I have some questions about using Marriage Builders principles to try to restore romantic love in a dating relationship.

I'm in a 2-1/2 year dating relationship that started out really great, we were (and still are) very compatible, talked about marriage, and it seemed like it was only a matter of when, not if. But in the last 1/2 year, I have lost the feeling of romantic love for my girlfriend. I'm in the state of "I love you but I'm not IN love with you." I've expressed this to her, and of course she is hurt by that, but says she is still in love with me. In an attempt to restore the feeling of romantic love, I turned to Marriage Builders.

From what I read in Marriage Builders books and web articles, a lot of people turn to Marriage Builders for help because they�ve lost the love they once had and want to get it back. The advice seems to be based on the idea that romantic love will be restored when couples follow certain policies (undivided attention, joint agreement, radical honesty, etc.) to help them meet each others� emotional needs and avoid love busters; in Love Bank terms, romantic love will be restored by maximizing deposits and minimizing withdrawals. The impression I get is that if couples follow these principles, romantic love WILL be restored. I'm wondering if this is ALWAYS true, or only true in the context of marriage.

My girlfriend and I are reading �His Needs Her Needs� and have next on our list �I Promise You� and �Fall in Love, Stay in Love,� we�ve read a number of thought provoking articles on the Marriage Builders website, we�ve filled out the Emotional Needs Questionnaire, are working on the Love Busters Questionnaire, and plan to do the Recreational Enjoyment Inventory. Through the Emotional Needs Questionnaire, we have identified some needs to work on and are working on them. We are commited to working on our relationship and spend a fair amount of time doing so, but lately we�ve been feeling emotionally drained and realize we�re probably spending too much time working and not enough time simply enjoying life with each other.

If we were married, there would be a sense of commitment that says we work on the marriage to make it fulfilling for both of us, and we don�t give up, even if the work is difficult; the thought that maybe the relationship isn�t right for us would not be an option (barring emotional neglect or physical abuse). But we�re NOT married. In a dating relationship, the commitment of marriage is not there, and if the work gets too tedious, ending the relationship IS an option. Having that option makes me wonder how much effort I should put into employing Marriage Builders principles to try to restore romantic love. Is it as simple as following Marriage Builders policies to get it back? Or is the fact that I�ve lost romantic love an indicator that maybe this relationship isn�t right for me. And how do I discern the difference between a dating relationship in which Marriage Builders principles will work and one in which they won't work because the relationship is not right?

I'd like to hear other's thoughts about this topic. Thanks.

Just a couple thoughts from Dr. Harley that might apply to your situation:

Dr. Harley says that relationships typically don't stay stable: they either keep getting better, or keep getting worse.

Dr. Harley sometimes suggests that a single person date thirty people before getting married!

Dr. Harley says that if either one of you is not in love, or has any doubts, you should not get married. (I say this because some people try to fix the situation you describe by getting married.)

Dr. Harley says that if a relationship has passed the two year mark and hasn't led to marriage, it is not likely to lead to marriage.

All that said, I see no reason why you shouldn't give it a shot to recover your love.

Do you live together? According to Dr. Harley, living together before marriage makes it much less likely that you will establish the Buyer's agreement that is needed to maintain romantic love.

Is there someone else? According to Dr. Harley, people don't typically notice they are out of love unless they are in love with someone else. It's not impossible, but extremely unlikely.

Who do you admire? Any women come to mind?

Since you are not married, there is nothing wrong with you being in love with someone else, if that is the case. But it's something to be aware of, as the cause. If you were to marry your girlfriend some day, you would need to never have any form of contact with the someone else, if there is one.

Have you read all the articles in Dr. Harley's Preparing for Marriage section of this website?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5510_qa.html

You might also want to read Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders.

Whether you stay together, or not.

Why aren't you married, at this point? I'm not saying you should be, but is there a reason why you're not?

Great questions, thanks Markos. Gotta run for the moment, but I will reply tomorrow and look forward to your advice. Thanks!

I'm a firm believer that if you need to read books or get therapy to help a dating relationship, then the relationship is not the right one for you.

I don't believe in having to "work" on a dating relationship.

AGG

Dr. Harley answers this very question.
Radio clip on a man losing the feeling while dating at 8:20 mark
Segment #2

Tell us what you think.

Thanks for the feedback everyone, it gave me some good perspectives with which to look at my situation.

Hmmm, I guess my relationship would fall into the category of getting worse. It started out great, but as it got deeper, trying to resolve issues has crowded out the fun times we used to have. It doesn't seem so great anymore, but the thing is, my girlfriend and I feel that we have gone deeper in a relationship than either of us has been able to before, and we really like that. We have very good emotional transparency, even with sometimes hurtful emotions, and it feels great to have that with someone. It's something we both value a lot, and it's what keeps us working at it.

