Monstrously terrible conversation last night. I'm not expressing myself properly. Will put everything on hold to read LOVE BUSTERS as soon as possible.

But I got this out of it. AI has added EPs to my list:

No porn
No nights apart
Facebook, twitter and other social media will not be reactivated, and no new social media of ANY sort will be joined, unless there is full POJA agreement in effect, and passwords will be shared
Immediate change of email address and deletion of old accounts
Agreement to take a polygraph in the future at ANY time if spouse feels the need
No new email accounts will be created for ANY reason without informing spouse and sharing passwords
When looking for a job, make effort to find one that does not involve working with computers
Change the settings on desktop to NOT automatically delete history after a certain time
Do not delete Internet history on phone or computers for any reason
Do not delete text conversations, call history, or any other info on phone
No complimenting or sharing personal info with members of opposite sex
No female friends
No hiding purchases or use of money
Account accurately for time
Promptly answer texts and calls from spouse
No lies, of any degree, for any reason
Start exercise and diet plan to help with anger and self-control
Develop boundaries: Do not let people other than your spouse meet your emotional needs
If tempted or attracted to someone else, confess to spouse immediately and institute precautions to avoid the offending party
Reread EP list daily to keep it fresh in your mind
Finish Lovebusters and commit to doing everything possible to prevent any future AOs
Do research into the feelings of a betrayed spouse, to help develop understanding and compassion for spouse's pain
Willingness to be transparent and answer questions about the affair at any time

So I'll formalize this and get going. I'll probably be spending A LOT less time here, as my focus should be on AI and the family. We revisited the EN questionnaires and took them again. Hers haven't changed, but the order has.

Things are so insane right now... this is all so sad. It shouldn't have come to this. I wish I hadn't ever even looked at another female. I'm so sorry, and beginning to understand the pain I put her through, even though I know I'll never fully understand.

For those who are curious, her ENs are:

Honesty and Openness
Conversation
Affection
Family Commitment
Admiration

Hold on there, rightthing.

You are not here just pal-ling around, so far as I can tell. You are here learning the tools you need to build a good marriage. Being here IS focusing on her, unless she has said otherwise.

So I wouldn't leave this forum, okay?

rightthing, looking at your wife's complaints, the love busters are intolerable. So at this point, none of the stuff about meeting emotional needs is going to accomplish anything. You can't fill a bucket full of holes: the Love Busters are holes, and you keep kicking holes in the bucket.

You have got to move forward on eliminating demands, disrespect, and anger immediately. You are going to have to grant her the right to be the judge of this: if she feels like you are being demanding, disrespectful, or angry, YOU ARE. I promise you that she sees this more clearly than you.

An affair is the worst abuse that could possibly happen to someone, but there is absolutely no sense in a betrayed wife or husband recovering a marriage with someone who had an affair and is also an abuser. Such a betrayed spouse needed to get out of the marriage in the first place, and absolutely should not come back unless the marriage can be made completely safe, with no demands, disrespect, or anger at all.

You need to invite her to review you weekly on these three subjects (demands, disrespect, and anger -- get Dr. Harley's workbook and use the worksheets he provides) and get to the point where you don't do anything that she identifies as any of these.

Otherwise, you are not worth recovering with, period.

I suggested earlier that you become a daily radio show listener. Do you intend to do so? You need the free hour of daily counseling Dr. Harley provides.

Therightthing,

Refusal to meet EP's or to denigrate them will negate meeting any EN's. Your wife has zero reason to believe or trust you at this time, due to what you have done.

You said her first EN was "honesty and openness" -> you understand that many of her EP's fall in line with that. It seems you do not wish to follow some of her EP's, despite them being critical to supporting her #1 EN. Why is that.

Frankly, rightthing, I don't believe you are serious any more. When I ask questions and you don't answer, and then come back a few days later and start a new conversation without answering the questions asked, it says "not serious" to me.

I'm identifying for you the roadblocks that are going to prevent your marriage from recovering. They are many of the same road blocks Dr. Harley identified for me! He said until I overcame my angry outbursts, my marriage had "no hope." The same is true of yours, rightthing.

There is no hope here unless you take this seriously.

Would you mind going back and answering the questions I asked? For example, I asked what you did to break Extraordinary Precautions, and I don't see anywhere where you answered. If you will answer the questions, then I'll know we're on the same page, and I can help you.

It looks like:

1. You can't stop having angry outbursts at your wife. You need serious effective anger management therapy. You have demonstrated that you can't just do this by deciding to do it.

