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I have been married for 4 years and am still in my 20's, with no children.
Since my husband and I have been married, we experience consistent conflict. Whether it's because I lost weight, because he purchased something we agreed to note purchase, disagreements on politics, religion, whatever-- we've argued and yelled about it. I have been to 5-- yes, FIVE-- marriage counselors (alone) in order to address the issues I've been causing and to fix whatever it is that I am doing in order to alleviate the issues. It helped some, and didn't help some. I've since stopped going because I see no point in going anymore since my husband won't come with, nor will I force him.
I was thinking about these things over the last week and realized that perhaps my husband has extreme dissatisfaction with his life, and he is taking it out on me. In the end, no amount of logic or evidence can convince my husband that I can't change the way things are nor can I fix everything, but because I have been one of the few stable things in his life, it means I am here. Since I'm here, it's easy to take things out on me.
When we first married, he soon became unemployed after and I think it's still affecting him, even years later. He's been employed for years now, but it doesn't mean the issue went away. I know deep down he unfairly compares himself to another family member who his parents deem more "successful" because he makes a lot more money and can afford many things that we can't. I get that family members will sometimes compete, but the thing is this family member doesn't want to compete nor has that ever been the intent. But my husband compares himself, and it leads to his dissatisfaction.
My husband has always wanted to be self-employed but it hasn't happened yet because of lack of funds, unexpected life changes, or something else that comes up. Recently my husband was taking a class to get his series 5 and failed one of the exams required to get his licensed renewed. Since then, I have not heard the end of it. My husband does blame me at times, but I've learned to not take it personally.
What is the point of my rambling? Well...I wish I could say this revelation has given me the key to marital bliss, but it hasn't. One of the things I've learned as a wife is it's very hard to sit by and watch your husband struggle and be unhappy with life, all while knowing if I intervened or tried to fix things, it would just offend or emasculate him. It's also very hard to be in this situation because I have no idea what my job is, other than to be here. Do I sit idly by for the rest of my life and watch this, or do I take action eventually? I am also a religious person where I don't believe in divorce unless it's an extreme circumstance (one of the previous therapists wanted me to consider it, that's why I moved on), and I also believe in marital hierarchy.
I understand that I can't make someone feel something they don't feel, and I can't make anyone change their perspective on life. But what do you do when you realize it's exactly this problem contributing a large dose to martial discord? I have been stuck for a couple years now.
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Welcome to MB. Please listen to these radio clips of the Harleys talking to a couple with similar issues. Tell us what you think. Radio clip on POJA Segment #2 Segment #3 Segment #4
FWW/BW (me) WH 2nd M for both Blended Family with 7 kids between us Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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At MB we believe that two people can work together to build a romantic, loving relationship in spite of all sorts of life stresses.
Are you interested in something like that? If so, you've run into a forum of like-minded people.
How much of this site are you familiar with? Have you read the basic concepts? Do you know about "Lovebusters"?
I think as you go along you'll find MB and Dr. Harley's ideas much different from the "marriage" counselling you have experienced.
~optimism
Me: 43 y.o. BFWH, D-day 11/11/09 (NC since 9/01) Divorce from WW final 9/16/10. Current Status: MB-based Marriage to Nature Girl 12/8/12 (first date on 12/11/10) Mine: S(16), D(11) NatureGirls: S(23), D(21) Another EA Story
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Amazing how marriage counselors recommend divorce for this, which can be fixed. Married 4 years and in your 20's, it's like they want you to toss marriage away without even learning how to deal with such hurdles.
It does sound as if your husband may have some depression, that isn't uncommon for men particularly after job loss. Since you said you are religious and believe in marital hierarchy, I assume he is similar and probably feels like a provider-failure.
Have you read the basic concepts here?
It sounds as if you guys are not following some of the core MB concepts - POJA, lovebusters, etc. That's pretty typical, and can be resolved. Your husbands lovebusters are killing your marriage.
Last edited by alis; 07/12/12 06:58 AM.
