indiegirl: You said that just being around me will hurt AI. If that's so, what can I do in the "now-times" that might help that feeling lessen? What will the result be if I am totally committed to this and show her that I'm here 100%?

You said I should be racking my brain for ways to show her I'm safe. I have a few ideas (that all pretty much conform to my EPs and MB theory), but do you have any ideas that I might try?

Re: AI's tough love - What would happen without it? I'd probably be in bed with someone else, divorced or separated, and end up totally miserable. That's not something I want. Now or ever. At least if I try this way - changing myself and healing AI while making her safe - the only thing I have to lose is all of the destructive garbage. And hell, it's something I want. AI is offering me the *potential of an amazing relationship and life with someone awesome. That's something I'd like to shoot for.

*I say potential because I'm aware that she has the choice to stay with me or not, regardless of how well I do at this.

Scotland: You're right. I have to right to ask or demand what I did. I got angry because I felt my wife was being treated unjustly. Scoff all you want, but that pissed me off. Alas, I'm the only person responsible for whether or not I get angry. I could have left it alone, but I didn't. That was my choice.

I'm not entirely sure about what you mean when you say that I'm not humble enough, so I'd like to ask for an explanation so I can understand, if you'd oblige.

As for wiggle room... I'm positive that I have NONE. AI has made that very clear to me. Several times in the last 48 hours, in fact. I'm in this, hardcore. More on that at the bottom or the post.

I'd like to contest your accusation that I'm high on myself regarding the MB program. I know what I have to do, know that I have to do it, but I'm not entirely familiar with the program yet. I will be, mark my words, but I'm not there yet. What I think you're confusing this with are my attacks on people who are trying to help me through their use of "tough love", and the fact that I've been a huge jerk to all of you. It's something I'm destroying in myself, and the focus on that is high priority.

I fully understand that AI is close to that point, Scotland, and I am absolutely terrified. I'm here because I'm lucky, and the recovery and protection is all on me (as well as many other things). I understand why you're all so angry, as well. It sucks, but I understand it. Facing this head on is a blast that I didn't (and refused) to believe. I don't quite know how to be humble, but I'm sure you guys will beat me down to it. And I'm grateful for that.

As for the "I's" and "me's"... please help...

Markos: Glad to hear that you guys won't be ditching her.

I'm in the read and reread phase right now. AI and I have a series of books and articles that need to be read by a specific date (under threat of being turfed out), and I'm hitting that list like a tsunami.

Correction re: you calling me lazy: I was lazy, intentionally distracting myself, and refusing to believe that I had to change everything myself. Don't sell it short, man. There's a TON of work to be done here. Not just laziness. It's everything.

Thanks for the advice regarding anger management, Markos. I'll make MB the core and all of this other stuff the buffer to shine it all up.

Prisca: The fact that you just said "You can succeed at this" gave me more hope than anything else. I'm not giving you lip service here. That just kicked my... not gonna say it.

What's going to change? Both. My anger is out the window, and my marriage will be affair-proofed. Add to that several other precautions and safety measures and VOIL�, safe and happy AI, and a happy and safe moi.

BrainHurts: Thank you for the clip. AI and I listened to that one together. I've decided that rereading the AO chapter in LB is the #1 priority for me right now, as well as the articles on the site, and listening to the MB radio segments relating to AO's.

DoroM: I hear you regarding the phone. I'm taking these EPs as serious as a heart attack now, and am on them completely.

As for the humour and the such, I'm not really all that concerned with anyone here liking me at all. I was at one point, but not anymore. That's not important. What I'm here for is guidance and advice. Not friendship. I don't want slack. I'm here to work, not for friends. I don't think it's healthy to have friends on the internet, anyways. Well... not anymore.

I appreciate the fact that you said I *sound* fake and contrived. I won't convince you that I'm sincere, and I'm not in the business of doing so, but I'll show you if you keep up with my thread for a while.

