. And not to do a repeat performance.

We've had a really good couple of days. Keeping busy (together) during the day while I'm on leave, and then spending at least 2-4 hours a night, alone. Sometimes more.

We both know that this is going to take quite some time, but we're also pretty stoked about the potential that we see for the future.

No AO's at all, lately. Just the two that made me realize that I'm ridiculous, and that's it.

Btw, the first argument was because I found her wedding ring in a box bound for a thrift shop (a total accident on her part and stupid paranoid reaction on my part), and me losing my sh*t in the mall because I exhibited independent behaviour and was totally embarrassed by my own actions when she called me out on it.

She's called me out on stuff since then, and I've taken it like a trooper. Even apologized for my actions immediately and tried to make good without argument.

We've found out a lot about each other lately. In all honesty, and one of you club weilders is gonna come a knockin', but I'm thinking I missed out on quite an amazing woman while I was off being a total douche-canoe. I'm looking forward to being the husband she deserves.

Self-awareness is pretty scary when you start looking at the mirror you've been avoiding.

But it's also pretty neat to put into practice once you start getting the hang of it.

I remember, in probably our 2nd MC session, within a couple of weeks after D-Day, how our counselor told me I was crashing the conversations my wife & I were having with her, because I was talking in an aggressive manner that the counselor said she had actually found "very intimidating." And I'd had no idea -- I'd been so focused on getting my 2 cents in & on not being misunderstood, etc., that I hadn't been making any effort to step outside myself & see how I was coming off looking like & sounding like to others -- most notably my spouse, and at a time when she needed more understanding from me than I'd ever offered her previously.

So keep one foot outside yourself.

Part of my problem is I'm assertive at work and I have to take it down a few notches at home.

Sometimes I forget and treat DH like I do my coworkers. When he starts responding with 'Yes Ma'am' I know I need to relax.

Hehe... we have someone else around here who knows about the whole PoJA/IB/AO trifecta whilst shopping.

Any of you other wayward have a moment where you felt like this were becoming real and you did a horrible thing? I *know* I did something absolutely terrible, but the past two days have seen me feeling so miserable about my actions that I don't really know what to do but plow through.

And AI is confused as to where she's supposed to be in all of this. Should we start moving forward? Should we start recovering? Should we keep rehashing the same painful things? Someone has to have a suggestion or something... (I'm looking at you, Gloveoil)

I don't do generalities too well. Let's get more specific:

--What are the two of you rehashing?
--What do you talk about?
--How much time are you spending together?
--And what do you do together during this time spent together?

Are we talking about Melodylane and the lettuce?

I'll never tell... I can't... I just about choked on mile-high hair and aquanet!


TRT -

You shouldn't be rehashing your affair. Have you offered every detail your wife has asked for?

After the details of the affair are known, it should not be brought up again. Doing so only serves to drag you both back to day 1 of recovery.

And THAT is the advice of Dr. Willard F. Harley Jr., Ph.D. - founder of this program and owner of this website.

Give her every detail she asks for, submit to a polygraph if you must, but beyond that any "rehashing" of the past is a waste of precious time you could be utilizing in increasing each others' LB$ balances.

That DOESN'T mean that you should throw that in her face, though. You have to be WILLING to answer her questions. She will have to come to the realization that bringing the affair up is bad for your marriage at some point.

That is all you can do: plow forward. Either she will choose to recover with you, or not, and you have to respect that choice.

I heard MrWondering say here once to a wayward that when you had your affair, at some point you deliberately smashed your moral compass. During recovery, you will find you've been given a new one. It sounds like you are acquiring this, and facing up to a lot of the unpleasant things you've done.

Guilt is a good motivator.


Once everything has been said about the affair, you should not keep rehashing it. Dwelling on the mistakes of the past does not make for a good intimate conversation.

Please answer these!

Douche-canoe...


Er, I mean TRT (just kidding bud!),


So, when you say you've been "rehashing painful things," do you mean that you are recounting painful life experiences to each other? Experiences OTHER than the affair?

That, sir, can not only be expected, but is a GOOD thing. This is a part of Radical Honesty - particularly Historical Honesty.



For instance, as part of my "all-in" for recovery after my wife's affair, I revealed to her that I had been molested as a child. A fact she never knew even after being together for 13 years.


Take note; I don't allow my childhood experiences to control my adult decisions - but that was a particular piece of Historical Honesty that was difficult for me to reveal.

Still here. Will find time to post progress in a bit. We don't have a lot of UA time, and we're maximizing it as best as we can, so I don't post. I'd rather spend time with AI.

Our anniversary was yesterday. There were painful moments, but it was a calm and wonderful time with my wife. I'll explain more later, as there were many moments that hurt and helped.

Reading these threads constantly, though. The inspiration is amazing.

trt, perhaps you could stroll over to my WH's thread and kick him in the rear for me?? LOL.

I'm glad to hear you are keeping up with things. And I think everyone has teared up over Gloveoil's "Ordinary Day"

I'm sure you know now how many hours you need. Do you have a plan to adjust your schedule?

Markos: We've laid out a plan for UA time and have even designated activities for those times. We're both really stoked about it, but with the baby feeding on demand, it's a crapshoot. Being home on leave helps, though. We get to eat, smoke, and chat pretty much any time we want. It's helping us both immensely. I'm going to look into extending my leave even more.

RocketQueen: Can you link me to his thread? Now I'm super curious. And yeah, between HPB, GO, and HHH's threads, I'm pretty damned sold that *this* is the lifestyle for us. I'm 100% in and have never been more sure of anything in my life. Now if Markos would link me to HIS story...

His username is kiss and the thread is I want my wife back

Thanks

Glad you stuck around, life is so much more rewarding isn't it?

Life is definitely more rewarding. I'm still working through Love Busters, but I'm struggling with WS feelings that in *did not* anticipate. I don't know if it's withdrawal from the ENs, an overdose of ENs, or just an exacerbation of my existing depression. There's a general, yet heavy, malaise going on in the old brain bucket. And it's starting to affect AI as well.

I NEED to know how to get past this. I'm already on ADs, and have recently upped both meds to double dose.

Any other WS's experience this? Is there a magical fairy that can take it away so I can get back down to business?

I'm trying to explain this to AI. Failing miserably.

Hey dude. Sorry for not responding. Things move quick around these parts, apparently. And kudos for telling such a brutal story in such a beautiful way. "Ordinary Day" was heart breaking.

To answer:

- we've been rehashing the feelings I had for the OW and how I felt about AI (BS) at that time. As well as my goings on while in those few 'lost' months. And everything in between, really. And now *I'm* bringing it up and apologizing like a junkie all over the place.

- normally we talk about everything under the sun, but for the past few days (after a few days of AO's from your truly... which, might I add, have stopped dead after reading the AO chapter in Love Busters) we've been talking about both of our feelings. She doesn't know where I am, but I'm trying to explain the inner insanity.

- we've got around 21 hours scheduled, but it's looking more like less than 15 with all the insano children running around. (I don't know how HPB and SMB do it...)

- when we spend our UA time together, we usually talk about future plans, finances, stuff we want to do, and MB theory. We plan Gin, Scrabble, and have lengthy SF sessions. That's another story for another time that is directly linked to my AD's, and it's also causing a HUGE problem for me psychologically.

Things are noticeably better, but she wants to know what she's supposed to do to bust through the initial stage and zig zag through to recovery, and I want to show her everything I can be, beat the ever living hell out of myself for being such a hurtful [censored], and defeat this depression once and for all.

We both agree that IC is completely out of the question, so I'm basically using y'all as a sounding board.

I also came across OW's phone number in AI's phone (which was a MAJOR trigger for me) she found the date in my phone where I had marked the day my EA went PA (that I have NO IDEA why I put there, and has totally bummed out AI), and I've been reading threads here that are making me think that no matter how hard I work, there's still a possibility that she'll leave me, as she has the right and every reason to, admittedly.

She'll probably be posting something over at her thread soon with more information, as she has a few specific questions for the lot of you to attack.

What say you, random invisible people of the interweb? Am I still foggy, should I talk to Meester Docktor about switching meds? What's the deal? I'm so utterly confused and struggling to beat this back and fulfill AI's ENs.

I am ROYALLY screwing this up. I've broken several EPs, Come close to, or just put my toe in a few AO's, and am REALLY having a terrible time explaining my inner feelings with openness and honesty without sounding like a selfish douchecanoe.

Okay, rightthing,

First off, calm down. Self-flagellation (that means beating yourself up) won't help anything. A lot of wayward husbands and wives, and in fact a lot of husbands in general, make the mistake of trying to be very dramatic about how much they regret what they have done, how wrong they are, etc.

