Hi WHip, I took some time out for short period, just catching up on your thread and wondering how you and your children are.

Well, it only took me one week but I'm finally sitting down to write an update!

Still in Plan B. Most days are good, good days for me. I think I've made it through withdrawl (ugly!) as most of my sadness now stems from disappointment that all this has happened and missing what we used to have - a loving, self-sacrificing, fun-loving family. Even those thoughts only come once a week or less. I'm not crying my eyes out everyday anymore.

My thoughts tend to now drift towards what I did wrong. I had too many AOs, I brought me & the kids to my parents as soon as Frollo resigned instead of looking for a place for all of us to live, I didn't Plan A long enough or good enough. I shouldn't, I know. But I do.

Unfortunately, a lot of my "meltdowns" are brought on by the comments of others. I'm the type of person who welcomes constructive criticism - most of the time. I welcome others opinions and ideas. I've always thought that was a good quality, but I'm starting to wonder....
Especially in my given situation. I've heard everything from "forgive and forget" to "file for divorce and take everything he has". And everyone has logical arguments for the advice they offer! Even scriptural arguments! I myself have personally read things in the Bible that bring me to my knees and make me wonder if Plan B is even God-honoring and where He wants me to be.

One pastor (the highly respected man I mentioned very early on in this thread) recently told me I ccouldn't have a long list (or even a SHORT list) of things I expected Frollo to do or not do for recovery. We just needed to start over! I couldn't keep looking over his shoulder and checking his phone calls and asking where he was all the time - no one wants to live like that. He also told me I obviously needed to do something else as this "no contact thing" wasn't working. I told him it was working! He said it isn't working if my goal is to have a restored family where mom & dad live in the same house and raise their family together. I told him that wasn't my goal! It couldn't be my goal since I didn't have any control over Frollo's choices. I also told him if that WAS my goal, then I'd constantly be lowering the bar in order to appease Frollo into coming back. I politely let him know "no contact" WAS working: it was showing me how much our family and our marriage REALLY meant to Frollo, as none of the things I've requested from him for reconciliation are unreasonable given his betrayal. I'm pretty sure he ended our conversation disappointed in me. That's hard for me to take - dissappointing people. But I'm starting to get used to it.

He's not the only one. Others have tip-toed around the idea that they think I should just "be the bigger person" and forgive and forget. As a christian wife many expect me to live with multiple betrayals, forgive "seventy times seven times", and submit to my husband even when he is disobedient to God, because my obedience (to said husband) could be what brings him to repentance. That kind of makes sense and kind of makes me vomit at the same time.

There are others however, and my MB friends here that help me understand that enabling is not love. And "sweepping everything under the rug" isn't God-honoring nor is it how God deals with us when we are disobedient to Him. I study the Bible and rely heavily on prayer, asking God to direct my path each day. I even ask Him to PLEASE show me if at any time I am disobeying Him by being in Plan B or requiring Frollo to step up and meet certain conditions for reconciliation. I don't want to do what "works" by man's standards - I want to do what honors God, whatever that may be. If he tells me to exit Plan B and run back into Ryan's arms tomorrow - I'll do it! IF HE TELLS ME TO. But He's not leading me in that direction at all right now. In fact it's just the opposite! Somedays I want to - out of fear of being alone, starting over, what others are saying, etc. And God brings a peace over me through a person, His Word, a song or something, telling me He is here and He wants me to keep moving forward. I know it's Him, because it's not what I expect to hear. Sometimes not even what I WANT to hear. And so I will stay as close to Him as I possibly can. He will never leave me, He will never forsake me.

Now the good stuff! I already mentioned how I've been plan A-ing me & my kiddos - great fun! What I'm not sure if I metioned or not is part of that involves me training for a 5K! It's using a couch-to-5K program. I'll start week 4 of 9 this week. I've never been a runner (or jogger) and pushing my body to do these workouts has been very empowering. Difficult - but worth every minute!

I've found a church that I feel at home at and will probably continue to go to. And I'm doing things with old and new friends here. I'm enjoying being me.

Wow. I am very moved by your update.
This is not an easy thing to struggle with but you are really having some awesome and inspiring moments of making sense of the whole dreadful mess.