Wullfpack_girl: Remorse = doing whatever it takes, for however long it takes. Got it. (Not trying to parrot. I'm writing it out to cement it in the brain-bucket)

Thank you for clarifying and for the advice that followed. I'm not sure I understand why your marriage it at "that" place, but then again, I've not searched out your story. I've pretty much stuck to my and AI's threads.

SusieQ: I've noticed that, and would like to honestly apologize for that comment and all the comments I've made during my long, gaslighting stay on this forum. I do feel terrible and disgusted when I reread them. I can't imagine how AI feels when she does.

Consider that type of posting gone.

Littlebit3: I had to quote this one, if only to answer it in one fell swoop:


I won't be letting go of AI any time soon. Or ever. What I'm letting go of is myself and all the badness that comes with it. Radical change and dedication are the only things that will save this marriage, and they all have to change within ME. Now.

AI is not to blame for anything. At all.

I am.

It's my job to make this better.

I will not let her go. I will give her what she deserves. She deserves everything good and amazing. I will be that for her if she lets me. Starting now.

**********************************************************************

Today was a pretty killer day. No AO's... no Lovebusting at all, really. When I found I was on the verge of something, I snapped it back wicked fast and changed my approach/tune. I have to fine-tune the anger, though.

Markos might be able to help me with this one:

I have pretty brutal road rage. Not in the "I'm going to get out of this car and feed you your windshield" kind of way - but more like the "yelling at the idiot in front of me because he didn't signal" or the "your car is stupid because it's green and therefore YOU'RE STUPID" way.

How does one deal with that? I've decided that biting my tongue is the best bet, but I want these thoughts out of my head and focussed on a great convo with AI, or, god forbid, the ROAD.

Any suggestions?

AI and I went hunting for information regarding an upcoming business plan that will take us out of financial straits and keep me in a place where it is IMPOSSIBLE for me to have an affair. I'm excited, and so is she. More to come on that when information is solid, but this venture coupled with strict adherence to my EPs will be a very tight ship. Couple all of that with a radical change in attitude and I'll have to build a big cabinet for all of my #1 dad/husband mugs and macaroni ties.

I'm whipping through the requests (requirements) that AI has given me, and am finding that it's possible to do it all of them as well as all the household things that need doing. Letting AI sleep in every morning for about 2 hours gives the kids and myself time to hang out, and allows the opportunity to do some of the more mundane things without infringing on our UA, or any other, time we might have together. Being on medical leave has been a boon for us as well. We're together 24/7 - for better or worse.

I rewrote my EPs and condensed/broadened their definitions to encompass MORE things that will keep me solid. AI has approved, and has added deal breakers to the mix (which I'll post at a later date, if she's enthusiastic about it). She's basically singled out EPs that, if broken even in the slightest, will get me nothing but a one way ticket to GET-OUT-ville - population: me.

Now for a huge "me" moment that I'm concerned about - When AI and I were driving around looking at these business prospects, we were talking about our financial situation, EPs, our sitch in general, and a whole heap of other things. And then it hit me. The whole combined weight of this situation slammed into me like a wrecking ball.

There's NO WAY I want to screw this up. EVER. I freaked out at the mere thought that something as simple as not finishing a book by a specific date will get me turfed. When I told y'all that I know AI ain't joking around, I meant it. It's real. I mean, it's always been real, but I want you to know that I fully understand.

This is it. No more chances.

Consider me schooled. I'm going to go get to work.

Here are some excellent clips on AO to start with.

Anger Mgmt 101

Some excellent radio clips on AO.
Radio clip on AO
Another radio clip on AO

There are no external conditions that make having an affair impossisble. More inconvenient, yes; more difficult to varying degrees, sure. Impossibe? Nope. Sex happens in monasteries and in prisons.

Ultimately, affairs don't happen because an individual chooses for them not to happen.

BV

There was a pretty big IF that followed that statement.
You can succeed at this IF you follow Dr. Harley's guidelines to the letter.


How?



How?

First I'm going to admonish you not to expect to be spoonfed.