That really doesn't help anything. It's words, not actions. Also, it gets you all excited, which means your adrenaline is flowing, which means you are irrational, which means nothing you do in that state is going to help your situation.

So, put a cork in it.

Next, extraordinary precautions:
You shouldn't be breaking EPs at this point. What did you do?

Next, angry outbursts:
Again, the watchward here is calm down.
HerPapaBear has stated that if he had had even one solitary angry outburst during their recovery, his wife would not have recovered with him. I can't emphasize how serious this is.
This seems to be a recurring problem, so you are going to have to step it up. Do the following for AO education:
* Read this: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3401_angry.html
* Read the AO chapter in Love Busters. (Good, you did this!)
* Listen to Dr. Harley's radio clips on anger management: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2603602

Then, start practicing what Dr. Harley says on this:
* Acknowledge that you and only you are responsible for your angry outbursts, that it is possible for you to always choose a reaction other than anger, even if your wife does something to upset you.
* Begin practicing relaxation every day, a few times a day.
* Once you know how to completely relax, start practicing thinking about situations that frustrate you, while staying completely relaxed and calm.
* If you or your wife ever feels that you are upset DO NOT SAY OR DO ANYTHING. Rule number one is shut up! Nothing you might be thinking of saying or doing in that state will be productive.

You will need to keep after angry outbursts for a long time, so implement AO continuing education:
* Read Love Busters, the whole book
* Pull up the following section of the site: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5505_qa.html
. Read Controlling Husband #1 & #2,
. Angry Outbursts #1 & #2,
. Domestic Violence #1, #2, #3,
. Abusive Marriage #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6
* Become a daily listener of Marriage Builders Radio. You will hear Dr. Harley discuss angry outbursts all the time, and you will be constantly reminded how important this is. If there's a repeat one day, listen to a show from the archives.

Next off, UA time:
* Take your wife out on dates. Get babysitters. Figure out how to make this happen. The quality will be much better if you get out of the house. You can't afford to miss this. Only skip this if your wife isn't willing.
* If children are interfering, schedule more hours. If 21 hours scheduled comes out to less than 15, then shave something else out of your schedule and schedule 25.

Okay, I know why you put this there.

You put it there because it was important to you. It was the biggest mistake of your life, and it hurts like hell for your wife.

Be open and honest about that. No need to claim you don't understand yourself: you were being reprehensible, and we all understand it. Admit the truth, let her process her feelings about it. Give her the space and freedom to react in whatever way she chooses.


Yes, sir, that is absolutely correct. And acknowledging that is important: you need to relinquish any desire to control her, any desire to force an outcome here. Just quietly do the work. Don't have discussions trying to persuade her how important it is to stay together, or whatever. Leave that decision entirely up to her. Communicate to her BY YOUR ACTIONS your willingness to meet her needs, your willingness to PROTECT her (i.e., avoid Love Busters), and your plan to do this for the rest of your life.

She will not feel secure otherwise, and in that case you definitely won't recover.

And don't skimp on any part of the plans here. As you can see, you can't afford it!

Are you on leave from the military?

Do you regularly spend nights away from home?

Also here's a fantastic radio clip on a WH not being able to tell his BW why he had the affair.
Radio clip on How to tell your spouse why you had the affair

Please let me know what you think.

This is from one of your older posts, but I am pulling it up.

You have got to figure out how to solve this problem, now, in a way that your wife is comfortable with. It cannot wait for years.

Stop bringing up the affair. You guys MUST stop rehashing the affair.

You cannot recover without intimate conversation. Read what Dr. Harley has to say about the four friends and four enemies of good intimate conversation:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5056_qa.html


Whatever you are doing, make sure that it is not a miserable experience for her. The conversation needs to be enjoyable, and she needs the chance to open up to you.


You need to understand that this is a marathon, not a sprint. You are not going to create a fantastic marriage two weeks after D-Day. Just start practicing the habits that you will adopt for a lifetime, and patiently wait for feelings to follow.

By the way, according to Dr. Harley, depression in men is typically caused by career. Perhaps you need a change?

Brain: I'll listen to that tomorrow morning. This discussion is my sole focus right now. Just stepping in because she went to the facilities.

Markos: That will not be an option for years. There is no way.

Thank you for the previous posts. I'll be ripping through the material ASAP.

There is a way. You just haven't found it, yet.

Anyway, I had a lot more than just one suggestion.

Several questions I put to you, rightthing. I'm not seeing answers. Just an "I can't do it."

Your recovery is not going to make it if you don't address these issues, and make them iron tight. You can't afford to skimp or to cut corners; you guys are at way too much risk. Don't say "I can't." Put the problem on your brain to think about for an extended period of time. Think about it every day, and don't give up until you have a solution. Otherwise, you are not going to make it.

These are the problems you've got to address, and this is the order I believe you've got to address them in:
Extraordinary Precautions
Angry Outbursts and other Love Busters
the Policy of Undivided Attention

Getting pulverized at work this week, TRT, so hang tight. Let some of Markos' good thoughts sink in. I'll be along with some more thoughts, but prob. not 'til the weekend.

Monstrously terrible conversation last night. I'm not expressing myself properly. Will put everything on hold to read LOVE BUSTERS as soon as possible.

But I got this out of it. AI has added EPs to my list:

No porn
No nights apart
Facebook, twitter and other social media will not be reactivated, and no new social media of ANY sort will be joined, unless there is full POJA agreement in effect, and passwords will be shared
Immediate change of email address and deletion of old accounts
Agreement to take a polygraph in the future at ANY time if spouse feels the need
No new email accounts will be created for ANY reason without informing spouse and sharing passwords
When looking for a job, make effort to find one that does not involve working with computers
Change the settings on desktop to NOT automatically delete history after a certain time
Do not delete Internet history on phone or computers for any reason
Do not delete text conversations, call history, or any other info on phone
No complimenting or sharing personal info with members of opposite sex
No female friends
No hiding purchases or use of money
Account accurately for time
Promptly answer texts and calls from spouse
No lies, of any degree, for any reason
Start exercise and diet plan to help with anger and self-control
Develop boundaries: Do not let people other than your spouse meet your emotional needs
If tempted or attracted to someone else, confess to spouse immediately and institute precautions to avoid the offending party
Reread EP list daily to keep it fresh in your mind
Finish Lovebusters and commit to doing everything possible to prevent any future AOs
Do research into the feelings of a betrayed spouse, to help develop understanding and compassion for spouse's pain
Willingness to be transparent and answer questions about the affair at any time

So I'll formalize this and get going. I'll probably be spending A LOT less time here, as my focus should be on AI and the family. We revisited the EN questionnaires and took them again. Hers haven't changed, but the order has.

Things are so insane right now... this is all so sad. It shouldn't have come to this. I wish I hadn't ever even looked at another female. I'm so sorry, and beginning to understand the pain I put her through, even though I know I'll never fully understand.

For those who are curious, her ENs are:

Honesty and Openness
Conversation
Affection
Family Commitment
Admiration

Hold on there, rightthing.

You are not here just pal-ling around, so far as I can tell. You are here learning the tools you need to build a good marriage. Being here IS focusing on her, unless she has said otherwise.

So I wouldn't leave this forum, okay?

rightthing, looking at your wife's complaints, the love busters are intolerable. So at this point, none of the stuff about meeting emotional needs is going to accomplish anything. You can't fill a bucket full of holes: the Love Busters are holes, and you keep kicking holes in the bucket.

You have got to move forward on eliminating demands, disrespect, and anger immediately. You are going to have to grant her the right to be the judge of this: if she feels like you are being demanding, disrespectful, or angry, YOU ARE. I promise you that she sees this more clearly than you.

An affair is the worst abuse that could possibly happen to someone, but there is absolutely no sense in a betrayed wife or husband recovering a marriage with someone who had an affair and is also an abuser. Such a betrayed spouse needed to get out of the marriage in the first place, and absolutely should not come back unless the marriage can be made completely safe, with no demands, disrespect, or anger at all.

You need to invite her to review you weekly on these three subjects (demands, disrespect, and anger -- get Dr. Harley's workbook and use the worksheets he provides) and get to the point where you don't do anything that she identifies as any of these.

Otherwise, you are not worth recovering with, period.

I suggested earlier that you become a daily radio show listener. Do you intend to do so? You need the free hour of daily counseling Dr. Harley provides.

Therightthing,

Refusal to meet EP's or to denigrate them will negate meeting any EN's. Your wife has zero reason to believe or trust you at this time, due to what you have done.

You said her first EN was "honesty and openness" -> you understand that many of her EP's fall in line with that. It seems you do not wish to follow some of her EP's, despite them being critical to supporting her #1 EN. Why is that.