Thank you for sharing your experiences.

Excellent clip from Dr. Harley on forgiveness.

Here's an excellent clip on forgiving the OW.
Radio clip on Forgiving the OW
Segment #2

Tell us what you think.

hmmmm, the pastor didn't mention that even god doesn't condone adultery, and allows for divorce in that case? i don't think god pussyfoots around this issue and requires the BS to "forgive and forget." and it's *because* you don't want to spend your life as a jailer that you are in PB!

i'm sorry you're feeling let down by others IRL, WHiP. but i'm so very glad that you can see for yourself that PB is working for YOU. so good on ya! keep up the good work. a 5K. geez, i'd have a hard time just walking up my street, so yay for you! when you're feeling down, just remember that your children have at least one parent who is fully devoted to them.

It seems like more and more pastors and church people these days forget the part about God not condoning adultery. I don't get it.

This kind of thing makes me really angry and it is not just pastors, counsellors and family members do it too.

Every Plan Ber must endure this stuff. I did. Every strong minded person must endure the 'just roll over and take it' advice from the weak who couldn't do it themselves.

The enabling counsellor, family member or pastor is usually a friend or authority figure to both WS and BS.

They hear both spouses say 'I want to be married'. The honest BS says 'I want to be married' and adds, honestly, 'but I have conditions - I must be safe, I must be loved, I must be cherished'

The dishonest WS says 'I just want to married without any crazy conditions at all - just love and marriage' The dishonesty prohibits him from telling that his secret condition is that he remain free to cheat.

The enabler wants the appearance of success, in his flock, family, or practice and so he reviews the problem.

They both want to be married and the enabler wants to save the marriage.

The BS is amenable, listens, seems reasonable and has conditions.

The WS is unreasonable, does not listen and blames these traits on the BSs conditions.

The enabler concludes that the simplest fix is to pursue the easier target and just get them to drop their conditions and that will give the WS what they want and the marriage will resume.

In name only of course. No vows will be kept. No one, least of all god, will be honoured.

This 'fix it' approach is akin to solving a burst tyre with bubble gum.



I don't know very much about scripture at all. But is there really a part in the bible where you are encouraged to obey sinners? And this is said to bring them around?

Is that really in the bible or is this just an assumption made by people who find it easier to target you than Frollo?

Are thes people pressurising Frollo?

Or just you?

Plan B the lot, I'd say.

You may find the following catchphrases useful. You need catchphrases with enablers:

"I will not encourage adultery"

"I will not reward adultery"

"I will not allow adultery under my roof"

"I will happily welcome back a remorseful husband right up until the day divorce is final" (if that is your gameplan, it's mine)

"If he chooses to divorce to avoid repenting, that is his choice"

Oh Wow! Thank you, thank you, thank you BH!

I've listened to these a couple times now. I see how Dr. H differentiates between "forgiveness" and "letting go". That cleared up a lot in my head! I've had many tell me and read by other authors that true forgiveness "restores a person to the place they held in your life before the offense." Then I'd have people urging me to "forgive" Frollo and his POSOW and I'd think "WHAT?!! Are you kidding me!? The affair hasn't even stopped for all I know! How could I possibly restore my relationship with them both?"

This clip helped me clearly understand that I can't, because forgiveness requires two people and forgiveness = re-established relationship. I can however move toward "letting go" (which, unlike forgiveness can take place unilaterily), which Plan B is helping me do!

Dr. H also clearly defined forgiveness in the Bible as being offered to persons who COULDN'T repay. Matthew 18, which he references, illustrates this. Jesus Christ himself demonstrated this! If there would have been a way for mankind to compensate for their sin, Jesus would not have had to die on the cross.

If a person who has offended or sinned against us CAN compensate, then forgiveness isn't necessary or warranted. In fact, I've come to the conclusion that doing so is the definition of enabling. Forgiving a person for an offense and requiring no compensation when he or she is in a place of being able to compensate enables their offending behavior to continue.

In the illustration Dr. H used, "forgiving" a large debt so the debtor could use that money to instead purchase a big boat, would enable that person to act in such a way again, expecting no consequences. Raising children offers another example. If I always "forgive" my child for coming home late from curfew when he's perfectly capable of compensating by adhering to the rules of the home, then my "forgiveness" only enables the behavior to continue.

