What puzzles me is how this boy managed to stay alive for 2 seconds after calling his own mother a "bit**?" I imagine I would have beat my son within an inch of his life if he ever behaved like such trash to his own mother. And he sure wouldn't live under my roof.

I agree, there is some serious dysfunction in the situation.
I always tended to run away from things like that, because I hate drama, but others seem drawn to it .

AGG

If "Family Commitment" is one of your top ENs .... this ain't never gonna work out as a happy marriage.


Me too.


AKA ~~~> pretending


You're not.


She's not your wife.


Non-married (AKA dating) couples have less motivation to POJA and a hell'a lot more motivation to "pretend" and to "sacrifice" to keep the peace.


100% a VERY BAD IDEA !!!!
This is how people make abusive and/or dangerous relationship mistakes and marry the wrong person/situation because they think they should ignore an obvious issue !!!!


My advice is to POJA all decisions. That is the only way this will work out.
ZERO sacrificing for the sake of "keeping the peace".
POJA solutions are pleasing to both of you, never making one of you unhappy/resentful, or keeping score.



Have fun at the beach.

When you get back to real life .... you may want to explain POJA to your GF and tell her that for the relationship to move forward, you insist you POJA decisions that effect both of you.

If you need to learn more about POJA ~~~> then, you have not done your pre-marriage homework~~~!!!!!

There is no reason you should not use MB methods to "shore up" a good, possibly great, dating relationship before marriage.

There is never room for "divorce is not an option" to any dating situation.

There is a huge difference between using MB methods pre-marriage and pretending you are married.

Here is a *** LINK *** to an awesome example of appropriate pre-marriage use of MB methods.

Thanks for the recent replies AGoodGuy, Melody, and Pepperband. Turns out I DO have wifi at the beach. I've been thinking a lot about this situation while I've had some down time this week. The links that Melody sent last weekend were good to listen to. I've heard about the high rate of divorce for blended families, and I'm pretty sure the couples going into those marriages felt things would be manageable; i.e., it probably wasn't until AFTER they married that troubles hit and subsequently caused them to divorce. To see a big problem already, before marriage, and then to get married anyways, seems like a recipe for failure. Or as AGoodGuy says, I'd be stepping into a minefield.

Interesting observation which I've broached with my girlfriend. Last weekend, I asked her about the possibility of putting him in a foster home or a halfway house, and she said no. She worries that if her son feels abandoned (he already feels somewhat abandoned by his father), he might consider suicide; and if that ever happened, she could never forgive herself. (He has made one phone call that I know of to a suicide hotline.) It's a tough situation. I think she sometimes doesn't stand up for herself and allows his behavior to continue; in other words, she enables him. Short of kicking him out, I don't know what she can do to get him to stop.

My current feeling is that I should not consider the idea of marriage with my girlfriend in the near future. I could not live in the same house with her son and tolerate his behavior towards her. I don't want to get into a situation involving violence, and the only alternative I can think of if we were to marry is if she found somewhere else for her son to live. But she's pretty clear that that is not an option.

Pepperband, I have a few follow-up questions to your posts.

When I asked the question about, supposing we were married what would Dr. Harley advise, I understand your point that we're not married and pretending that we are can get us into trouble. I'm wondering how Dr. Harley would advise a married couple who were in the same situation my girlfriend and I are in. I just want to see what he'd say. Then, if I think his solution is something that might work in my case, I'd like to try it. If it worked, great. If not, then that would be a very good reason to not get married. Do you think that's an ok approach? When I spoke about taking the position that divorce is not option, I didn't mean that ending our relationship is not an option. I meant, let's assume for the time being that we won't consider ending our relationship until we've tried everything we can think of. If nothing works, then we can stop assuming divorce is not option. Does that sound more reasonable? Or do you still think it's a bad idea.

I agree with you point about the only way this will work is POJA and zero sacrificing. I totally agree with that, and I think that's the right path for my girlfriend and I to follow. Thank you.

Yes, I do need to learn more about this. From what I can tell, it seems difficult when you first learn about it and try to apply it, but it gets easier once you get the hang of it. Sort of like learning to ride a bike.

In one of the radio clips that Melody posted, Dr. Harley talks about POJA, and until a couple can agree on how to discipline step-children, they do nothing. And what can happen, is that the kids run wild. In my case, one of the kids is already running wild. And I agree with you, we need to reach a mutually agreeable decision on what do about this wild child.