Frankly, rightthing, I don't believe you are serious any more. When I ask questions and you don't answer, and then come back a few days later and start a new conversation without answering the questions asked, it says "not serious" to me.

I'm identifying for you the roadblocks that are going to prevent your marriage from recovering. They are many of the same road blocks Dr. Harley identified for me! He said until I overcame my angry outbursts, my marriage had "no hope." The same is true of yours, rightthing.

There is no hope here unless you take this seriously.

Would you mind going back and answering the questions I asked? For example, I asked what you did to break Extraordinary Precautions, and I don't see anywhere where you answered. If you will answer the questions, then I'll know we're on the same page, and I can help you.

It looks like:

1. You can't stop having angry outbursts at your wife. You need serious effective anger management therapy. You have demonstrated that you can't just do this by deciding to do it.

I gave you a big, big list of reading material about angry outbursts several posts back. How quickly do you think you can get through this? Because you are running out of time, and currently this appears to be your biggest problem.

2. You are disrespectfully trying to control how your wife feels, instead of respecting the way she feels.

3. You are being demanding about getting the chance to meet your wife's emotional needs. She is not open to having her needs met right now, because of your Love Busters, such as this demand and others like it.

4. You are demanding effort from your wife to repair your marriage. I remind you that you are the one who broke it. She is not likely to feel much enthusiasm or to hold it for long until your track record is long and impeccable.

5. You want to be able to do several things that are not okay with your wife. This is the Love Buster of Independent Behavior. In addition, you are disrespectful to her about her not wanting you to do those things. She feels you should eliminate those things to keep your marriage safe, and you are not being respectful of her feelings. This is the Love Buster of Disrespectful Judgments.

6. You want a postnup, but your wife isn't willing to do this.

7. You have said some things to your wife about expecting her to trust you. That's disrespectful on your part. Her trust is a feeling that she cannot control; you will cause her to feel trust by your actions, not your words. Demanding that she feel trust at this point is a big Love Busters. And saying that if she trusted you she would change how she feels about risky behavior that she is NOT okay with you doing is a Disrespectful Judgment, an attempt to get what you want and think you should have in a very disrespectful way.

8. You are threatening to leave your wife. If you don't want to stay married to her, just shut up and go get an attorney. Such discussions have absolutely no place in respectful marital negotiation.

Therightthing, your children are 1,3,7 and you have been married 7 years. She has spent all of your marriage raising your babies. To suggest a prenup at this time, is a MANIPULATION tactic, because you know that a woman with 3 young children(2 of which are practically babies still) is afraid to leave under such abusive circumstances for fear she'll be out on the street.

EN #3 & #4, Affection and Family Commitment. You have told her that these EN's do not matter to you unless you can consider your wayward ways.

therightthing, if you are wanting a recovered marriage like HerPapaBear's, you might take note of the fact that HPB signed a postnup giving his wife everything in the event of divorce.

Dr. Harley's advice to my wife last year:


http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2495463#Post2495463

So... am I supposed to stay and work my a$$ of, or leave until the anger is under control like Harley suggests?

I'll reread this entire thread and the links provided.

I will make a point to answer your questions honestly, as well.

Along with all of markos excellent advice please listen to these clips from Dr. Harley.
Anger Mgmt 101

You've got to do it all, rightthing. If you can start doing what needs to be done about the anger, then let your wife decide if you should stay or not. Any slips are going to be extremely painful for her.

I'm currently waiting for a callback regarding an appointment at an anger management clinic. I have requested an appointment for next Thursday, as I do not have any money until then. AI will confirm this.

I'm so damned confused.

In the mean time, I'll read everything y'all have pointed out.

Markos, do you have a thread here? If you had anger management problems, do you think your thread will be of benefit to me? What about your wife's thread?

The above link that you gave says: Access Denied.

Did you see this thread with the clips I pointed out?

I do have a thread, but I don't think I really started figuring out anger until I was mostly done posting on that thread! You can click my name to get my posting history, and then on that page there is a "topics created" link that will show not every thread I've posted on, but just the ones I've started.

I think the main benefit from my thread is to see what a man is like when he's all over the map and needs to calm down, get ahold of himself, and work calmly and patiently to rebuild his marriage without demanding that his wife "do her part."

I've suggested abundant reading material up there, and I really, really encourage you to get to listening to the radio show. It sounds like you dwell a lot on what you want your wife to do. If so, I think you'll benefit from some daily education about how to build a marriage your wife is happy with, so that she will be motivated to meet your needs. I do not kid you when I say it took well over a year for stuff to sink in, and those daily radio shows were practically mandatory for me to get it. I was absolutely clueless.

If I remember correctly you can't afford the MB coaching center, correct?

Can you do this?
Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com.

Brain: Yep. I can do that. And thank you for the link. I will investigate further.

Marcos: thank you. I will look up your thread and read everything.

My appointment is set for 5:30pm, next Thursday.

I've also just told AI that I'm done with all of my bullsh*t. It's not working, it's confusing her and hurting her, and it's killing my marriage. So... I'm going back to the start.

Aaaaaand I think I'm done for the day. Dropping rudeness all over the place and I'm not even aware of it. What the hell is wrong with me?

Is there a point where I should take myself away from AI in order to let her have a breather? Should I stay on her and risk the stupidity I'm continually inflicting on her? What?

Aaaaaand I think I'm done for the day. Dropping rudeness all over the place and I'm not even aware of it. What the hell is wrong with me?

Is there a point where I should take myself away from AI in order to let her have a breather? Should I stay on her and risk the stupidity I'm continually inflicting on her? What?

How about staying with her AND stopping the stupidity?

I had a feeling...

Okay.

Yes??

Feelings follow actions.

I'm sorry that I didn't answer this question, Brain.

I just listened to the audio clip you provided. It's quite a tall order, as Harley says, but doesn't seem unreasonable. I sat and took notes while he was talking. I will continue research and commit to my relationship.

I know. I'm going through this thread one post at a time, taking notes and doing everything that y'all have told me to do. I'm also seeing me acting like a total a$$. This is highly embarrassing.

More to come.

As long as you learn from your embarrassment and act upon it you won't lose, my friend.

Have you seen Dr. Harley's new article?
How To Negotiate When You're An Emotional Person

Hey Brain. Again, thank you for the link. I've just listened to this and took 3 pages of notes. I will discuss with AI as to whether or not we will tell our eldest daughter.

Thank you for all of the links you have provided. These radio clips are pretty intense.

Hey Marcos,

On my first or second day, you said the above. I'm rereading my entire thread and taking note. I just wanted to throw something at you that just occurred to me. AI has agreed with my summary of the following:

When I rant and rave at her, what I'm doing is twofold. I'm having an Angry Outburst, and I'm exercising Disrespectful Judgements. I "thought" I was just trying to tell her what I feel, but what I was doing was manipulating her and trying to take the responsibility of her pain off me by making her assuage my guilt and depression.

I was manipulating her as I have always been.
It makes me feel both happy and sick to come to this conclusion. But it's about bloody time.

So my first order of business is to learn to destroy my AO's, and then kill my DJ's, at the same time as fulfilling her EN's (if she will let me or not), and making this relationship a safe place to be.

I have to choose between myself and my family/marriage.

I choose my family and marriage.

I'm about to go print off the 29 pages of columns on infidelity like you told me to. And I will watch the video of Harley speaking about Infidelity again.

Thank you for kicking my a$$... again.

AI has asked that we go to bed, and I have respectfully asked her to let me print off these articles first. She has agreed, though she doesn't think we have enough printer ink. IF that is the case, I will convert them to PDF and put them on my iPhone. Actually, I'll do that as well, regardless of the ink sitch.

Marcos,

When you said read 29 pages of columns, did you mean Surviving Infidelity 1-3, or more than that? Did you actually mean for me to read ALL of the articles on the linked page?

I think that's what I'll do.

To read all the Q&A that are on the side(29 articles) of this Steps to Recover From An Affair

Got it.

Now that you have started taking positive MB steps, are you finding that you are less disposed to indulge yourself with depressive thoughts?

You are on an Odyssey, Homer, a long and eventful and adventurous journey.

Building a new marriage from the ruins will take years. Courage. Fortitude.

Keep a close eye on your attitude. Bad habits will try to sneak back in. When you feel yourself slipping, remember to H.A.L.T.
Check if you are Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired.

Keep posting.

Pepperband,

That was, bar none, the BEST advice I've EVER heard regarding checking myself. Thank you! Wow!

And yes, it's so much easier to be positive right now. I really can't wait until the next time I can show AI that I'm here for her.

Progress, not perfection.

Technical question. Would the past month or so basically equate to a second false recovery? Like, is this day one of recovery attempt #3?