Then I'm going to repeat some of my posts from yesterday, with some bolding added:


Am I correct in thinking that at this point, you don't know what Dr. Harley says to do to eliminate angry outbursts?


Have a listen:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=238

Have a read:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8122_neg.html

TRT?
I thought you were going to post everyday?

i'm pretty sure he's off polishing his patent leather shoes so he can keep tap, tap, tap dancing.

Hi Prisca,

Just a quick note before I go wrestle the hose away from the 3yo...

I appreciate your note, and wanted to let you know that I'm required to post at least once a week, but am trying to post as often as possible. Last night ran a little late, what with talking to AI, reading a thread called "The Locus of Control" by Pepperband, helping with some very cranky children, and drafting an undated separation agreement.

We have yet to sign it, but we'll do that once we have someone to witness it. Another reason it wasn't signed last night was the fact that we couldn't agree on custody/access.

Regarding the actual argument, I made sure not to raise my voice, show any disrespect, or get angry in any little way. My request was that I have access every other weekend and a weekday evening, with three weekday evenings when I don't have a weekend. My initial request was unrestricted... but even I figured out immediately that that would be absolutely ridiculous.

There are some familial issues, on my side, that prevent me from having the children around certain people. Upon separation, and until I have my own place, I wouldn't be able to have the children overnight or even at the place where I live. I thoroughly agree with that (given the circumstances), and have even said that we should stipulate it in the agreement.

Now, I'm not entirely sure what the problem was that led to the argument, but I guess my being quite precise about the custody and access subject made it seem like a separation was either imminent or eventual. I also initially mistook what AI was saying about the above to mean that I wouldn't be able to see them ever. I was wrong, and she quickly clarified it for me.

What I was trying to do by being precise was to create a document that wouldn't be contested in the Canadian Legal System, if presented to a judge for any reason whatsoever.

In the agreement, I took all of the debt (which is a lot) and inserted a clause completely indemnifying and keeping AI safe from any financial responsibility regarding said debt; agreed to sign over the van entirely while keeping the balance of the debt in my name; given her our only two "family" assets (the van and computer) clear and free; have agreed to take out and keep a $500,000 life insurance policy with AI as the sole beneficiary; and a whole lot more (including giving AI 55% of my net salary and paying her spousal support - even though the program used to determine that amount landed AI with $0.00 in spousal support. That makes NO sense to me at all, and is not okay. Spousal support is a non-issue, to me. I will support her and the children, no questions asked.)

My lawyer has advised me against ALL of these moves, but I don't care. What I care about is the fact that a judge might deem the document to not be fit in the eyes of Canadian Legal standards, and might make AI lose most of these agreements due to the equalization "rules" or whatever garbage they are.

Frankly, it would be good to be able to have her draft the thing and I'll just sign it (save for my ability to see the kids fairly and often), but I'm not sure if this is something she's up to right now.

So I took it upon myself to format and fill one out with all of her interested in mind completely.

So... is being precise and trying to adhere to "legal" standards a bad thing that landed us in an argument? Yes.

Was it something I could have avoided? Yes.

Was my handling of the situation wrong? Yes.

Would I agree to see my children less than 40% of the time? No.

Did I handle myself in a civil and non-aggressive manner? Yes.

Did I push AI too far in order to get her to make a decision that she wasn't ready for? Very much yes.

This one is on me, as I am the only person in control of my actions. I'll be taking care of it properly when we reconvene tonight or tomorrow. I want to help her feel a bit better about things again before we hit this one again.

The main thing is that the document has been created. That was an EP and a demand/request that she made.

Really, I don't care what the thing says as long as our kids are taken care of mentally, emotionally, physically, and financially.

So... that turned out to not be so short...

I'll be back tonight.