Thanks for the link. I've seen that thread before and have read the last few pages of it but not the whole thing. It's a lot of pages, but maybe I'll try to find the time to read it all. Thanks!

Finally, on a lighter side, is your user name short for Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band?

Yes, indeed. 1967 was a great year for music.

People who are "conflict avoiders" cannot POJA until they become more convicted that there is no POJA without RADICAL HONESTY.

The POJA negotiations begin with a question:

"How would you feel about me doing (whatever)?"

The response must be honest. Not superficially honest, but honest at a deeper level.

"I'm fine with that." Is not a good POJA when the actual truth is: "I'd prefer you did this instead."

Decisions must meet the criteria of both parties being enthusiastic about the decision.

Dr Harley has suggested a good place to practice is to grocery shop together and to POJA ever single item that goes into the cart. Sound silly, but it is an excellent non volatile way to practice. POJA every item in a way that BOTH OF YOU are enthusiastic about that particular purchase. You may not take turns being enthusiastic. EACH item must be an enthusiastic choice for you both.

Have fun shopping

Kl-
Right now you have a "renter-renter" relationship. Which is fine, because you are dating and this is still very much a trial relationship. Maybe a keeper, maybe not.

Have you read about BUYERS/RENTERS/FREELOADERS? It's the title of one of my favorite books by Dr Harley.

Here is a link to my thread where I discuss what I learned from that book.

LINK to MB thread on 101 forum

Eventually, you will want to develop this relationship into a BUYER-BUYER state.
How? POJA, my dear, POJA.

Why? Because the renter-renter agreement will, over time, create resentments and not a mutually enjoyable relationship.

The thread touches on why sacrifice as a tool for keeping the peace is really never going to get you to that buyer-buyer state you want.

Read that link and tell me if you have any questions.

Do you have any Dr Harley books? Which ones?

Thanks Pepperband, I have not read Buyers, Renter, and Freeloaders, but I've read web articles about the concept including your thread. Dr. Harley books I have are:

• His Needs, Her Needs
• His Needs, Her Needs for parents
• Love Busters
• Fall in Love, Stay in Love
• I Promise You

I have a question about POJA and Buyers vs. Renters that relates to my earlier question about using MB principles in a dating relationship.

In a marriage, when POJA is used to resolve a conflict, it seems that Dr. Harley's advice to a couple having trouble reaching an agreement is that they do nothing until they find a solution to their problem that is mutually satisfying. They may have to brainstorm a long time, take breaks when it seems as if no progress is being made, but they never consider ending their relationship just because they haven't reached an agreement yet. It is their buyer mentality that keeps them working on the problem until they find a solution.

In a dating relationship, if POJA is used to address a conflict, the renter mentality says that if the negotiations fail to find a solution, ending the relationship is an option. I wonder if the renter mentality creates an environment in which a couple may not find a solution to a difficult problem because they don't brainstorm long enough. In other words, if they adopted the buyer mentality, they just might find a solution that works.

My question about applying MB principles in a dating relationship "as if we were married" might better be stated: In a dating relationship, can MB principles be applied using the buyer mentality? Does that rephrasing change your answer?

I'm wondering if you have some additional insight regarding this comment about POJA:
I find myself in this situation a lot. I sometimes say "I'm fine with that," and I really am fine with it, and other times, I'm not fine with it, but it's easier to say that I'm fine with it rather than trying to figure exactly what I want. Is that laziness? Or perhaps I don't think the decision is very important; eg, what restaurant shall we eat at tonight? Maybe I feel that my girlfriend cares more about where we eat than I do, so I say I'm fine with that. It seems that there are a lot of situations like that where I feel that my girlfriend cares more about a decision than I do, so I go along with what she wants. And it's usually ok, because I really don't care as much as she does.

But there are other times when I know that I'm not fine with something, but I do it anyways because if I don't my girlfriend will be disappointed. I'm not very good at handling those situations. I don't like disappointing people, and my nature seems to be willing to give up my desires in order not to disappoint. As my therapist has told me, I need to work on being my own self-advocate. I understand the concept, but it's not easy for me to put into practice.