I believe this is where I stand with Frollo. I am open to forgiving him, should he ask AND offer just compensation for the wrong. He has apologized endlessly, but words are not enough when compensation is possible. (Actually even his apologies aren't really apologies for his behavior. They've been vague "I'm so sorry all this has happened," or "I'm sorry you're hurting." Never "I'm sorry for what I've done to you." Hmph. Interesting.) In fact, his words WITHOUT actions proves to me he really has no remorse for his offense. True remorse leads to changed behavior.

I wish I'd understood these concepts years ago when Frollo first cheated with pornography, sexting, etc. I blindly believed God called me to forgive him and move on, never bringing it up again or requiring anything from Frollo. I see now that this enabled Frollo to cheat again because I required no compensation when he was perfectly capable of compensating. And he may never experience remorse this time because he wants the same treatment he got before - complete forgiveness without conditions.

One thing I'm learning is that God is not an enabler nor is He honored when WE enable others. It is called cheap grace and when offered repeatedly it leads to a person no longer desiring grace at all.

Great!

Nope. In fact the verses I've been quoted come from Matthew 19:8, "He (Jesus) said to them, 'Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so." Then an argument that divorcing would show the true hardness of my heart and inability to forgive like Christ forgave. Because they've heard from Frollo that he wants his marriage & family restored, but I've "cut off contact" so there's nothing he can do. boo-hoo-hoo...

(My comment posted before this one explains true forgiveness and explains why I am not expected to "forgive like Christ forgave" in the case of betrayal).

Some have also questioned, as have I, if a wife is permitted to divorce AT ALL because the times it is discussed in scripture it's the HUSBAND who is permitted to divorce, not the wife. The wife is to be submissive no matter what.

The verse I was referring to is found in 1 Peter 3:1-2.
"Wives, likewise, submit to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear."

I have no idea. I try not to ask questions. Thankfully Plan B gives me that advantage.

Very telling.

You're doing great!

Thanks for the catchphrases Indie!
Me personal favorite:
"I will happily welcome back a remorseful husband right up until the day divorce is final"
It's my gameplan, too.

Thanks PM. I was hoping you'd be able to read my thread updates today.

YOU'RE doing great!

First off, the Bible says we should forgive based on repentance. Your husband has not repented. God doesn't forgive us without repentance so we shouldn't have a higher standard than God. "So watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him." Luke 17:3

As far as being obediant to your unrepentant husband, the Bible tells us not to associate with darkness. And there is good reason for that. If we associate ourselves with those are in the darkness, that usually serves to drag us into the darkness. "Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them." Ephesians 5:11

Perfect!! You are doing a great job, WH! You are smart and savvy and able to see through all the smoke.

I'm so glad you found the clip helpful. Dr. H has such a great way of explaing things, even I can get it.

Like others have said, you're doing marvelous.

This is for a very simple situation, where one spouse is a believer, and the other one isn't.

Adultery takes the marriage covenant and shatters it all to pieces, just like when Moses threw down the tables of God's law. God never scolded Moses - the people had broken the covenant themselves. But when they said they wanted to try again, He had Moses make another set of tables, and God wrote on them again with His finger.

He certainly didn't forget what they had just done, but since they were repentant, He chose to forgive them and try again.

At times, God had to Plan B His own people, the story of Elijah being one very notable example. Three-and-a-half years of God going NC on His adulterous people....did that make Him hard-hearted, or did it make Him loving because He refused to enable their bad behavior, and wanted to give them their very best chance to come to repentance?

Basically what most of these people want is for YOU to sweep this under the rug so THEY can be comfortable.

I'm going to reply and then go back and read everyone else's responses.

The pastor may be a respectable pastor but that doesn't mean he's worth hoots as a marriage expert.

I am so proud of you!!!! You are doing amazing! And I'm so glad. I wish you the best with your marathon!

Let's see, there's the part about wiping the dust off your feet, about not casting your pearls before swine, about God wanting to vomit (over sin)...nope, don't see anything about obeying sinners!