The Blue Plate Special is every other weekend and Wednesday nights. 50/50 is easy to switch off weeks. 40/50 gets trickier. Creates a lot of back and forth. That is not healthy for the kids or you or AI. I don't know how you are going to work any real custody agreement out until the "familial" issues are straightened out. Friday, Saturday, Sunday nights and every Wednesday. Add Tuesday or Thursday to the off weekend week. Pick-up and drop off at school. Then if the kids are out of school, there needs to be a set time for pick up by the person who is going to be getting them. I see this working for quite a few divorced families.

I am glad to see you putting the effort into this. You can't stay closed. Open yourself up completely. Take the risk. It would be worth it to become the man and husband you were meant to be wouldn't it? AI will be able to focus on being the best she can be too.

You're asking for help with understanding humility, right?

Then let's start with this simple statement I quoted above, OK.

I will not let her go.

Although this seems noble to you, it actually is seen as very arrogant when read in the context of what you've done to your wife. It's not humble at all. If you remember right, she's a victim of a cruel, unjust perpetrator that vowed to love, honor and cherish her. Kinda tough for a victim to swallow that you're going to make her feel safe by, "not letting her go". See, she's not a hostage, nor does she ever want to be.
Humility, in your situation would exemplify an attitude where you would express/acknowledge that your wife has the right to exit the marriage and that you would honor her wishes if she chose to do so.

Do you see the difference?


I will give her what she deserves. She deserves everything good and amazing. I will be that for her if she lets me. Starting now.

Again, your desire to appear noble is actually very telling of your lack of empathy and again shows no humility at all. I'm not attacking you here, I'm trying to show you what must change in your innermost being if you wish for your wife and your marriage to recover from the depth of injury the both have sustained.

Though I agree that it would be wonderful for your wife to have "everything good and amazing", as long as you're in her life, it will be impossible. But here is where humility can come in! You can acknowledge you are now and will forever be a source of pain to her. You can accept that you perpetrated an assault upon her, and although she may well recover from this betrayal, she will never forget the man you are capable of becoming.
Hard to swallow?
Maybe!
But this is where humility begins. We put our pride in our pocket and run the white flag of surrender up the pole.

Stay with me, I'm not done yet....



I will be that for her if she lets me

Here is the part that that worries me most. You'll need to see clearly where this attitude needs to shift in order for your marriage to have any chance of long term recovery.

You'll need to discover several things. Two of which are; you are neither good nor are you amazing. The third is that it's not necessary for anyone to "LET YOU" make lasting changes. In other words, the onus is not on your wife in any of this. You can make these positive, humble changes whether your marriage recovers or not.

You see, humility doesn't proclaim; "Starting now, I will be good and amazing and everything my wife deserves".

Humility is the opposite of this type of proclamation.

Humility proclaims these things;

- My best efforts in this lifetime have yielded a harvest that will cause my marriage and my family to starve unto death.

- I do not know how to adequately protect my wife from my thoughtless behaviors, nor do I know how to properly care for her in the manner she truly needs and desires.

- I need help becoming the man God designed me to be.

- I believe, with God's help, He can restore our marriage and our lives from the ashes that I humbly lay before Him.

- I will pick up the tools that have been laid before me and I will ask questions, follow through with answers, and post my work for analysis from other in order to survive this affair.


I know that was alot from one small paragraph, but let's start there!

Humility allows us to post these things without the fear of constructive criticism.

Humility is a desire to go to any length for the help we need.

How can you make the changes necessary until you have others help you see your blind spots?

Please make posting your EP's in there entirety a priority.

This is one of the most insightful, intelligent and wise posts I have ever read on MB.

Powerful words indeed. Words which every WS would benefit greatly IF truly internalized.

Way to go HPB.

No, that's your job. We've already given all MB advice. Show her active care and thought is all I am saying.

As for can you do anything to stop your presence hurting her? No, there isnt. She has already been through more than any human can stand and I am very worried about her. You will just have to run that gauntlet and be prepared to see her go through incredible pain and anger.

Keep posting and dont screw up.

WOW HPB!!! I agree with 20yearhistory!!!! Very, VERY good. Says it perfectly!!! You can't completely open up, filet yourself unless you are willing to be THIS humble!! That is where change can begin. WOW!!!

amazing!