I remember the 2 year dating mark, it was like we were a couple of sick puppy teenagers. Granted, we were both childless and not divorced so we simply didn't have the same issues as you.

I see your situation in a very simple manner:
- You dated her originally in the expectation of having a girlfriend and potential future wife, who happened to have kids with their own father.
- She changed her expectations (or perhaps didn't realize her expectations) and now wants a father figure.
- That isn't what you wanted and those aren't the kind of kids you want to deal with.
- You falling out of love is a result of the relationship, in general, not being what you expected or wanted.

You sound like a good man. She sounds like a good woman. But she's just not the right woman for you. That's okay.

My very first boyfriend, once upon a time, I dated him for just over 2 years. It wasn't going to lead to marriage - we were both good people, just not right for each other. I can look back a decade later and say, "yeah... what a great guy! but wrong for me!". And we are now married to others and have great marriages. We would have missed that if we tried to make a marriage work that shouldn't have happened.

You understand why this is dangerous in the long term, right?

Your "nature" may be to allow your "Giver" to settle minor disputes. However, you do own a "Taker", and your Taker will eventually step up and try to protect your interests. You *think* that your Taker is a "bad guy", right? He's not a bad guy. Your Taker loves you. Protects you. Watches out for you. Your Taker is who began this thread complaining about the situation regarding your GF's poor parenting. Let's be honest, OK?

Your GF is a poor parent in some situations if she allows any of her children to be verbally abusive towards her. She is demonstrating to you in a rather dramatic way what goes amok when her "Giver" runs the show in that parent/child relationship. Her "Giver-gone-wild" example should offer you great insight to how YOU are going wrong in your approach to settling disputes with her.

Your GF might say something like this: "I do it anyways because if I don't my girlfriend SON will be disappointed. I'm not very good at handling those situations. I don't like disappointing people my SON, and my nature seems to be willing to give up my desires in order not to disappoint my SON."

It looks bad, doesn't it?
Sometimes it is easier to see the way a "Giver" can ruin things when it is another person doing the ruining.

If both you and your GF bring this bad habit to any future marriage, I guarantee there will be two "banks" involved. One will be the "love bank" ..... the other will be the "resentment bank". You can see it has started already, can't you?

Have you discussed MB with your GF?

Why not suggest she begin her own thread here, and we can "coach" her a little.

If she does not want to learn MB, and apply MB .... You can look forward to years of resentment deposits and love bank withdrawals.

I want you to succeed with eyes wide open.

PS

I want to compliment you, KL.

It's not every thread that begins by asking for MB-principled help.

The MB techniques CAN be applied to a dating relationship with wonderful results if both persons are using the same techniques !!!

In other words, you do NOT apply "Plan A" in any dating relationship. Disaster.

Is GF eager to learn about MB?
Edit to add: *note* I did not say "willing to learn", I specifically said "eager to learn" for a reason.

I think this is an excellent summary, alis. And I think that it is critical to understand that dating is intended to assess whether someone is right for you, NOT to make a commitment to not break up if things go south - the latter is reserved for marriage.

I see too many people go that route - decide that they don't want to be quitters and try to force fit a poor match in a dating relationship. I don't know where they get the "don't be a quitter" mindset, maybe from books or movies. But there is nothing wrong with being a quitter in a dating relationship, that is the whole point of it. The longer someone spends in a poorly matched dating relationship, the more difficult it becomes to cut the cord, but the reality is that it is still a dating relationship. When I hear someone say "we are dating but we are committed to this relationship", I see .

KL's situation sounds very difficult, and I don't see a good way to get around the issues his GF is having with her son. His idea of him and his GF being happy by having her son go away to some foster care shows me a lack of understanding of a parent/child bond - if someone I was dating even hinted at such a "solution", they'd be out of my life before they could finish the sentence.

I dunno KL, you seem like a very thoughtful and nice guy, but between the near smacking of her son and this suggestion, I wonder if you should do some reading on what step-parenting is all about - it is probably as hard as if not harder than marriage.

I don't mean to sound like a know-it-all, it just seems that you are trying to force fit a square peg into a round hole.

AGG

Thanks everyone for the recent replies.