I gave you a big, big list of reading material about angry outbursts several posts back. How quickly do you think you can get through this? Because you are running out of time, and currently this appears to be your biggest problem.

2. You are disrespectfully trying to control how your wife feels, instead of respecting the way she feels.

3. You are being demanding about getting the chance to meet your wife's emotional needs. She is not open to having her needs met right now, because of your Love Busters, such as this demand and others like it.

4. You are demanding effort from your wife to repair your marriage. I remind you that you are the one who broke it. She is not likely to feel much enthusiasm or to hold it for long until your track record is long and impeccable.

5. You want to be able to do several things that are not okay with your wife. This is the Love Buster of Independent Behavior. In addition, you are disrespectful to her about her not wanting you to do those things. She feels you should eliminate those things to keep your marriage safe, and you are not being respectful of her feelings. This is the Love Buster of Disrespectful Judgments.

6. You want a postnup, but your wife isn't willing to do this.

7. You have said some things to your wife about expecting her to trust you. That's disrespectful on your part. Her trust is a feeling that she cannot control; you will cause her to feel trust by your actions, not your words. Demanding that she feel trust at this point is a big Love Busters. And saying that if she trusted you she would change how she feels about risky behavior that she is NOT okay with you doing is a Disrespectful Judgment, an attempt to get what you want and think you should have in a very disrespectful way.

8. You are threatening to leave your wife. If you don't want to stay married to her, just shut up and go get an attorney. Such discussions have absolutely no place in respectful marital negotiation.

Therightthing, your children are 1,3,7 and you have been married 7 years. She has spent all of your marriage raising your babies. To suggest a prenup at this time, is a MANIPULATION tactic, because you know that a woman with 3 young children(2 of which are practically babies still) is afraid to leave under such abusive circumstances for fear she'll be out on the street.

EN #3 & #4, Affection and Family Commitment. You have told her that these EN's do not matter to you unless you can consider your wayward ways.

therightthing, if you are wanting a recovered marriage like HerPapaBear's, you might take note of the fact that HPB signed a postnup giving his wife everything in the event of divorce.

Dr. Harley's advice to my wife last year:


http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2495463#Post2495463

So... am I supposed to stay and work my a$$ of, or leave until the anger is under control like Harley suggests?

I'll reread this entire thread and the links provided.

I will make a point to answer your questions honestly, as well.

Along with all of markos excellent advice please listen to these clips from Dr. Harley.
Anger Mgmt 101

You've got to do it all, rightthing. If you can start doing what needs to be done about the anger, then let your wife decide if you should stay or not. Any slips are going to be extremely painful for her.

I'm currently waiting for a callback regarding an appointment at an anger management clinic. I have requested an appointment for next Thursday, as I do not have any money until then. AI will confirm this.

I'm so damned confused.

In the mean time, I'll read everything y'all have pointed out.

Markos, do you have a thread here? If you had anger management problems, do you think your thread will be of benefit to me? What about your wife's thread?

The above link that you gave says: Access Denied.

Did you see this thread with the clips I pointed out?

I do have a thread, but I don't think I really started figuring out anger until I was mostly done posting on that thread! You can click my name to get my posting history, and then on that page there is a "topics created" link that will show not every thread I've posted on, but just the ones I've started.

I think the main benefit from my thread is to see what a man is like when he's all over the map and needs to calm down, get ahold of himself, and work calmly and patiently to rebuild his marriage without demanding that his wife "do her part."

I've suggested abundant reading material up there, and I really, really encourage you to get to listening to the radio show. It sounds like you dwell a lot on what you want your wife to do. If so, I think you'll benefit from some daily education about how to build a marriage your wife is happy with, so that she will be motivated to meet your needs. I do not kid you when I say it took well over a year for stuff to sink in, and those daily radio shows were practically mandatory for me to get it. I was absolutely clueless.

If I remember correctly you can't afford the MB coaching center, correct?

Can you do this?
Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com.

Brain: Yep. I can do that. And thank you for the link. I will investigate further.

Marcos: thank you. I will look up your thread and read everything.

My appointment is set for 5:30pm, next Thursday.

I've also just told AI that I'm done with all of my bullsh*t. It's not working, it's confusing her and hurting her, and it's killing my marriage. So... I'm going back to the start.

Aaaaaand I think I'm done for the day. Dropping rudeness all over the place and I'm not even aware of it. What the hell is wrong with me?

Is there a point where I should take myself away from AI in order to let her have a breather? Should I stay on her and risk the stupidity I'm continually inflicting on her? What?