Ok, news flash. (from somebody with experience in custody battles with serial cheating personality disordered waywards).

When the court or custody evaluator decides, you are going to get MUCH MUCH MUCH less time with your kids.

Fact is that parents like you are much more likely to emotionally and physically neglect and abuse their children. There is an overwhelming amount of evidence out there.

I'm rooting for you and I'm rooting for your marriage, but you need a mirror here, what you have in mind for custody is not going to happen. That is simply NOT in the best interest of the kids.

This is custody cake eating.

In addition, if you can't make your marriage work, it will only proof that you are unable to change and an unfit parent.

This is a delusional and selfish perspective on what is best for your children.

ok, i'm so tired of this i could

miles and miles of empty words, and broken promises, including last night's argument. (all from YOUR thread)

NO words of what you HAVE done (action) to SHOW AI you're protecting her. how have you treated her? besides your latest argument, which just flushed any LB$ you may have made?

oooo, you put your vehicle in BOTH your names! whop-de-do!

yet it's the first thing your post comments on - YOUR loss.


WOW. you really think you're running the show, don'tcha? these are NOT the words of a WS looking for that F. these are the words of a spoiled, entitled [censored].


have you done this yet? (no.) HOW???

you really have your head so far up your [censored] you have no idea if it's day or night. AI's "justifiable demands" are EXTREME PRECAUTIONS. if you can't see that, you are nowhere NEAR starting recovery. you simply DO NOT CARE that making your wife feel safe should be ALL you're thinking about, and ALL you're doing right now!

uh-hmm. that's all this is to you - a game.

uh-huh. what have you demonstrated about this? because so far, i've seen NOTHING to support this statement.

it's ALL necessary. you don't see that because you don't care. no one here has the time to just "bust your balls" when there are other posters who truly need help. you're stealing from them. but you're such a selfish git, i'm sure THAT never crossed your mind.

you've been doing that all by yourself for years. i would be surprised to hear there's any cake left, metaphorical or not.

nope, no awesome seen anywhere here.

but lots of what you're GOING to do. JUST DO IT! i'm a sick to death hearing about your issues! guess what? no one here cares about YOUR issues! sack up, man, and deal with them, or get lost already!

so...more stuff you HAVEN'T done. and yet another throw-away comment that you're "working" on it, which means "doing nothing."

this one's easy. SHUT YOUR MOUTH. whatever's percolating in your brain shouldn't just pop out your mouth like some kind of broken vending machine. you are a grown man, right??

yet more proof you are not doing "the right thing" from your own mouth. this one's easy too. you just don't give a crap.


yadda yadda yadda, blah blah blah


yadda. blah.

as a woman with a formerly angry DH, i can tell you this doesn't impress us AT ALL. anger is anger, no matter who/what you're taking it out on. what we want is for you NOT TO GET ANGRY. anger = out of control. if you can't control yourself, you are not safe. period.

re: broken EPs:
you already know the answer to this, and you don't like it. EPs are non-negotiable. that means when broken, the proper consequence is plan B, possibly combined with plan D.

argh, i can't even be bothered going through the rest of your bullsp1t. really the only other thing i wanted to highlight was your constant asking of "how should this look?" "what should i say?" when what you really want is to know what to say to US to fool us into thinking you're actually doing something about your M.

in a nutshell, i think you are mentally and emotionally abusing your wife, if not physically with your AOs. you are also controlling her ("i'll NEVER let her go.") you are a danger to your wife and children, and your posting here has been a big waste of time, for everyone, including AI, because she thinks your posting here will help you learn something, but you are learning NOTHING. you are teflon.

so... trt, i ask you: have you told AI you love her today? have you apologized to her today? have you hugged her today? whether or not she accepts these things from you is immaterial. but you, mister instant-gratification, i'm sure see not-accepting as a reason NOT TO DO.

have you asked AI what the one thing you could do for her today is? what was it? have you DONE it?

