Don't get on the defensive when she's doing this. Turn it around and ask "Why does it bother you when I'm upset?" What you want to hear is that she has some empathy and can understand, process and explain what you're feeling...if that makes any sense.

This isn't marriage at all costs.


To start? By putting spyware on her phone.


And you cannot do much for her, but you can do something to reassure yourself by, um, putting spyware on her phone!!!

This isn't a means for busting her, it's a means for you to know what the hell is going on.


1. Keep up the UA time. I know how it is on the SF front. It's awkward for a bit, kind of like two stupid teenagers that don't know sh*t from shinola about what they're doing.

2. Put spyware on that cell to give yourself some assurance.

EDIT:

It doesn't necessarily sound like she's in full blown contact with this guy, but something about the comments about taking the cell to the bedroom are a bit off. It's hard to explain, but it's just off and that's why I'm repeatedly posting that you need something on that phone so that you can make that tentative step forward and start to rebuild everything.

Here's hoping I'm wrong about contact, but I really think you need some verification for your own sanity.

I totally agree with Northwood in that you need a keylogger and spyware. You were told this a month ago and haven't done it? You need to verify no contact. If she is still wayward (and she sounds like she is with her continued IB) it will be difficult to get her on board with the MB concepts.

keep us updated

Trust what?


Trust her to not resume her affair? Trust her to never have another affair?

I'll answer that for you; you DON'T let go, and you NEVER AGAIN trust her to not have an affair, because you should have never trusted that to begin with. We are all wired for affairs.

I said it once today on another poster's thread, I'll say it here again; I KNOW, for a fact that given the right circumstances, I would have an affair. I've known it my entire marriage, even though I have never had an affair. How that has changed now, is I also provide accountability to my wife, and she provides accountability to me. We never spend nights apart, and we share all of our recreational time together.


You must change your lifestyle so that there are no opportunities to have an affair.


It's not TRUST your marriage needs, it's PROTECTION.

SS1, I know you're out there...how are things going for you?

You are correct RQ, I have been around but I�ve been lurking. So where am I at with my WW? Good question! First off I will say that she wants nothing to do with MB however she is continuing with IC and I am welcome to attend her IC whenever a feel that I want to. I have also snooped a lot in the last month and her actions and transparency with her phone and whereabouts leave me to believe that she has been in no contact for the past 87 days. Can I guarantee it? No I cannot but I do believe it to be true.

We have been trying to find a new normal with which to build on and my W does seem committed to trying (wants to give it a year to see if she can find romantic feelings for me). We don�t talk about our relationship very often however we did talk on Friday night just to see where we are at.

Wife:
� Agrees that best outcome is us in a loving relationship
� Feels as though our relationship is forced at times
� Always enjoys spending time with me
� Feels as if we are friends with benefits as we are intimate (not as much as would like) however it is more sexual than loving (no kissing)
� Very little if any intimacy is initiated by my wife (outside of sex)
� Says her feeling for me haven�t changed at all as she still feels no romantic connection

Me:
� I feel as if my WW feels guilty but not remorseful and while I feel like it would really help me If she would show remorse I wonder if I can heal without it because I�m not sure I will ever receive it
� Feeling sad and angry at times. Angry as in the why did this have to happen to me and sad in that I want and deserve to be loved and my W just isn�t there for me in that way.

I know that if both of us would follow the MB plan all of these things could be worked out but my W is in the I need to feel it before I can take action camp.

On a positive note, we do spend 10-15 hours of UA time a week (I know it should be more but it�s a lot more than we have in the past) and we have started playing tennis together again which we both find enjoyable. Also, while it was me that had always initiated the UA time my W has started to plan UA time as well, which I find encouraging. I could go on and on however I will wrap this up by saying that the part I struggle most with is her viewing me as friend. It gets hard to reach out in an intimate manner over and over again and receive nothing back. If I hold her hand, or put my hand on her leg when driving, go to kiss her goodbye in the morning (9 out of 10 times I get her cheek instead of her lips) she will let me but I can tell she is not into it. I don�t want to stop trying as I feel that that will only reinforce her view of us as just friends but it�s hard at times because I can feel that she is not into it.

We are going to Vegas for 3 days (we leave next Saturday) and we are both looking forward to that. No kids, lots of UA! So I am still in plan A, just can�t seem to get her to come around�

Have you read "His Needs, Her Needs" yet? Can you get her to at least fill out the EN questionarre? You need to work on making deposits into her Love Bank whether she is receptive to them or not. It would help if you found out what her top 5 emotional needs are so you can work on meeting them. For example, if intimate conversation is one of her top EN's and instead you are focusing on something else that isn't, then there is not a vary large LB deposit. KWIM?

Dr. Harley says that most BH can stay in Plan A from 6 months to 2 years. Its up to you if you can handle that.