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FWW/BW (me) WH 2nd M for both Blended Family with 7 kids between us Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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Marriage counselors don't have the slightest idea how to save a marriage so I am not too surprised to hear this. All couples have conflicts. The difference between those who stay married and those who don't is becoming skilled at resolving conflicts. You can learn to do that if you use the policy of joint agreement. The first thing you should do is stop fighting. Fighting is very damaging to your marriage. The book that you need is Lovebusters. It will help you tremendously by showing you how to stop fighting and resolve your conflicts. It really does work, whereas, counseling rarely works. Here are some excerpts from Dr Harley: How to Overcome Love Busters Whenever you are inconsiderate of each other's feelings you destroy the love that you have for each other. The most common ways that you are likely to hurt each other with your thoughtlessness fall into five categories: Selfish Demands, Disrespectful Judgments, Angry Outbursts, Annoying Behavior and Dishonesty
The first three of these Love Busters are instinctive, yet thoughtless, ways to try to get what you want from each other. When a request doesn't work, a spouse will often revert to a demand ("I don't care how you feel -- do it or else!"). If that doesn't get the job done, a spouse will try disrespectful judgments ("If you had any sense, and were not so lazy and selfish, you would do it"). And then, when all of that fails, an angry outburst often represents the last ditch effort ("I'll see to it that you regret not having done it").
These three Love Busters fail to get what you need in your marriage -- and when you use them, you destroy the love your spouse has for you. All of these instincts, and the habits they help create, cause your spouse to be unhappy, and that causes massive Love Bank withdrawals.
Demands and Control
Spouses who use demands and control to try to get their way not only fail, but also create defenses that make further negotiations almost impossible. They also cause spouses to fall out of love with each other. I address this subject in What to Do with a Controlling Husband. The letters of this column make it easy to see the folly of negotiations without the Policy of Joint Agreement. Another closely related column, Resentment Over Issues of Control, Dependency and Identity, also stresses the importance of avoiding demands as a way to solve problems.
Disrespect
Disrespect is another Love Buster, and it also prevents successful negotiation. To illustrate how important respect is in negotiation, I posted two Q&A columns on the subject of conflicts about beliefs. If your spouse believes something different than you, can you, or should you, try to change those beliefs? The columns on that subject are, "You Believe What?" How to Resolve Conflicts of Faith (Part 1) and "You Believe What?" How to Resolve Conflicts of Faith (Part 2).
Abuse, Anger and Domestic Violence
Can you negotiate with a angry or violent spouse? Impossible! So I have posted two Q&A columns that stress the importance of overcoming anger in marriage, Angry Outbursts and Domestic Violence. In these columns, I not only explain why anger prevents any hope for negotiated agreements, but I also show how it is a Love Buster -- it prevents a husband and wife from loving each other.
Abusive behavior usually begins when a couple tries to resolve a conflict the wrong way. Instead of finding a solution that meets the conditions of the Policy of Joint Agreement (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse), an effort is made by one spouse to force a solution on the other. Resistance to the proposal is matched by increasing force until the spouse browbeats the other into submission. Every fight is an example of abuse because it uses the tactic of emotional or physical force to resolve a conflict instead of respect and thoughtfulness.
In "How to Overcome an Abusive Marriage" I post six letters and my answers to them which makes it my longest column. The reason I feel obligated to include so many letters is that each one addresses an important aspect of abuse that I want to discuss.
The first letter is from an abused wife who has not yet decided to separate from her husband to protect herself from his abuse. The second letter is from a husband whose wife has escaped to a shelter to avoid his abuse. He wants to know how to win her back. The third letter is from a wife who has run her husband out of the house with her abusive behavior. She wants to know how to get him to return to her. The fourth letter is is from a man who thinks my definition of abuse is too broad. It gives me an opportunity to explain the difference between abuse as an act of violence and abuse as a process. The fifth letter is about abuse and alcohol -- a dangerous and sometimes deadly mixture. Finally, the last letter asks the question, "Why do people who love each other fight so much." It's a good question, and I have a good answer.
