HDW, unfortunately, you are misapplying Alanon principles and are not using common sense. You are trying to apply a principle that is meant for abusive alcoholics to those who are sober and far into recovery. That is not how it works.

The purpose of detachment is to protect the non alcoholic from the abuse of an active alcoholic. When the alcoholic is no longer abusive, that strategy is no longer warranted. When the alcoholic quits drinking and enters a program of recovery, that situation obviously changes so the same rules would not apply.

A marriage that has been hit by alcoholism should first arrest the alcoholism and THEN use the principles of MB to restore the romantic love in the marriage. We have many such couples here on this board. Several of us have gone through the MB course and have met Dr Harley.

Believe me, we don't subscribe to detachment or avoid "co-dependency" because creating a happy, romantic marriage depends on interdependency.

I agree that there are some concepts in Alanon that will always apply but not the above mentioned concepts. Practicing those when the drinking has been arrested will wreck a marriage.

I have been sober in AA for 27 years, HDW, and you need to understand that while many of us have used AA to address our drinking, we use MB to address our marriages. AA and Alanon do not have a program for marriages and do not profess to have one.

You need to rethink your position on this because it is not correct or healthy for those who have arrested their drinking. Many recovering alcoholics have used this program to create happy, healthy marriages.

HDW, you and I both know that many, many couples divorce AFTER the alcoholic quits drinking. I suspect that the misapplication of concepts against "co-dependency" is one of the culprits. THAT and the alcoholic's neglect of the marriage when he throws himself into AA.

The bottom line is that Alanon does not know how to save marriages and we need to keep that in mind when addressing people who WANT to save their marriages. Alcoholics can and do have wonderful, co-dependent marriages by using this program.

Here is what Harley says about this:

here

Thank you.
I will research this more.
When would you define recovery starting?
Is there a benchmark time period or otherwise ? 2 meetings, a sponsor, a week, 1 year?
What about demands ? Dr Harley told the lady in the radio clip posted by brain hurts that demands are acceptable. He said one drink and the alcoholic agrees to go back into rehab.....is there a time limit on this demand or is it forever?

Oh, I have no idea.

But if you are interested in alcoholics who have happy, successful marriages, why don't you ask us how we did it? Wouldn't that be the logical place to go?

Ask those of us in happy marriages if we employed any of the detachment tactics you recommend.

Right. Common sense dictates that abusive behaviour requires a shield. Why would the shield remain in use after the abuse is gone? Why does anyone need to shield themselves from loving behaviour? Any MB spouse would have the skills to pick up the shield again if abuse restarts.



MB counsels that you never fully trust any spouse and you should use RH to be more aware of their weaknesses.



Is it? I have been to AlAnon meetings where spouses of recovered alcoholics spoke proudly of their close, intimate, recovered marriages. They also counselled those suffering abuse how to use those AlAnon shields of detachment. I am not sure why you think anyone would have to drop AlAnon due to success. They can help others if they want to. I mentioned marriagebuilders to them too and many of them felt the concepts were compatible. They did say their programme did not specify recovery of marriages though.



Dr Harley says demands are always appropriate when the safety and wellbeing of the spouse is at stake. That's why we can make demands re violence, infidelity, anger management etc....

In my opinion, this is not exactly a demand, it is a boundary.

"You can drink if you want. But if you take one more drink, I will not be enthusiastic about continuing our marriage, except possibly if you enter rehab."

It's Extreme POJA [tm]!

This is the non-demanding way to address extremely abusive independent behavior.

As far as the time limit, for a recovered alcoholic, I would suggest this be a condition of the marriage forever.

According to Dr. Harley, we ALL live with our spouse by invitation only, and we can't expect that invitation to survive if we engage in extremely risky or abusive behavior:


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5067b_qa.html

I would call it a boundary too, but I have heard Dr H say that insiting on NC with a OP is technically a 'demand' but I think when the good of the marriage is at stake it is not selfish and therefore a boundary.

Love that 'guests' quote. Will have to check out that article. I think it is true that a lot of people try to bind each other and be close with force, that is not true intimacy. If someone wants to be abusive or abuse the marriage, you have to bring your own boundaries into play.

When I got here to MB, my then H was an active problem drinker and members here suggested I go to Alanon. I stayed here and in Alanon over 6 years now. I agree with the others that MB will be helpful in restoring your marriage. If you need help restoring your relationship with your higher power, yourself, and other loved ones, a good Alanon sponsor and group will help you towards that goal. They say to detach from the disease but not the person, which is what you are doing. You detach from the disease by allowing your spouse to manage his own illness in AA instead of trying to be his sponsor. I found a lot of support in having a sponsor who was married. After I had been in a year (she asked me to focus our time on Alanon literature that first year) I shared HNHN with her and we thought there was a lot of similarity in the tools and ideas, for example taking inventory so you invest your time together wisely doing your favorite things. No one in Alanon says you can't ask your spouse or other loved ones to do things that are special and meaningful to you. MB has the same concept, the thoughtful request, where you are asking the other to do the things you love, but not demanding or punishing in any way. The MB concepts like POJA are like what you see in Alanon as group conscience, using negotiation to find the answers that everyone is enthusiastic about. I find the synergy between the two programs important.

In a way, I'd have to say Dr. Harley contradicts himself. A lot of people find it demanding to insist that your spouse NOT DO something, but Dr. Harley has been known to say that's not a demand. At the same time, though, he distinguishes between asking your spouse not to do something, and telling them not to do it. He usually recommends the asking approach, but you are right, for severe behaviors (adultery, addiction, abuse), he condones demands because he feels nothing else is likely to work.

The distinction between whether you want your spouse to DO something, verses NOT DO something, is important, too. In the case of addiction, it's wanting your spouse to NOT DO something. In other words, to follow the POJA.

In this clip Dr. Harley explains why he says there are times to demand things at certain times.

This is an extremely helpful thread for me to read. I am picking up the books tomorrow. I am a WW madly and deeply in love with a man who has tortured me with polysubstance abuse for years now. Just based on the article I read searching for more information I see that my behavior(having an affair) is quite typical of women in my situation. It doesn't make me feel justified for doing what I did. There is no excuse that will justify an affair. However, I feel much much more like a human being/ non monsterous entity again. It is encouraging to know that AlAnon can have the potential to be really useful for me right now.

What has discouraged me is that I want to compensate my BH for the terrible things I have done and give him anything he needs to feel safe with me again. This won't work right now at all while he is actively drinking and drugging and gambling and placing blame on me for the behavior.

There is nothing I can do but tell him how his decisions make me feel now and what they made me feel in the time we have spent together? Yes? I have apologized sincerely for the A but I don't want to fall back into being permissive with his behavior to win him back.

I really want to hear this clip but cannot get it to work for me

HouseElf, I had to download firefox to hear the clips. There is some problem with java that has been reported to Dr Harley.

I am married to a sober alcoholic.
I am not detached. We are not detached. I am intimate ! We are intimate !!!!!
But, I was very detached in the beginning.

Do you meet the needs of your alcoholic husband? And do you believe you would have an intimate marriage if you did not?