I know, that was the subject of my very first post about a month ago. I probably didn't explain my situation in enough detail in that post, but Dr. Harley's 30-people suggestion made me wonder if I should try dating other women. It was probably around the time of that post that I started noticing the loss of romantic love, and I wondered "should I work on this relationship to get the love back (because I value my girlfriend a lot), or should I try dating others to see what else is out there?" I haven't had much dating experience, but she has and is convinced I'm right for her. I wish I was as convinced about her as she is about me.

I can see how some people might try to fix the situation by getting married. We don't live together (about 30 miles apart), and one of my complaints is we don't spend enough time together. I have wondered if getting married would solve this problem since we'd be living together. But don't worry, that is not a reason I would use to get married. And thank you for this piece of Dr. Harley's advice. I want to be in love with the woman I marry, and I'm sure she'd want me to be in love with her too.

That statistic is a little troubling since we've been dating a little over 2-1/2 years. Something to keep in mind....

No, and we've also heard that the divorce rate for couples who live together before marriage is higher than for those who don't. My girlfriend and I are in agreement on not living together before marriage.

Interesting about not noticing being out of love unless they're in love with someone else. I would think you could also notice you're not in love if your partner's love busters outweighed their love deposits, even without there being someone else.

In my case, there is definitely no one else. My guess as to a potential cause is that we spend too much time thinking and analyzing and not enough time simply living life and enjoying each other. The heaviness of some of our conversations is wearying, and I think that might be a contributing factor.

Yes, I've read them several times, and they're very good. Now that you've prompted me, I think I'll read them again, thanks!

I've read online articles describing Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders, but I haven't read the book. From the articles I've read, I feel that I understand the basic principles and am not sure how much value I'd get out of the book. Does the book have a lot more information that isn't described online?

There are two main reasons:

1. I'm afraid of making another mistake. This would be my second marriage (2nd for my girlfriend also). The first time I got married, I assumed it would last a lifetime, and when it didn't, it shook my foundation. My divorce showed that I'm capable of making a mistake in choosing a marriage partner, and I don't want to do it again.

2. The second reason involves one of my girlfriend's sons. She has two teenage sons from a previous marriage, and from the outset, she made it very clear that she was not looking for someone to fill their dad's shoes (even though he's not very involved with them, only sees them every other weekend). As our relationship deepened, however, she discovered an emerging need of hers - she does indeed want me to integrate into her sons lives and give them the male influence they missed growing up. I have two college age kids, whom I love very much, and in my previous marriage I always wanted more kids, so it seemed like I was natural fit for my girlfriend's need. The problem has been that one of her sons, simply put, rubs me the wrong way. He is very disrespectful towards his mom, is lazy, overweight, and unmotivated, sits around watching TV all day, and does very poorly in school; in terms of Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders, he's the ultimate freeloader. My girlfriend's need for me to get involved seems to fall under the category of Family Commitment. To try to meet that need, we had a few appointments with her son's therapist (he is a troubled individual, has been on various medications for depression and anxiety, and once spent 10 days in a local psych unit), but as I gradually learned how difficult it would be to manage her son, I felt pressure forming in our relationship. I disciplined my own kids at an early age, and they grew up fairly well-behaved; but her son has not been disciplined, and he sometimes gets out of control. She wants help in dealing with him, but it's awkward for me to step in and assume a fatherly role because I have no experience in dealing with such an unruly child. Anyways, this situation has created tension and I think it's a big reason I'm not in love with her like I used to be. I still love her, a lot, but I'm not as optimistic about marrying her as I was before learning how difficult her one son is, especially in light of the poor statistics I've read concerning second marriages and blended families.

Some might give the advice that if I can't get along with her kids, I should not pursue this relationship. Logically, I understand that point of view, but there are emotions involved. When my girlfriend and I are together, alone, we really get along great. In terms of the four intimate emotional needs, we are extremely compatible and have no problems whatsoever. I feel like I WOULD be in love with her if she didn't have the need for Family Commitment that's turning out to be so difficult for me to meet. We've talked about the possibility of waiting for her son to reach 18 and move out of the house before deciding to get married, but 3+ years seems like a long time to wait. From her point of view, waiting for her son to move out means I'm choosing to not be involved in a major part of her life right now. This issue has caused tension in our relationship, and I think it has influenced my feelings of love for her. Although I'm generally the kind of person who likes to help other people, and I want to help my girlfriend, the thought of marrying her and having to live with her one son concerns me and is a reason I haven't pursued marriage.