Of course, demands, disrespect and anger don't really get the job done. You generally don't do things for your spouse because of these Love Busters -- in fact, you probably do the opposite of what your spouse wants if he or she is demanding, disrespectful or angry. When you do what your spouse needs and wants, you do it out of care and consideration. But if your spouse is demanding, disrespectful and angry, you tend to be less caring and considerate, leading you to do less for your spouse. I want you to have what you need in your marriage, but demands, disrespect and anger will not get it for you. They will prevent you from having what you want if you revert to these destructive instincts. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5505_qa.html
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Hi, Lilac, welcome to Marriage Builders. Have you read the Basic Concepts here, about the Love Bank? As you can see, the blaming (disrespect) and the arguing (angry outbursts) are Love Busters, they make withdrawals from your account in each other's love bank. The result is you go from feeling in love with each other, to liking each other, to barely being able to stand each other, and the eventual result will be that you will hate and despise one another and actively wish ill fate on one another. My wife and I went to three marriage counselors, too, and it's true they had no clue what they were doing. They were not even trying to restore romantic love in our marriage. If they were, they would have been teaching us how to handle our conflicts in a way that preserves and builds romantic love, rather than destroying it. You do need the book Love Busters, and being religious, I would also recommend for you Dr. Harley's book Draw Close, a devotional for couples that teaches through his program from a spiritual perspective. Personally, I've got to say that learning how to have a good marriage through providing actual care for my wife has transformed my faith immensely in ways I never could have predicted. I'm not sure what religion you practice, but here is a quote from one of my faith's spiritual texts: "Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth." http://bible.cc/1_john/3-18.htmI would have to say that before Marriage Builders, even in counseling, the love (caring love) that I was giving to my wife was mostly merely talk. Thanks to what I've learned here, I've learned that I have to give my wife caring love through actual deeds. The result is that when I am doing this effectively, she feels romantic love.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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In order to recover your marriage to a healthy state, we need to get your husband on board. That means we need to figure out what the benefit is to him to participating in Marriage Builders. He's going to be reluctant because he's been to all these marriage counselors, it was extremely unpleasant for him, and it didn't help, it only made things worse! My wife felt exactly the same way after the THREE counselors we went to. I'm sorry to say it was a waste of time and money, and it damaged our marriage. Here is the difference between Marriage Builders and regular marriage counseling: How Dr. Harley Learned to Save Marriages: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3100_how.htmlRomantic Love: Is It a Realistic Goal For Marriage Therapy: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8118_real.htmlWhat Is Marriage Coaching: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8116_coach.htmlThe Coach: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8505_fft.htmlHow To Create Your Own Plan to Resolve Conflicts and Restore Love to Your Marriage: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8114_plan.htmlHow Dr. Harley counseled couples in his practice: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7100_counselor.html
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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I see no point in going anymore since my husband won't come with, nor will I force him. Your husband will have to get onboard or you will be in a miserable marriage. What are his specific reasons for not wanting to get marital help? Would he be anti-MB as a form of help? I understand that you two argue but have you told him that you are falling our of love with him. Since you said you would only consider divorce in "extreme" circumstances, what do you consider extreme? I know deep down he unfairly compares himself to another family member who his parents deem more "successful" because he makes a lot more money and can afford many things that we can't...my husband compares himself, and it leads to his dissatisfaction. I feel for ya.
BW - me exWH - serial cheater 2 awesome kids Divorced 12/2011
Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.
We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot. --------Eleanor Roosevelt
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I read the articles and I knew about the concepts before because I took a relationships class in college which covered a lot of them  I have to say, I am happy with the feedback I have received thus far, as on other boards, members are quick to make judgments about how I'm not being a submissive wife, or how I just need to "ditch 'em." I was once told, and I paraphrase, if I were you I would have grown a spine much sooner and not put up with that crap. Niiiiice. My issue here is in the past, whenever *I'm* the person to initiate going to marriage counseling, attending classes, going over concepts, my husband has strong disdain for it and won't even consider it. I can't even get him to read my MBTI, whereas he'll read everything about himself! In dealing with his anger, I've been told "that's just the way it is" and I don't know what else to do. A typical line he usually uses is "Well, I'll change what I do if I see proof that you're making changes first, and then I'll consider." Or he says "I change all the time, yet you never acknowledge that you're doing the same." In the past these were biting and fighting words, but now I've learned not to respond. Half the time I think I am a robot when I'm at home, but when I have to choose between being a robot or being in high turmoil, robot it is. I think my husband might be experiencing some symptoms of depression, but can it really last this long after the fact? He's been employed and doesn't have too many worries about job security anymore. I never know what to do with that because every time I think I am being helpful, he sees it as me being controlling, disrespecting him, or being a hypocrite. What worries me more is we want to start trying for children soon but the thought of bringing an innocent baby into this foray makes me hesitant. Yet I could sit around my entire life waiting for him to change and I can't bank on that.
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FWW/BW (me) WH 2nd M for both Blended Family with 7 kids between us Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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I listened to the "What to do to fall back in love" clip and had to think about what I listened to.