Have a great time and Vegas and making those LB deposits!

Luckily for me (I guess) my wife A ran its course well before she got caught really had no withdrawal. I would say it was more like relief that it was over.

Im not an expert on this stuff but I have my opinions. In not sure how long you have to live with your wife as your buddy who gives you sex once in a while and then gets to decide if she wants you forever or not. Withdrawal to me says that there are some lingering thoughts, feelings, and otherwise emotional ties to something that nearly destroyed her family.

Its like she's fiddling around with a loaded gun while you and your children are in the room. If shes want to make a mistake and shoot herself, then so be it. But, you and the kids dont have to be innocent victims.

One year to figure out if she wants you or to ruin your family? Thats a long time to be living such an existence.

Hey SS1,

I'd say your location here seems reasonable but I have a few questions:

1. To verify contact, do you have a keylogger on the computer? Spyware on the cell?

2. Does she still disappear with the cell phone?

3. Are you cleaning up your side of the street? No love busters? Talk to her about that, mentally filtering her responses with the affair-filter as some may be skewed to justify her actions.

4. Are you meeting her top ENs? Again, she may not be really open to discussing it with you, but you can probably take some good guesses as to what works and what doesn't work.

I'd really like to see you with spyware, SS1. It kind of determines the answer that you'll get from folks here as you won't get as much mileage with #3 and #4 if there's even a smidge of contact.

That is bunk, that's for sure.

And I still suspect some type of contact here. I would put money on it. She sounds EXACTLY like my wife did in 2010.

Sooner or later, you'll run out of gas if she keeps driving this bus.

Just got done reading this thread and it sounds like a carbon copy of my wife and me as well with the BIG deviation being that your wife doesn't treat you like you have leprosy.

I would definitely be doing some snooping to determine if there is still contact with OM here.

Hi All,

Just wanted to drop in and provide a quick update. We had a great time in Vegas and I feel that my WW is actually starting to care about me again (at times). We were intimate twice and she reached out to hold my hand a couple of times and spontaneously kissed me once. It's funny (not really) how things I would have taken for granted 6 months ago now have so much meaning. Also, I do believe that she is follow the advice of IC in that she is trying to force her actions as feeling follow actions so I�m not sure if all of her actions are genuine (maybe it�s my lack of trust).

I think that the big issue now for me is her lack of remorse and the just compensation that I need in order to restore my M to a loving romantic relationship as I continue to struggle with anger and resentment. It's hard to meet EN's when one is feeling this way.

I also know that she doesn�t want things to feel forced (which it still does at times) and I wonder whether my WW is settling or simply sticking around for the kids or financial reasons. This causes me to hold back which perpetuates the �it feels forced� feelings. It sucks to feel that way but how and when do you get over it? I thought I read that it is not uncommon for FWW�s to show no remorse. I�m really struggling with this even though my wife seems to at least be trying to move forward and reconnect.

This is sooo hard�.

Have you read SAA? John and Sue? She never apologized. They are still happily M today.

So yes, WW's do not always show remorse.

SS1, glad to hear that things are still status quo. I'm sure you'll know in your heart when that isn't enough.

Good luck

~RQ

SS1: Remorse and Just Compensation are two separate things.

Remorse in a male

Remorse varies, depending on if we're discussing an unfaithful wife or unfaithful husband. This really ties into a core concept of the program, as discussed in "His Needs, Her Needs": men and women have very different brains. Physically, topologically, male and female brains function in surprisingly different ways.

The basic difference here is that males are very capable of carrying on multiple romantic relationships simultaneously. Dr. Harley's described this as men having "rooms" in their mind: a room where work occurs, a room for a spouse, a room for children, a room for each lover, etc. I personally suspect we men do this well because although we have more neurons than women, we have vastly fewer connections between those neurons. We don't make associations as easily as women -- we are particularly weak at associating intuition and emotion (right brain) with our analytical and logical faculties due to a much smaller Corpus Calossum (sp?) between the two halves -- because we lack the wiring to do so as effectively as they do.

Because of this ease with carrying on multiple relationships, Dr. Harley usually insists that a man who has cheated must return "hat in hand" to his spouse, extremely remorseful and obviously contrite before the wife should be willing to engage in recovery. The bar is set high because it is so trivial for most men to carry on multiple romantic relationships with -- compared to women -- very little guilt. We're simply wired that way.

To sum up: an unfaithful husband typically must come back to the relationship extremely remorseful before recovery can occur. Otherwise, it is far too easy for them to "have their cake and eat it too", compartmentalizing continued abuse of their spouse with ongoing infidelity.