I'm ok with working on a dating relationship, especially working out the details of our relationship (filling out EN forms, etc). What I'm wondering about is the amount of work. Lately, it seems that we've been spending too much time analyzing, and it's becoming tiring.

My girlfriend and I are starting to question, maybe the amount of work is a sign that we're not in the right relationship? It's confounding because we both agree that if her one son wasn't an issue, there would be no question that this is the right relationship for us.

Thanks BrainHurts, I'm very interested to hear this. I'm on a computer right now that doesn't allow me to listen to the radio clips, but I will listen to it a little later.

Keep learning, I will post more later, but you should know that blended families with step children have an 85% divorce rate because of conflicts between the step parent and the step children. And when they are the same sex, it is often even more problematic because they tend to be very competitive.

Dr Harley recommends NEVER disciplining your step child because this causes enormous conflict in the marriage. Difficulty with step children is the norm and it is that difficulty that often destroys these marriages. The main reason is because these couples often find it impossible to use the policy of joint agreement because one parent loves the child and the other does not.

Have you read Dr Harley's articles on blended families? Here is a good one: How to Raise Children in a Blended Family and Keep Love in Your Marriage

Wow, BrainHurts, that was me! I sent that question in to the radio show and can't believe they answered it. On the MB website it says "When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast," but I never received an email. I've been really busy at work lately and haven't listened to the show in a while and was stunned to hear them read my question. Thank you for posting that link, I don't think I would've heard it if you hadn't.

What was read on the show wasn't exactly what I wrote, but for the record and in case anyone is interested, here's what I transcribed:

In response to your prompt, tell us what you think,

I think Dr. Harley makes three points:

• My girlfriend is not meeting my emotional needs the way she used to.
• He doesn't feel as strongly about recommending his plan in a dating relationship.
• He discourages us from continuing our relationship.

Joyce makes three very good points too:

• I'm meeting my girlfriend's emotional needs.
• I don't want to get married feeling the way I do.
• I used to love her, and I want to get that back.

I think I need to explain my situation involving my girlfriend's son better so that Dr. Harley understands more of the problem. I don't think it's so much that my girlfriend isn't meeting my emotional needs, it's that I'm not meeting hers, and as a result I feel inadequate, which has somehow caused me to lose the in-love feeling. I just sent a follow-up email to Joyce, and she responded saying she was sorry she didn't respond the first time but somehow got my email address mixed up with someone else's. Wow, I'm impressed with how quickly she responded.

A couple thoughts about Dr. Harley's response above. He says that he doesn't feel as strongly about recommending his plan in a dating relationship. Part of my follow-up question to him is:

Joyce's observation that I used to love my girlfriend and I want it back, reminds me of part of my initial question where I said I'm in the state of "I love you but I'm not IN love with you." Although Joyce says that I used to love my girlfriend, the truth is I still do. I think there is a difference between loving someone and being in love with them. I'm very interested in these two concepts and the relationship between them. As I learn more, my understanding changes, and currently I think of "I love you" as an action and "I'm IN love with you" as an emotional response. Loving someone is a choice, and it's characterized by deep care for another person. Being IN love with someone is not a choice; it's a response to how they treat you. In the context of a man-woman relationship, if you love someone, you care enough about them to meet their emotional needs, thus causing them to fall in love with you. And if they love you back, they care enough to meet your needs, which causes you to fall in love with them.

That's my current understanding of the difference between love and in-love, and I'd love to hear what others think.

Melody, I'm truly honored that you responded. Please realize I'm not being sarcastic. I've seen your posts in other forums and think very highly of your thoughts. And, I'm totally amazed by 62,000+ posts! It doesn't even seem possible.

I'm anxiously awaiting your "I'll post more later." I have heard about the dismal divorce statistics for blended families, and it's a reason I'm cautious about marriage in this situation. Your comment about NEVER disciplining step-children prompts me to add a scenario to my situation that may help you understand the magnitude of the problem I'm up against.

My girlfriend's problem-son can be very combative. When I'm in her home and he acts up, I try to be silent and let her handle him, but once in a blue moon I can't take it any more. In the incident I'm thinking of, he lashed out at her when she told him to get off the computer and do his homework. When his language turned foul, she reprimanded him as usual by taking away his cell phone. At this point, he started angrily shouting amazingly bad things like "you effing c_nt, I hate you, you effing b_tch," and it went on. When she started crying, I couldn't take it anymore and I went upstairs where he was shouting at her in her bedroom, and I told him to get out. He looked at me and didn't move, so I said "if you don't get out, I'm going to smack you." He looked at me for a short second and then left.