Forgive me, I've been busy and have not kept up.
Has there been any contact of any variety with any OW?
Have you lied this past month?
Have you hidden the truth this past month?

A false recovery means the affair never ended, and/or only took a temporary reprieve.

I've just added almost all q&a articles to the reading list on my iPhone. I'm going to print out the articles about AO's and 6 articles about Abusive Marriage. It makes me really effing sad to realize that I'm a spousal abuser. Really sad.

I'm going to fix this. I have to. I want to.

No. There's been absolutely NO contact with anyone at all, really. I've made myself completely disappear from the lives of everyone save for a few close friends - all of whom are male.

I have lied and I have held back, but I think they were things that I used in my manipulation tactics to lessen my guilt and responsibility to AI and her pain. They obviously count, though.

We've been married 31 years. I used to be abusive with my IB and DJs.
All of us came to this place because we needed to learn how to behave differently.

The positive outcome after infidelity can be a happy/loving marriage where both spouses care so deeply for each other it actually hurts.

You are allowed just 5 minutes of sad. Then, you must find ways to move the sadness with positive actions. Try not to get so bogged with regrets you only look in the rear view mirror. OK, Miss Daisy?

Not a "False Recovery" .... just a piss-poor beginning.

Now that you know better, you will do better.

More lies revealed. I effed up some of my "story" and forced myself to come clean. She's obviously angry... I screwed up. I'm sorry.

I agree. I think you've been trickle truthing AI.

And now I'm completely clean. The above post was a portion of the truth. I don't know if I should go into detail here, but when I said I slept with the OW twice, I lied. It was more like 10 times, and I *did* "achieve" a few times.

There were also more women with whom I flirted with, including many of my wife's friends.

I am sorry for lying you you all, but I am most sorry about lying to and destroying my wife's life.

I'm now waiting for my wife to decide if I should stay or go. I will keep you posted.

Also, I admit that I am one of the "Vultures" that are currently being discussed in another thread on this forum. I frequently went after women who had recently gotten out of relationships, or we're experiencing a hardship of any sort. I would make them feel better about pretty much anything, and exploit their sense of loss and need for connection with the willingness to fill that void.

I am a vulture. I manipulate and use people.

So why then should AI give you another chance?

Honestly, she shouldn't. But I'd like her to. This could be an incredible relationship if I get ahold of my Angry Outbursts, Disrespectful Judgements, commit to full honesty, and do everything humanly possible to show her that I'm in this 100%.

She thinks the lies aren't over, but I'm done. Now I have to work my a$$ off.

But no, she houldnt give me another chance. I certainly wouldn't. All I know is that I'll have to live with whatever decision she makes, and work my [censored] of to justly compensate her for everything I've done.

You gotta problem with stuff on that EP list? Ater 7 years of cheating? YGBFKM, right? I thought so.

They're not called "Convenient" Precautions. They're "Extraordinary" for a reason. Seven years of reasons, in your case.

In the early days of recovery, I wouldn't go out of the house without letting TWC know where I was going. I had my phone on & was accessible to her at all times. I asked her permission if I wanted to go to the hardware store, or to go to the grocery store for a jug of laundry detergent. We changed accounts. I shared passwords. I deleted the gmail account I'd used during the affair. And none of that was enough to earn me trust, nor should it have been.

At this point, forget about trust. Trust from AI isn't what you most need right now anyway. You had trust before, and it didn't really do jack-s*** for you as a person, did it? What you're trying to earn right now is a 2nd chance. And for a guy in your shoes, a 2nd chance is the biggest trump in the whole deck o' cards! Better than trust!

And earning a 2nd chance takes time. She might say she's willing to try, she might hope it works, but really, what guarantee does she have? With your track record, what guarantee has she got? What verbal guarantee can you give her? You ground your credibility into powder by your own hand. What guarantee can you give her?

You want guarantees that she's all-in? Yeah, and I wanna brand-new, candy-apple red Mustang convertible to roll into my driveway by 5 o'clock today.

But if I decide that's what I want, then the real path to that outcome is work, and frugality and saving money and denying myself things that I'd want short-term.

And, true, I still might not ever get that car; the kids could need braces, the damned squirrels could chew through a wire in the attic, the car I have now could get totalled & I could get hosed in the insurance reimbursement, my wife could get sured by a patient in the hospital where she works, the ex-husband of the woman I had the affair with could snap one day & decide he wants to settle all accounts with a bang & blow me away in my driveway one morning. All kinds of bad crap could happen in my life, or yours.

So does that mean you don't give 100% effort? Heck no. If you hear yourself asking for guarantees in life, you'd better have the sense to start laughin' your [censored] off at yourself right away. You just do the best you can. All-in. And you be patient. You can boost your odds of having a great marriage that AI is all-aboard on. You can't guarantee it. But you can guarantee failure if you take the course of making your own efforts conditional.

Switching gears, I hear you get angry from time to time. At what? Curious to know...

I used to be angry a lot. Angry almost never at my wife, but angry at myself. Angry for the crappy choices I made & couldn't undo. If I dwelled on it, I could get so angry that I'd want to punch holes in the walls. (The only reason I didn't punch the walls out was because I was enough of a wuss that I was afraid to hit a wall stud & shatter my wrist into a thousand chips of bone.) Channel the anger into comething productive. Working out is great. A 60-lb. "body" bag & a pair of 16oz boxing gloves helps. Skipping rope helps. Thinking of lists of things you can do for AI helps. And then followng through.

She's said I can stay for now. She hasn't decided yet.
I consider myself lucky at the moment, but am respectfully waiting for her decision. During which time I will continue watching my AO's, DJ's, be honest and respectful, try to fulfill her needs, though she's refused me recently as I came clean, and do everything I possibly can to show her that I CHOOSE to do this because WANT to do this.

I'll keep you posted.

She's said I can stay for now. She hasn't decided yet.
I consider myself lucky at the moment, but am respectfully waiting for her decision. During which time I will continue watching my AO's, DJ's, be honest and respectful, try to fulfill her needs, though she's refused me recently as I came clean, and do everything I possibly can to show her that I CHOOSE to do this because WANT to do this.

I'll keep you posted.

Did I post this to you yet?
Another excellent radio clip on Dr. Harley explaining forgiveness compared to just compensation.

Radio Clip explaining Just Compensation

Thank you, GloveOil.

I get angry at pretty much everything. And when I get angry, I take it out on my wife. I snap at the kids, and I yell at my wife. And I stay where everyone can see me being pissed off. And make their lives hell.

I've made an appointment for Anger Management sessions starting on Thrsday of next week. The 21st. 5:30pm. Expect me to post almost directly after that.

Again, thank you for replying.

No, but I saw that you had posted it on AI's thread. Are you getting these from the archives, or is there somewhere I can grab these myself without the membership?

Just listened to the piece on just compensation and took 2 pages of notes. I've come away with this:

I have to be all in, 100% honest, transparent, let no one but my wife make Love Bank deposits, follow No Contact for life, avoid friendships with anyone of the opposite sex, follow the Policy of Joint Agreement, create a romantic relationship with my wife that surpasses what we ever had, and follow through with all of the above, while ensuring that I will act upon the Extraordinary Precautions that my wife sets out for me.

I have to do this all because I want to, and all without fail. I have to avoid any Love Busters, and be completely respectful.

And I have to understand and accept that she has the right to end the relationship at anytime, if she wants to, for any reason.

I also have to acknowledge and accept that my BS has the right to refuse my offer to carry out the above mentioned terms.

I will do this.

A line has been drawn that I do not wish or expect to cross.

One thing happened that upset me, though. She brought up the day one of our friends died, a subject that she knows is a very upsetting thing for me and something I always ask not to talk about, because she wanted to know what happened that day between myself and his sister - a woman with whom I had sex.

I got very upset because it felt to me that she was using that event against me, and knew that it would get a rise out of me.

I asked that she not bring his death up again, and he said that I should not be making demands. We then arged about whether or not I was there when he died, and she said I was having an angry outburst and walked away.

I won't apologize for being upset about the subject of a friend dying. This is something "gets me every time." I will apologize for my outburst.

In additions to the EPs that senhas added to my current list of EPs, she is requiring me to do a few other things she is calling Extreme Precautions, including signing the van over to her, putting a new password on a bank account that I will not have access to, and signing a post-nup that will be set out in her best interest.

There are more which I will post later (if she gives me the list after adding more).

I have agreed to all of them.

Well, waitaminute, TRT: Which do you think she was bringing up -- the fact of your friend's death, or the tangled relationship that included your history with his sister? Answer, please.