have you scheduled UA time for this week? and what will you be dong during that UA time?

these are the things you SHOULD be posting about, that you WOULD be posting about, if you were serious about your M.

you have demonstrated NOTHING to support this marriage at all. i recommend you stop wasting time here and go read some WHs threads to see how it's really done. and don't come back here until you've got something to say about how you are SHOWING remorse, just compensation, care for your M and love for your W. you won't do this by showing your wife you are willing to use your children as pawns. an unsigned, "not approved by my lawyer" agreement is yet another building block in the end of your M. you seem to have a LOT of those.

maybe the LB$ imagery doesn't appeal to you. think of your M right now as three piles of bricks, as you are on your way to building two separate structures. one is called M. one is called D. you have recently been unable to make a payment on the bricks for the M side, so that pile's pretty small. however, you already paid in full for the orders of bricks on the D side. there has recently been a delivery of a whole pile of usable bricks for your structure, but they can be put in either pile (they are the 3rd pile).

everytime you write "i will, i am going to, in the works, in progress" you aren't taking any bricks out of the M pile, but you ARE adding to the D pile. then, when you have an AO, or argument about an important issue like child custody, you REMOVE bricks from the M pile and put them on the D pile.

when you no longer have any bricks in the M pile, you can still add to the D pile from the 3rd pile of bricks. but remember, any individual bricks that get into the M pile can be quickly put over to the D pile. it takes very hard work to get the M pile back up to snuff, never mind get rid of the bricks in the D pile, not to mention getting all the 3rd pile of bricks going into the M pile!

or, you can do what you're doing, and just leave the M pile empty, and keep adding to the D pile, until one of you *finally* decides enough is enough, and slaps together your D structure with some paperwork.

trt, you aren't worth wasting my gym time on, so i'm really irritated at myself now for having wasted MY TIME - my ME time, which i have very little of, on YOU.

please do not feel you have to reply to me, because i have no intention of coming back to your thread, which just makes my head and heart hurt for AI. i will not give up one more second of my time on a hopeless case like you.

TRT, as long as you don't fight the SA, it will go through.

I don't feel like you have given enough on it either. You're giving yourself wiggle room.

And I am VERY aware that in Canada, if you have your children 40% of the time, you don't have to pay CS. Don't think that little thing slipped my notice. You want to make sure you get your kids 40% of the time? Why did you pick that amount exactly?

Also, it is untrue that AI would be entitled to ZERO SS. It is decided by a judge, and they tend to not want to give it in most cases, but they DO give it.

I'm not going to even comment about the grotesquely self-indulgent arrogance of all of your posts...others have done so in painstaking detail.

On the issue of custody...I think you've missed a huge point. ANY time that you get with the kids...is time you've taken away from AI. I think she realizes this, and the kids, and time with them, is probably a huge reason why you're getting a chance right now. Because while you think, "oh, great, every other weekend, then I have half of my weekends free for my single life!" She thinks, "wow, I would lose half of my weekends with my children. I would miss special moments in their lives. THEY would miss things, too, like sports events, birthday parties, etc, because surely their selfish father would want to control them and not have their normal lives."

Do you really care about your kids? If so, you wouldn't be destroying your home in anger in front of them. You would be focusing on your marriage and doing whatever it takes, for as long as it takes, to prove to AI and your children your loving attention as a husband and father. You would not use them as excuses why you CAN'T get things done, and instead use them as motivation to GIT 'ER DONE.

I think Scotland and Pineneedle see through you pretty well on the custody issue, just as we all do on your marriage "recovery."

ok, i'm back because i just heard this:

"you have to get to the point where you stop thinking about yourself, and 100% focus on someone else. it's amazing the love that develops when you can do that."

now, normally, trt, i wouldn't waste this breath on you. but i post it for AI, in the very slim hope that underneath your calloused exterior and blackened heart, you may have a kernel of a real person who might be able to care about his wife and children. think of the love you could generate if you opened yourself to them.

and that is my last word :O)