I was horrified that I had threatened violence. It's hard to know for sure, but I think if he had challenged me, I would've hit him, and possibly more, because my temper was red-lining. My girlfriend was glad I stood up to him, but I told her I felt terrible. She tried to make me believe I did the right thing, but I don't like the fact that I was inches away from violence.

Anyways, the point is, the situation can get toxic, and I'm to the point where I don't really want to be around her one son. Her other son is a darling, and I could easily fit in a step-father role with him. I love my girlfriend, and I want to help her and hate to see her have to live with such an extreme individual.

Her problem-son is a definite impediment to our relationship, and I resent him for that. If I didn't love my girlfriend as much as I do, I probably would've left the relationship by now, but the two of us are really good together, and I want to figure out how to make it work.

I have read the article on blended families, and my girlfriend and I are currently reading His Need, Her Needs for Parents.

Thanks for any thoughts you might have on this situation.

Thanks for the vote of confidence.

I found some radio clips that address the discipline problems with step children - "Step parent should never discipline the step child because the child will view that step parent as an enemy."


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3351

and others here:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3363

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3330

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3171

Hi Melody, sorry, it's 63,000+ posts and counting, my mistake!

Thanks for the links, I will listen to them later today.

I woke up this morning with what I think is greater clarity on my situation. There was some confusion going on that I think I've unraveled, and I wanted to know what others think, either validating or offering alternative views.

• My girlfriend and I hit it off wonderfully in the beginning and quickly started talking about marriage.
• She made it clear at the time that she was not looking for a substitute for her two teenage sons' biological father.
• As our relationship deepened however, this changed, and she discovered that she did indeed want me to provide the male influence for her sons that they had missed growing up. (She has full custody.)
• One of her sons is extremely disrespectful towards his mother, which really bothers me. I've tried interacting with him when he mistreats her, but it is unpleasant for me.
• As I've tried to expand the scope of my relationship with my girlfriend to include her two sons, the negative feelings I experience from interacting with her one son have dampened the feelings I have for my girlfriend, and I perceived this as a loss of romantic love for her.
• Feeling this loss, but not understanding the connection to her son, I looked towards Marriage Builders for help in restoring romantic love.
• Following Dr. Harley's model, I started operating under the assumption that my girlfriend was not meeting some of my emotional needs. We filled out the Emotional Needs questionnaire, talked about the results, and it was during that time that I began wondering about the application of Marriage Builders principles in a dating relationship.

I was looking at Marriage Builders principles to restore romantic love without understanding the true cause of the loss of love. I think romantic feelings for my girlfriend are still there, but they are being overshadowed by attempts to get involved with her son. I'm also aware of the dismal divorce statistics for blended families, which is why I've hesitated to pursue marriage with my girlfriend. I really love her a lot, and we meet each other's emotional needs very well, but her son is an impediment to our relationship.

My guess is that Dr. Harley would recommend not marrying my girlfriend, at least not right now, and I would agree with him. In the meantime, I'm wondering about acting "as if" we were married. By that I mean, what would Dr. Harley advise if we really were married, and I had lost romantic love for my wife because one of her sons was coming between us. Being unmarried, can we take the position that "divorce is not an option" and apply Marriage Builders principles to solve the same kind of problem that can happen in marriage?

I asked Dr. Harley this very question and I hope he replies. If so, I'll post his reply here. In the meantime, I'm anxious to hear anything the wise sages on these forums might have to say. Have a great day everyone!

I'm off next week for 5 days at the beach and may not have computer access to reply to anything until next weekend.

Hi Melody, thank you for the links on step-parenting. It was sobering to listen to them. Gives me a glimpse of the difficulties involved in blended families.

I agree that stepchildren can be a complication to a second marriage, even though my wife was sweet enough to marry me and thus take on two teenagers. She's obviously an angel.

However, the stuff below is in a category of its own:


First, you obviously know that if you were to step into that family, you would be stepping into a project. The boy's language is not normal nor acceptable, even for a teenager. Given that you would not be the dad and will thus have limited disciplining rights, you would really be stepping into a minefield. I don't know your GF, but realize that no matter how much she may love you, she loves her son too (hopefully), so this may be a very very difficult situation.

The second part, your reaction, is quite disturbing. If you were as close to hitting this boy as you say you were, you need to ponder how you were pushed this far this easily. Hint, hitting a boy is never an option, and is not going to make love bank deposits with his mom. It may get you in trouble with the law though.

I don't know much more about your situations, but if it were me, I would step way back instead of moving forward. I just think that you are stepping into a minefield.

AGG