Seems to me the facts of your friend's death are pretty well established. That's not what she was really bringing up. If you'd drop your guard and LISTEN to your wife, I think you'd hear that what she was asking was not about his death. It was about the relationships -- including the one that was (or that later turned?) improper.

You don't get a free pass on truthfully answering her questions that relate to your infidelity by ducking behind your friend's tombstone. (And if that's what you were trying for, that'd be pretty weak, wouldn't you agree?) You listen patiently to what your wife is asking to know -- and if you're not sure, the you calmly ask her to clarify (that's how you engage in conversation & meet her need for honesty). Then you answer meekly, humbly, truthfully -- in short, honorably.

There's no shortcut.

I'm so glad you have some excellent posters on your thread.

You did take excellent notes. I get all the clips from the archives and you do not have to pay a membership.

Dr. Harley puts it very simple. If POJA and PORH are always followed, then there never can an affair happen if these two policies are followed. Plus you will make sure you are taking extraordinary care of your spouse.

Why don't you schedule a poly and get all the lies out on the table?
Polygraph Testing

I don't have the money, but AI has made it absolutely clear that we will find the money, even of it takes months.

The tangled relationship. I had a rash, knee jerk reaction. It was me.

AI gave me this list of requirements in order for her to even consider recovery. What's the general consensus on it:

- Car in her name/joint name
- Possible post-nup protecting HER
- Personal bank I have no access to
- COMPLETE adherence to EPs
- keyloggers/ controls on all internet
- Returning to old job, even with location change, NOT AN OPTION
- No more lovebusting or manipulation. Zero tolerance. Walk away.
- COMPLETE honesty about all emotional and physical infidelity will be given, in detail, however small
- Polygraph will be taken to ensure total honesty. �If his story was false, we are DONE.

I have to agree to and complete all of these before he will consider committing to recovery.

There's your answer. You have to agree to all of it.

Our consensus is irrelevant. Only one person is married to you, and she has been systematically and constantly betrayed by you, and those are her conditions that you must meet if you are to be allowed to attempt recovery with her.

Dang TrT,

Why do keep lying to her? The supposed EA with her friend was a PA? You snuck out while she was asleep and had sex with her friend.

Damn!

Wow, don't think I have seen a better example of "give a wayward a reason to gaslight you and they will run with it" scenario.

TRT,

Sit down, write down all your affairs on a time line, and give it to her now. Answer every question she had about this timeline. Stop trickle exposing and hiding the truth! Otherwise, walk away and stop abusing your wife. No one deserves this so grow a pair and lay it all out!

Either she takes you or she doesn't. But the lies will come out. Tell her everything now. This is inhuman!!! Until you do this, your marriage won't recover.

You're incorrect.
You must agree to every item and complete every item with a grateful heart and a willing spirit..... SO SHE DOES NOT KICK YOU OUT TODAY, THIS MINUTE.

She's not going to "commit to recovery" for a very long time now.
For now, she is willing to be GENEROUS and commit to allowing you near her .... for the moment.
You have no idea how much just looking at you makes her sick.
More lies? Really? WTF

Remember how you were making all those love bank deposits?
You bragged about it a little. It felt so good, you said.
What do you think your love bank balance is now?
Somewhere equivalent to the US federal debt.

When are you going to stop being such an idiot?
I thought you were really starting to get it.
You are right. A vulture. Picking away at the flesh of the wounded.

I like to help willing wayward husbands become the excellent husband their wife can brag to others about. It's HARD to reach out to waywards once they have repeatedly screwed the pooch. I like to give it a try anyway, because it is my way of helping your wife.

Now, I'm considering what choice name to call you.
But, I will restrain myself, FOR YOUR WIFE'S SAKE.

Are you going all in or not?
Are you playing games?
Are you being cute?
Are you devouring the flesh from your wife's wounds?

I turn you over to my friend, GloveOil.
I'm miffed.

Couldn't have said it better.

I know, Susie.
Possibly a sociopath.

Have you considered that you need to completely give up your secret second life in order to STOP getting angry when your BW asks you questions??


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

That last one was not a rhetorical Q by the way....

[b]
**edit**

Wow...

Can you please provide an adequate link/authority for this definition, please? No insult is intended. I'm genuinely curious as to where you got this information/psychological profile/"definition".

**edit**

Thank you for sharing these links.

I will try to continue to update this thread, though I'm now seeing that it's pretty much useless. I would like a chance to prove myself to my wife, and fully acknowledge that she has the right to refuse my attempts and/or requests to show her my true intentions, and that divorce is very much on the table if I do not live up to her expectations. I have to, and do respect that. If AI so chooses to file for divorce, I will also respect that decision. But I intend to try to save this marriage FIRST.

I know that she appreciates the support from all of you.

I will continue to read through this thread and research the information you have provided me with.

And, trt ~ Something else I just happened to pull up:

** edit**

Any more questions?

Originally Posted by therightthing

Thank you for sharing these links.

I will try to continue to update this thread, though I'm now seeing that it's pretty much useless. I would like a chance to prove myself to my wife, and fully acknowledge that she has the right to refuse my attempts and/or requests to show her my true intentions, and that divorce is very much on the table if I do not live up to her expectations. I have to, and do respect that. If AI so chooses to file for divorce, I will also respect that decision. But I intend to try to save this marriage FIRST.

I know that she appreciates the support from all of you.

I will continue to read through this thread and research the information you have provided me with.

You know what, trt?
Your "words" are backed up by your "actions"...
How do people "know" that you are backing up your words by your actions?
YUP!!!
They are "validated" by your BW!!!
We'll see, won't we?

**edit**

Yes, we will.

Yes, this is exactly what AOs and DJs are for. Dr. Harley describes a continuum of abuse and control. Angry Outbursts, Disrespectful Judgments, and Selfish Demands all come because you want something. You don't get it, so you demand it. If that doesn't work, you escalate: you use disrespect to try to get your wife to give you what you want. And if that still doesn't work, you have an angry outburst.

It's all abuse, and it's all about controlling your wife.

TRT I just don't get why on earth you would debate, negotiate and get angry with the REASONABLE requests your BW has asked from you in order for her to co sider recovery.

You come here all yes mam I'll do this and yes sir I'll do that but behind the scenes at home with AL your angry, resentful and trying to negotiate the terms of her recovery.

After what you did you just don't get to ask for anything, you simply ENTHUSIASTICALLY agree to any requests AL makes that will help her heal from the tremendous assault you inflicted on her.

So drop the act with us at MB too and start being honest with the kind people who are trying to help you. What's the problem with what AL has asked of you and the EPs she has asked for???

Is that Velma, the drama Queen trying to take over again?
It's only useless if you make it useless.
The choice is yours.


You have a difficult time recognizing your own selfishness. Years of thinking about yourself.
The above statement is declaring that you want to look good and you seek approval. It's about your needs.
I wish you'd said this:
"I would like a chance to heal my wife and make her happy."
You may think I am playing semantics, I assure you, this wording you used is about YOUR need, not your wife's.
You need me (us) to point these things out to you because after years of selfishness, you lack awareness of how selfish you've become.
Please, welcome these little stings of clarity.
You've got thousands of "A-ha!" moments ahead of you. Don't allow yourself to bristle and become defensive every time. Just pick up the tip/lesson and put it in your pocket and keep going.


Do you even hear yourself?
Your "true intentions" are truer this time than they were before?
Really. You REALLY mean it, this time.
Do you even know what trash your true intentions have historically been?
Don't talk like this. By that I mean, in catch-phrases meant to show yourself off in a "good light".
You have squandered that right. For now, your wife knows your true intentions have been to lie/cheat/bamboozle her.



Live up to HER expectations .....What do you expect of yourself?
You borrow your wife's expectations that you behave well.
Why?
You need to be a better man even if you divorce.





Why?
Really.... Why?
It's been a miserable marriage.
What have you enjoyed about marriage?



And you don't?
You are getting support as well.
We support you stop this and start this

Quote

Proverbs 11:29

He who troubles his own house will inherit the wind

Your 'true inventions' are of no use to you, or your wife.

Oops!
I sent an apology to the Mods for posting inappropriate links to TRT.
Links that were NOT MB material!
Just want to say I apologize to whoever notified the Mods about my inappropriate behavior!
Yes! I was wrong!
I am truly sorry...
And, I want to thank you, too, for keeping me in line!!!
Blessings ~

You're exactly right. The choice is mine. And if I so choose to update, or reach out for constructive criticism and/or help, I will. As of right now, the posters who find it helpful to slander me have dissuaded me from posting anything.

You, Brain, Marcos, GloveOil, and a few other have offered me advice that is invaluable. And I appreciate it. I feel I can learn from your comments. Not those of the people whose vitriolic nature prevents them from acting human.