There's a few issues that I know I'd encounter because I've encountered them before. I understand that while I may not always *feel* in love, I should still do things for my husband because I'm his wife, and that's what I should do. In the end, my personal feelings don't matter in the grand scheme of things. Problem is, when I've tried this in the past, my husband finds a way to make me feel guilty or gets mad at me because I'm "showing him up." In the past when counseling was helping, one of the things the counselor told me to do was share the progress with my husband in various ways. For instance, if I went out with friends and enjoyed myself, I should figure out a way to bring that happiness back into my marriage. That's what I did, and for some reason my husband didn't like it. He saw it as threatening because I was out having fun, and while I wanted us to have fun, too, it wasn't happening.
In the clip, they say arguing doesn't help but what do you do when your spouse thinks arguing is a past time? We can hardly have a conversation go too deep without an argument and then neither one of us wants to be around each other. We tend to argue because we don't always agree, and I know the concept of agreement is important. However, my husband doesn't always care if I agree with him and I don't think we'll always agree. I think agreeing most of the time isn't in line with a D/S relationship, especially within the Christian context of marriage, so I'm not sure what to do with that one.
There are other issues, but I wanted to address these first. I hope I don't sound combative because I really want these things to work.
Last edited by Lilac_Whispers; 07/17/12 11:47 PM.
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Dr. Harley and his wife Joyce have many conflicts every day. A conflict simply means they disagree about something. Yet they say they never argue.
An argument starts when one person attempts to force one's viewpoint on another. Arguments often begin with a selfish demand and escalate into disrespectful judgments then into angry outbursts.
The way to avoid an argument is to state your opinion respectfully and always respond respectfully.
You're right; it's not realistic to expect to agree with each other all the time. The Policy of Joint Agreement and Radical Honesty are essential in a good marriage.
Here are a couple of examples from threads here:
One couple disagrees about where to eat. The husband wants one kind of restaurant; the wife wants another. The goal is to reach enthusiastic agreement. They go to a restaurant that both of them like, which ends up being neither of the restaurants they originally wanted.
Another couple watches a show where contestants are judged. The H has his opinion, while the W's is completely different. If I remember correctly, this couple was advised to not even watch that show any longer but rather to select a different show they could be mutually enthusiastic about. The other solution would be to each simply state what they like about their selection and not force the other to agree.
If the other person is disrespectful, then, again respectfully, say that the conversation is not going well and step away for the time being.
We thought it was absolutely revolutionary for the Harleys to say that the objective during a conflict is NOT to resolve the conflict but rather it's to stay in love.
Your personal feelings DO matter! When we are in love, we want to meet each other's needs and we can do it effortlessly. Arguing and fighting withdraw massive amounts of love units and, for that reason, need to be completely avoided in a marriage relationship.
Do you have the books HNHN and LB, as well as Five Steps to Romantic Love? They are very insightful books; we think they are the best ever written on how to have a great marriage.
All of this does take practice; it's not easy to break old habits and build new ones, but it's worth every effort. We used the MB Online Seminar and found it to be the most valuable thing we ever did for our marriage.
MB radio is also a great ongoing education on the principles and how they apply to our daily lives.
You CAN live your life without arguments.
Married 1980 DDay Nov 2010
Recovered thanks to Marriage Builders
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Love reading her posts! Great post, longwayfromhome.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Love reading her posts! Great post, longwayfromhome. Ditto!
FWW/BW (me) WH 2nd M for both Blended Family with 7 kids between us Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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Thanks to both of you. I appreciate it very much.
We LOVE Marriage Builders. It's revolutionary in one aspect. Yet, in another aspect, it says exactly what makes sense when one thinks about it.
Married 1980 DDay Nov 2010
Recovered thanks to Marriage Builders
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Thanks to both of you. I appreciate it very much.
We LOVE Marriage Builders. It's revolutionary in one aspect. Yet, in another aspect, it says exactly what makes sense when one thinks about it. Well it shows. Thanks for your help. 
FWW/BW (me) WH 2nd M for both Blended Family with 7 kids between us Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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We LOVE Marriage Builders. It's revolutionary in one aspect. Yet, in another aspect, it says exactly what makes sense when one thinks about it. It has made me aware how fuzzy headed our culture is when it comes to marriage. Our standard advice for marriage problems never made sense. But Dr Harley's program makes perfect sense once you really understand it.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I have to say, the things mentioned in this thread is SO HELPFUL!!!! I wish I could go around posting it everywhere because this needs to be known. Divorce isnt always the answer and I love that you guys show us how to make it work!! Gosh we need all the help we can get. Thank you for your replies
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