Hi alis, I think it's not so much that I fell out of love because she's not the right woman for me, it's more that when I first started dating her, I didn't think of her as a package (which I should have), or maybe I just figured the package would work out. Now that I'm coming to grips with the idea of her as a package, that's the part that's not what I expected or wanted. As I've learned more and more of the downsides of her package, in particular her troubled son, I'm torn between wanting to help her because I lover her vs. being scared by the divorce statistics of blended families coupled with the fact that her son is very difficult. If I didn't love her as much as I do, I probably would've left by now, and in fact, many times, in the face of difficulties with her son, she asks me "why do you stay?" and I say it's because I love her. I don't want to leave her. I think the two of us have the ingredients for a successful relationship, but maybe the timing is off.

Yes, I do understand. For me, correcting this behavior is one of those things that's easier said than done. And yes, you're right, my Taker started this thread, good point.

Just so you know, she's not always tolerant of abuse. In fact, most times she's very firm with her son. She's been in his face before, pushing him up against a wall, and scaring him with a pitbull-like Taker mentality. She can be very tough. But sometimes, he just wears her down, and she caves in because she doesn't have the energy to fight him. Single mom, full-time job, two teenage sons, homeowner responsibilities, she sometimes gets worn out trying to manage it all.

Yes, but I haven't thought of it in terms of a resentment bank before. I suppose you could, but it seems like deposits in the resentment bank are the same as withdrawals from the love bank.

Yes, we've read several of Dr. Harley's articles together, and I've sent her the radio links that Melody posted earlier. We've also filled out the Emotional Needs questionnaire, but haven't gone over it yet in depth with each other. I gave her a couple of Dr. Harley's books for her birthday, and we've talked about some of the concepts, flipping through the pages, but we haven't started reading from page 1 yet. I'd like to, but I think we should figure out this issue with her son before proceeding with relationship work. I think POJA and radical honesty are good tools to use however.

I'll ask her about starting her own thread. It'd be interesting to see that happen.

Regarding your post describing the Giver and Taker, a thought occurred to me today concerning POJA. I wonder if a solution to the problem of my Giver overruling my Taker too often is to POJA between them. I.e, recognize that there is an underlying conflict between my Giver and Taker and apply POJA to resolve the conflict. That would involve some Radical Honesty with myself to query what both my Giver and Taker want in a particular situation, but if I could reach enthusiastic agreement between both of them, that might give me the balance I need.

I'm sure she's willing, but not sure if she's eager. To be honest, we've spent enough time analyzing our situation, that both of us are a little weary from it all and wonder if we should chill out for a while. [Her son is away at camp for a month, and we thought it would be a great opportunity to enjoy each others' company without the usual tension.]

I sort of see your point. In my case, I'm committed to working on our relationship because I see a lot of potential in it.

Actually, the idea of a foster home was not my own. In one of the radio links Melody posted earlier in this thread, Dr. Harley said that he has recommended sending a step-child to a foster home if they are out-of-control in a blended family situation.

I would love to read about step-parenting. Can you recommend anything? Anything I can learn about this would be helpful. Thanks.

I too, sometimes wonder about that.

I hear you, but my point is that marriage is usually much harder than dating - you wiull be stuck with each other 24/7 (figuratively), and there is no escape assuming you don't believe in divorce. So if things are troubling during dating, I don't see them getting better after marriage. I think that marriage just amplifies your dating relationship - what's good becomes great, what's bad becomes awful.


You know, there are many types of books on that, and I hesistate to recommend one because I haven't read many. Some of the ones I browsed through were ones that my wife did not like (she is the step parent in our marriage), while others she did. I think it's a matter of finding one that speaks to you and your style of parenting.

AGG

POJA always starts with honesty. Without honesty, there is no POJA. You are correct there, for certain. And, you are also correct that honesty begins with yourself.

You do not allow either your Giver or your Taker to make POJA decisions.
That over complicates this.

Just ask yourself .... "Am I really enthusiastic about this?"

Definition of enthusiastic:
having or showing intense and eager enjoyment, interest, or approval : the promoter was enthusiastic about the concert venue.

Trying to balance your Giver/Taker until you get some sort of "answer" will result in some non-enthusiastic negotiated agreements. Plus, I don't know how the hell you do that in real life.

Remember, the purpose of POJA is to please both you and your partner, not please both your Giver/Taker.

I hope this helps. Try not to over think "enthusiastic agreement", OK?
Go practice in the grocery market.