I don't see the harm in seeking my wife's approval and to want to look good for her. I intend to live by the rules we set out, and to be the best man I can possibly be for her. You're right that I've lead a life of selfishness and ignorance. I've been abusive and hurtful, and it is my goal, my OBLIGATION to stop if I may show AI that I really do love her and want to be with her. I want my wife to heal from the pain that I've inflicted. And I intend to help her do just that.


I do hear myself. And I've read what Harvey has to say in Surviving an Affair, as well as Love Busters. In his radio clips, the clips that BrainHurts has generously provided, Harvey frequently says that it is the Betrayed Spouse's right to refuse my attempts to help them heal. My statement reflects the fact that I acknowledge and respect that right, given the circumstances that that I have willingly put us in.


Yes. Her expectations. I want to be a better man for her. Nobody else. Being a better man for myself comes next. And being a better man for anybody else comes... never.


You've not been married to this woman. She's amazing and warm, beautiful, sexy, thoughtful, and pure. And I violated that. I have to believe that I deserve this, make good with my actions, and work towards actually deserving it. I love AI. I have violated her and her heart. I intend to fix that.


I do appreciate it. I'm just not going to roll over when someone decides to throw jabs instead of actually trying to help. **edit**

We're all here because we've done wrong in some way. I can learn from your mistakes, because you attempted recovery before I did. I can learn from your successes because your example shows that it's possible and that it may work. I can't learn from your hatred and insults. Nobody can. **edit**

And seriously? A bible verse? I understand your need for faith, but with all due respect, such beliefs are things I don't hold stock in. I'm not going to be swayed or argue the virtues of faith with you or anyone. And besides:


And the idea that some people would so easily condemn me for my actions without the slightest indication of admitting that affairs can happen to anyone, that they could be the adulterer, or that i even remotely condone the actions that I have done that have hurt my wife, I offer the following story:


in response, I'm calling my sin and sin. I am a sinner. If I commit adultery or abuse upon my wife at any point in the future, it is still a sin.

But I intend to go forth and "sin no more".

If y'all want to have a hand in that, awesome. If you'd like to just cast stones, well... this whore is gonna throw them back.

I did AI very wrong. I intend to right that wrong. I've agreed to her request that I continue to post, at least weekly, on this thread. I will honor that request. Regardless of the pitiful example that some posters would like to pass off as advice or help. You and several other are not included in that statement.

Thank you. I really do look forward to your advice.

*like*

**edit**

On to other things...

As for an update on my actions today, I woke up with the kids and took them downstairs for breakfast, letting AI sleep in. I also brought her breakfast in bed, all as per her request. My intentions for today... my plans... include reading, and possibly finishing, Love Busters, and going through more of this thread for the links and bits of advice that may help me in my journey to save my marriage, and my journey of self discovery.

I intend to show AI that I have what it takes to be a better man.

Happy Father's day, folks.

Believe it or not, that actually means a lot to me. Thank you, Pepperband.

Proverbs 11:29 is very wise. It conveys a lot of meaning in very few words.
That verse was close to my heart this morning because my husband spoke about Proverbs11:29 earlier this week. I just had a second major surgery in 3 months, and my beloved is taking care of me. He has my love bank so full, I may bust! I don't know what his intentions are, but his behaviors have shown me he has my back. He is my soft (safe) place to fall.


I don't argue about faith. I do occasionally post a verse if it is meaningful TO ME. I would never quote scripture unless I thought it was useful, and true. You however, say you do not value scripture, yet you quoted scripture. That's OK.

I sincerely apologize for attacking your use of a bible passage on this thread. I misunderstood your intention.

I hope that you recover quickly and very well from your recent surgery.

This won't work to your benefit.
You will look ridiculous.
You will convince yourself that you have the right to throw stones.
Keep your side of the equation clean.
You will never regret doing that.
Respond to hurtful comments in a reasoned, calm, respectful way.
Or, ignore them!
It's good practice for you.
You cannot allow yourself to be quick to anger.
It's a bad habit you must break.
Your wife has felt your mean anger too many times. Please, do not give yourself permission to be mean under any circumstances.

Let's face it, you're not in the position to wag fingers at anyone, puffing up with imaginary righteous anger.

Practice walking away peacefully. It will benefit your marriage.

And, notify the mods if you think something has crossed the line.

TRT ~
I would like to thank you personally for notifying the Mods about the inappropriate links I posted.
You did the right thing!
I will continue to read your BW's thread and compare her posts to what I read here...
My sincere prayer is that you will do whatever it takes to restore love in your marriage...
You and your sweet BW have a dynamic opportunity to be one of Dr. Harley's success stories!
It ALL depends on you...
Let me be clear about something here.
While I apologize for posting non-MB material on this board, I do NOT apologize for being concerned for your wife and children's safety...
However, that may change as I see you doing "The Right Thing"!

Tell me what you thought my intention was. Then, tell me how you can know my intention without asking me.

I bet you've done this with your wife.
Assumed incorrectly she had some "bad" intention or motive.

Asking questions in a non sarcastic way will give you traction in most situations where you *think* bad intentions are afoot.

In the immortal and ever insightful words of Cameo:

Word up!

Great advice. You're completely right. Thank you.

I thought your intention was to push your belief on me. I assume I am wrong, and apologize for such an ignorant Disrespectful Judgement and Angry Outburst.


You're absolutely correct. I have done this with my wife. I would expect that this falls under AO's and DJ's, with SD's coming into play when she tries to justify herself against my incorrect and illogical argument, and I demand that she apologizes to me, instead of the other way around.

In fact, I did it last night a few times. This is a behaviour that I need to overcome and destroy.


Duly noted.

Unclench.
We are not at war with you.
We may be hard on you, but you're not the first WH to begin recovery with big fat juicy lies.

One of the classics was "Greenmile". Good name, you agree?

LINK to GM's first post of lies

GM is very intelligent. A recently retired prominent physician. Just read his first post, not the entire thread. GM came to MB and lied his butt off to us. He had to, because his wife was also on MB and he was lying to her. When the truth came out .... (like pulling teeth through the wrong end) .... GM had a for real nervous breakdown and ended up in the psych hospital. (this is why that thread was locked by the mods) His wife had just discovered GM had more than 2 decades of infidelity with many, many women .... and then she was STUCK taking care of his sorry self because he became suicidal.

So you see, you are not the first cowboy to lie to this crowd. To lie in order to "save his marriage".

I (we) are not shocked by you.
But, we're on to you.
And, we really do want the best for you.

Soooooooooooooo UNclench. Put down those boxing gloves.
Be slow to anger.
Be sure your fuse is super long.
OK?

Ok.

Unclenched.

But still apologetic in regards to the attack on your intentions with the bible quote.

Gonna go read Love Busters now.

Link

This was a pretty incredible post. Thank you.

The link is broken.

Apology accepted.
I'm feeling pretty mellow.
Probably the pain medication

This. Bolded and underlined. What are you talking about!? After 30 something pages you just don't get that you are in no position to demand anything. You are obligated to give full truth about your past indiscretions, full timeline and details. This should be your No 1 concern - to stop the trickle truth and disclose facts about all your affairs.

As a former WS myself, there is one thing that sticks out as a sad sign of your insincerety - I just don't believe anything you say - making amends must take most of your time and not leave you much time for bragging here ... But here's what you are doing ... most of the time. You're like a pupil who's after praises only. This stinks high heaven. I know your intentions, mister. But your "face" is already gone, if that's what you are trying to keep.

ITA with you Mrs Recon.

I was hoping to see some acknowledgement that what he did to his BW with the "she is crossing a line by bringing up an upsetting event" incident was really GASLIGHTING.

I was hoping to see some acknowledgement that his anger is a tool used to get his BW to back off when he is protecting his secret second life.

I was hoping to see some acknowledgement that it is going to take some hard work to become radically honest.

I was hoping to see some mention of the fact that a POLY is necessary, cannot be placed on a back burner and he is willing to do whatever it takes to get the one scheduled and done so that his BW can have some comfort that there are no more secrets.

Not impressed at all.

I need to get out of myself and my head and reach AI on her level of pain. I have massive feelings of remorse in me, but they're just not effing showing up on the goddamned outside.

What the hell can I do to make this happen?

I'm so used to keeping stone-faced and calm during tragic and terrible situations. **edit**

rightthing,

I'm only getting a few minutes here and haven't been able to completely follow everything, but a couple of things that stick out to me:

* You have no hope unless you come clean about everything. I'm gathering that more details are trickling out. Each time this happens, it's like the offense happens ALL OVER AGAIN to your wife, so get it all out ONCE and for all, without hiding anything. Schedule a polygraph to back up what you are saying. Move openness and honesty up above overcoming anger in your list of goals.
* Quit threatening to leave the forum or complaining that posting is useless. We may be the best bet you have. If you don't like something somebody is saying, SHUT UP about it and put them on ignore. You have more important things to do in life right now than straighten out strangers on the internet, agree? Besides -- the truth is, often it is the things people say to us that we don't want to hear that are the most important things we need to hear.
* You are very, very fortunate to have Pepperband posting to you. Rarely has Pep posted to me directly, but her words of wisdom on this site for over a decade have been extremely useful to me as I've been through them. If you want to grow up, listen to Pepperband. Don't fight with her, not only will the rest of us be upset, but you'll be shooting yourself in the foot by getting rid of some of the best help you could possibly have.
* I see Greenmile was mentioned on your thread; I got a lot out of reading Greenmile's posting history, and you might as well. But don't let it take precedence over reading Dr. Harley's articles.

I think you might want to reread that before you jump to too many conclusions. That was me admitting that I do it.

Actually, no.

All you need to do right now is tell your wife the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Take and pass a polygraph.

Once you have told your wife the whole truth, you will stop blaming her.

Trust me.

BV

It doesn't matter rightthing. If you read Dr. Harley's plan for surviving infidelity, you won't see a "show remorse" step.

You're falling into a trap in your thinking. It's a very common trap I've seen a lot of people fall into. It's the trap of thinking that if your wife just knew how you felt, if she knew how sincere your remorse was and how deeply you regret your misdeeds, everything would be okay.

Actually the truth is that that wouldn't help anything. What your wife needs is for you to TELL THE TRUTH, PROTECT HER (quit love busting her), SPEND TIME WITH HER, and make amends for your past by giving her a marriage that is fantastic for both of you.

In other words, it doesn't matter how loudly or sincerely you say "I'm sorry." You have to actually do something about it. As usual, the rule is that talk is cheap, your words mean nothing, and actions are what matter.

So, spill the whole truth, and follow the plan. Emoting about your sorrow is just another manipulative tool. Lay it down and pick up the tools that will actually help.

Here's the four rules to follow to recover your marriage. You'll notice that honesty is mandatory:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3900_rules.html

I'm done. I don't even know what to say. I give up.
I'm broken.

I've politely requested that AI give me a list of everything she wants me to do, tonight. I will agree and comply with all of them.

Anything is better than this.

I heard BS's are supposedly heroes...

Originally Posted by therightthing

I'm done. I don't even know what to say. I give up.
I'm broken.

I've politely requested that AI give me a list of everything she wants me to do, tonight. I will agree and comply with all of them.

Anything is better than this.

I heard BS's are supposedly heroes...

My sincere prayer is that you will do whatever it takes to restore love in your marriage...
You and your sweet BW have a dynamic opportunity to be one of Dr. Harley's success stories!

Thank you.

Is it a bad thing that what Pepperband said about me being a poor risk for recovery just got my a$$ out of my chair and back into the books/thread linkage? I SO want to prove you wrong. I want to prove you wrong by making AI explode with love.

Whatever. I'm going to go make this **EDIT** woman proud.
See you later.

Updated list of EPs.
I've agreed to all of them.
Unconditionally.

- TRT will transfer the car/van to AI�s name or to joint ownership
- TRT and AI will research the possibility of a post-nuptial agreement or marital contract protecting AI�s financial future
- AI will create a personal bank account that TRT has no access to (pending completion and passing of poly)
- TRT will COMPLETELY adhere to EPs set out by both himself and AI
- TRT will look into and install key-loggers/content controls on all computers and internet accessible machines
- TRT returning to old job, even with location change (secondment), NOT AN OPTION
- TRT will not commit any more lovebusting or manipulation. AI will exercise zero tolerance and reserves the right to walk away at her discretion.
- TRT will commit to COMPLETE honesty about all emotional and physical infidelity being given, in detail, however small
- A polygraph will be taken, by TRT, to ensure total honesty. �If TRT�s story is found to be false (ie: fails polygraph test), the marriage will be dissolved
- No porn
- No nights apart
- Facebook, twitter and other social media will not be reactivated, and no new social media of ANY sort will be joined, unless there is full POJA agreement in effect, and passwords will be shared
- Immediate change of email address and deletion of old accounts
- Agreement to take a polygraph in the future at ANY time if spouse feels the need
- No new email accounts will be created for ANY reason without informing spouse and sharing passwords
- When looking for a job, TRT will make an effort to find one that does not involve working with computers
- Change the settings on desktop to NOT automatically delete history after a certain time
- Do not delete Internet history on phone or computers for any reason
- Do not delete text conversations, call history, or any other info on phone
- No complimenting or sharing personal info with members of opposite sex
- No female friends
- No hiding purchases or use of money
- Account accurately for time
- Promptly answer texts and calls from spouse
- No lies, of any degree, for any reason
- Start exercise and diet plan to help with anger and self-control
- Develop boundaries: Do not let people other than your spouse meet your emotional needs
- If tempted or attracted to someone else, confess to spouse immediately and institute precautions to avoid the offending party
- Reread EP list daily to keep it fresh in your mind
- Finish Love Busters, Surviving an Affair, His Needs, Her Needs, and Fall in Love, - Stay in Love, and commit to doing everything possible to prevent any future AOs
- Participate in at least 10 anger management classes
- Do research into the feelings of a betrayed spouse, to help develop understanding and compassion for spouse's pain
- Willingness to be transparent and answer questions about the affair at any time
- Willingly take STD test
- Inform AI if contacted by offending females, in any way, immediately
- Invest in at least 15 hours of Undivided Attention on a weekly basis (preferably 20-30)
- Find and employ an appropriate outlet for frustration, anger, and excess energy
- Change cell phone number and only give to select contacts that AI approves of
- Vet book collection of any offensive/disrespectful material that will not directly help my marriage to AI
- Lessen online presence (i.e.: blog, FB, Twitter, etc.)(done)
- Make cell phone available to AI upon her request at any time, for any reason
- Remove anybody from Facebook that may pose a threat to the marriage
- Remove anyone from cell contact list that may pose a threat to the marriage
- DO NOT engage in any personal relationships with members of the opposite sex
- DO NOT share ANY personal information with members of the opposite sex
- DO NOT add any females to Facebook or any social media site without AI�s approval
- DO NOT send ANY emails to members of the opposite sex without AI reading and approving of them first
- IMMEDIATELY Provide AI with any and all passwords to email, social media, websites, banking information, cell phone, financial information, etc.
- DO NOT have ANY contact, FOR LIFE, with any of the offending females, or anyone TRT was in an intimate relationship with before or during my marriage to AI.
- DO NOT flirt, help, or be excessively nice to any members of the opposite sex, with the exception of AI
- DO NOT attend ANY place (convention, reading, meeting, dinner, etc.) alone that may present a threat to my marriage to AI
- DO NOT contact ANY member of the opposite sex via email, Facebook, Twitter, Text, Phone, DM, PM, etc. unless for business or professional purposes
- DO NOT vet, hide, or delete any emails, texts, PM, DM, etc., before AI approval
- DO NOT put any projects, assignments, jobs, ideas, etc., before AI and our children.
- DO NOT give cell phone number to anyone unless AI approves
- DO NOT take cell phone to the bathroom or outside for a smoke without AI�s approval
- DO NOT compliment people excessively
- DO NOT use terms of endearment with anyone but AI and the children
- Speak with respect
- Post at least weekly on the Marriage Builders Forum for feedback and accountability for no less that the period of 1 year, concurrently.

Honestly, I've got nothing left to lose. Except my wife.

I gave up my pride and dignity the minute I stuck my junk in another woman and emotionally/mentally abused my wife.

Get rid of Facebook and other social media altogether. You don't need it. Don't use POJA to get it back. Don't add exceptions to when you can use it. Consider it gone for good.

Totally understand and duly noted. This was AI's wording, though. I agreed to everything fully, without negotiation. I'll let her know you suggested this. Thank you for your reply.

Okay, but have you done this with complete enthusiasm and with complete "hat in hand" remorse? I kind of doubt it. So far I've seen nothing from you but classic narcissist tendencies, and I'm pretty sure you're gas-lighting all here now. Frankly, I would walk away from you with utter relief if I were your BW. If one tenth of what your BW is saying is true, then you need some serious help with your character flaws. And I mean SERIOUS HELP!

You need to concentrate on fixing you right now, IMO. Yeah, you're broken, but not in the way you were trying to convey when you admitted it to the board. You have serious internal flaws that will not just go away with words and a promise to be a good boy. You go way beyond that, and your wife doesn't deserve this. Not at all.

As far as I have seen you are not even truly capable of acknowledging your own failures as an honest and righteous man. Until you do that, own up to it, and take proper measures to correct your flaws, you are in no position to repair your marriage and call yourself real husband material.

So what's your plan on fixing this? Your words mean jack-squat to her and to us. When are you going to be ready to admit, not to us but to yourself, that you need some serious help in getting your head screwed on straight?

No more [censored], okay?

You do not need your wife's approval to NOT go to Facebook or any other social media. This is a limit you can put on yourself, something you can do yourself.

You don't HAVE to have social media, for any reason. She may be generous in considering letting you have it under some circumstances. Take it a step further and just do away with it altogether. Limit YOURSELF.

Also, stop swearing.

A man who struggles with an anger problem should never swear. Start controlling yourself.

TRT

Please stop lying to us, AL has made it clear you have NOT enthusiastically agreed to her requirements and that you have been angry and obnoxious about them so don't come here saying you agreed and will do anything it takes to save your marriage when your actually fighting the requirements all the way.

And as you have proven to be a liar on so many occasions I tend to believe ALs version of events.

TRT,

Why don't you email the radio show and tell them you want to be a caller and the Harleys will talk to you and AI?

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com.

rightthing, have you scheduled a polygraph?

I haven't. AI wants to shop around for a better price. She also wants to know if anyone out there will allow more than 3 questions, as she's not sure that's the standard.

Polygraph Testing

Get this done, sir.

Have you told your wife the whole truth? Are there any bombshells remaining?

You might consider filling out Dr. Harley's Personal History Questionnaire for AlmostInvictus:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4503_phq.html

We're on it, Marcos.

No more bombs. I'm writing a detailed account of EVERYTHING right now.

We've done the personal history, but now I feel I should do it again...

Tell it all, please, so you don't have to keep doing it over and over again.

Take that polygraph.

Schlag, another wayward husband on this site:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=userposts&id=62882

Schlag took a polygraph and failed. Argued and argued and argued to try to hold onto his version of events, in an attempt to control what his wife believed about his affair.

Notice his subject line for his thread: "The crisis time." When he wrote that title, his mindset was "This is a time period of crisis that we have to get through." His focus, like many waywards, was on "getting through" or "getting past," which means "I can't wait till my wife gets over this and we get back to normal times." The truth is, the previous "normal" led to hell and horror for the betrayed spouse, and typically wasn't wonderful for the wayward spouse either, so getting back to "normal" is not near as good an idea as "Learning the right thing to do and developing the habit of doing it FROM NOW ON, TILL DEATH DO WE PART."

Like AI just said to me, this is the shot of my life. I get to be the man I want to be.

I've also just agreed to a poly at any time, even after the big one, whenever she feels it necessary. For life.

You've said a lot of things TRT in the past month, much of which was either self-serving or fiction. Your word will only mean anything when you have backed it up by completed actions.

Book the poly today.

Good.

When is the big one?

Ask AI.

Also, I just set out, in writing, that I fully admit to sanitizing 3 of my email accounts roughly 30 minutes before I have her the passwords.

What the hell else do I have to lose? Go big or go home.

Don't dump it all on your wife.

Admitting it: good.

Doing it: you've got to admit this is infuriating, right?

Yes. It IS infuriating.

I booked the poly for 9am, this Thursday morning.
I will pay in cash.
$500

Now I have to go finish this epic tome and find some stuff to sell. Am waiting to find out if I'm approved for a loan, in my name.

Have all your affairs been exposed to the BHs? Even the EA that was actually a PA with AI's friend?

No.

Also, I was refused the loan. I'm gathering my stuff to sell.

Was this OW married?

Her BH needs to know.

You listened to that radio clip of what Dr. Harley said a WH needs to do to earn his BW back, correct? Dr. H said the WH should go tell everyone himself about his affairs? Remember you said it was a large order?

Actions speak volumes.

So???

I don't think I did listen to the clip, but I'll track the people down.

Here you go.

Sold my Wacom tablet, Time Capsule, and Guitar. $200.
The laptop goes tomorrow, and will hopefully fill out the rest.
This is worth it.

Ah yes. I did listen to that, Brain. Thank you. I even took notes. I'll listen again tonight.

Glad to hear it.

I finished my detail of every event I created and every instance I had an affair during my marriage to AI. It's 43 pages. I'm giving it to her now and we will confirm it on Thursday.

Read it again yourself and add what u left out. Because it will bite u in the az later. Promise!!!

43 pages? Oh dear Lord, I feel badly for your poor wife. WOW. And you are CERTAIN that you have left nothing out right? Also, I hope to all that is good and mighty that you didn't use words to justify any one of the things you did.

Are you willing to give up any avenues that caused you to have a secret second life? This isn't just about your current marriage, and family but the person whom you want to be in the next minute and every minute of your life from here on out. You choose, this moment, and every moment from now on to be the best man you can be. And that man doesn't lie, doesn't hide truths from those who love him, and doesn't intentionally hurt anyone anymore. You need to make that conscious effort to become something and someone better. You not only owe this to your wife, and children but to yourself. I really hope you make the right decision. And if you can think of even one thing that you left out, you better fess up to it now.

Yep. Forgot one person. She already knows about that one, but I'm writing it out right now.

Change is something I am completely down with.

I'm sorry... I don't have words right now. AI is in the bathroom while she reads and I have a HUGE feeling this isn't going to end well. I'm dedicated to this fight now. I want it to work worse than anything I've ever wanted.

But this truth... it's gonna kill her. I don't know if she's going to want to heal after this.

And no, I didn't justify anything. Straight facts. Am filling in whatever details I left out for her via text message.

TRT

Take it one day at a time.
Sometimes one hour at a time.

Told her about that one via text. No response.
I'm killing the woman I love.

TRT, I'm kind of curious about one thing. What possessed you to come so clean all of a sudden? You've been fighting everyone on this board for around a month to disclose the entire truth, and up until last night (quite unexpectedly I might add) you seemed to be adamant in staying that course.

What caused you to do a complete 180 in the matter of a few hours? I'm not trying to question your sincerity, but I am trying to figure out what motivated you to make this turn around this quickly.

I may be alone here, but this makes me wonder.

Originally Posted by TigerWes

TRT, I'm kind of curious about one thing. What possessed you to come so clean all of a sudden? You've been fighting everyone on this board for around a month to disclose the entire truth, and up until last night (quite unexpectedly I might add) you seemed to be adamant in staying that course.

What caused you to do a complete 180 in the matter of a few hours? I'm not trying to question your sincerity, but I am trying to figure out what motivated you to make this turn around this quickly.

I may be alone here, but this makes me wonder.

No, TW ~
You are NOT alone...
I have been wondering for a very long time WHY TRT does/says WHAT he does/says WHEN he does/says the things he does/says!
His inconsistencies are, to me, .
When I actually "see" that TRT's words are backed up by his actions via his BW's own words...
Well . . .
I must say that I continue to callous my knees in prayer for him!

She drew a line and I knew she was serious.
I'm good at reading people. Very good.
And when she started to scare me, I knew I was f*cked.
And then I thought about what might happen of she left me.
And then I realized the life I'd lead.
And then I realized what I'd miss.
And then I remembered all the absolutely obnoxious things she does.
And I realized that I'd miss them, too.

I also realized that I'd just met my match.
She had me pegged.

So now I'm taking a chance to love and live with the most powerful, beautiful, intellugent, funny, and downright angelic person I've ever met.

And I really hope she wants me, too.

So yeah... I got nothing to look forward to but bouncing from [censored] to [censored] while living with my parents for the rest of my life, not seeing my kids, and not having AI to go to sleep to and wake up to ever again, and then some.

Or I could hurt her one last time and have her forever.

I went for "the chance" for once in my life.

And I don't intend to [censored] it up.

And I'm sorry, I'm not going to stop swearing any time soon. You should hear the mouth on AI! It's one of the reasons I got together with her in the first place. It helps that she's hot, too.

Keep praying, homie. It's gonna be a long road.
Go get yersself a pillow.

AI just asked me a brutally tough question.


7 pages later... we'll see what she thinks.
I'm so tired of all of this lying. It's killing all of the energy everywhere.

If she lets me, I'm willing to post the entirety of the 43 page detailing of my infidelities, and the letter she asked me to write explaining why I'm here.

I want to be held accountable.

Sometimes I hate you all, but **edit** if you don't tell a whole ton of truth.

Oh, also, I let AI go through my iPhone contact list and delete any contacts she wanted. Another EP down.

Will sell my computer and all of my DVDs tomorrow.
This will more than cover the poly.
Thinking I might use the rest for something good. Something for her or us or the kids. Haven't decided yet.