Remorse in a female

Women, on the other hand, typically find simultaneous multiple romantic relationships repugnant. There are exceptions, of course, but in MarriageBuilders we're playing the odds all the time, aiming to be part of the 20% of humanity which have "happy marriages" out there. Their brains are wired differently than a man's. They easily draw conclusions using their analytical faculties based on their emotions, and easily feel emotions based on something they have reasoned through. They can empathize more easily with their spouse, and due to their difficulty "compartmentalizing" their lives, will feel remorse simultaneously with pleasure during an affair.

Talk about conflicting emotions! Wow. Makes me glad I'm not a woman; I'd go NUTS trying to sort through experiencing more than one strong emotion at a time.

There's one more factor in a woman's brain: because she so easily draws conclusions based on her emotions, she recognizes the association between her husband's actions and how she feels about him. So if she's fallen out of love with him, her brain will intuitively recognize that it's his fault she's not in love with him anymore.

This bit is important. When a man has an affair, he typically won't blame his wife (much) for it. He may complain to his affair partner about a lack of sex or recreational companionship, but he won't usually believe it's his wife's fault for what he's doing.

When women have affairs, they overwhelmingly blame their husbands for the affair. Dr. Harley has statistics somewhere on the site about this specific "men blame themselves for their own affairs; women blame their husbands" statistic; I lack the time to find the citation right now. I hope I've explained above one potential rationale for why that is.

So at the start of a non-false recovery, you can usually count on a cheating husband to be very remorseful, but a cheating wife, not so much. This isn't 100% guaranteed. I've been corrected by a number of unfaithful wives on the board that they were EXTREMELY remorseful at the start of recovery. But in most cases, when you start recovery with an unfaithful wife, she's going to think the affair was her husband's fault.

Over time, this may change. But don't count on it. If you demand remorse, you are probably demanding divorce. And when many unfaithful wives do express remorse -- my wife falls into this category -- they express remorse for the consequences of their actions. Not the actions themselves. The actions, they believe, are usually justified or were innocent of ill intent. The consequences, however -- a broken-hearted spouse, despairing children, ruined friendships due to exposure, etc. -- cause deep remorse.

So if you're male, I strongly encourage you: do not go chasing down the path of demanding remorse and apology. Women are proud creatures, and you're very unlikely to get a heartfelt apology unless she decides it's time. Over time, of course, this changes. But by that she is so in love with you again that she would gladly give you the abject apology you want? You won't want it anymore.

Just Compensation

Just Compensation, on the other hand, is your right to demand. I cannot improve on Dr. Harley's explanation of the topic here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html


This is very, very typical at the start of recovery. She's not in love with you; she's in Conflict, if she's engaging at all. Your job is to keep meeting her needs, do not engage in any behavior that makes her miserable, and turn those actions that feel "forced" right now into habits that feel natural and nice!


Every betrayed husband feels this way at the start. Unfortunately, voicing this question to your spouse is a Disrespectful Judgment -- telling her what she's thinking -- so you must refrain. Right here is the best place to express such worries.

Watch her actions. Falling in love is a very sudden thing. You keep making deposits with no tangible result until suddenly she crosses the Romantic Love Threshold and BOOM! You're in love again. She might wake up the next morning and smell your bad breath or watch you engage in an Annoying Habit and be back out of love again because her Love Bank balance fell below the threshold. Alcohol also reduces the "balance" required for romantic love. This is just how it goes in Recovery, and that's why we call it a "roller-coaster ride".


See the remorse in her actions. If she's spending 15+ hours a week giving you her undivided attention, protecting you from her worst instincts, meeting your intimate emotional needs, and being radically honest with you? THAT is my redefinition of remorse to something we can live with.



Buck up, man. From this point on, it's a game to see who can score the most points in the Love Bank. You just can't see the score, and as long as the score stays high enough, you both win.

Thank you Doormat, that is a really useful post about remorse. I've seen zero remorse so far from my FWW and piles of blame. In fact she's still "thankful" for her experience with the POSOM.

@Driven2: It may be temporary, driven by your spouse still being "in the fog". Very common, particularly if either of you brings up the affair after all the facts are known.

Keep making UA time in at least the minimums recommended, find lots of time to spend together meeting intimate emotional needs, etc. If by 7/18/2014 your marriage isn't terrific, plan for a separation followed by divorce unless you both can come to an agreement to make the marriage better than it ever was.

You might want to make your own thread -- or point me to it -- because I'm really interested in what happened between 3/18/2011 and 7/18/12, and the duration of the affair before 3/18/2011. There might be so much to resent which occurred in that time that you're going to have a really hard time overcoming the resentment.

The interesting thing about being "together", too, is that usually implies "living together". The basic problem with living together before marriage is that you tend to enter the marriage with a "Renter" mindset. If you don't know what that is, pick up a copy of Dr. Harley's "Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders" book. Even though you've been married 18 years, it may be that you've simply done so with a renter's agreement the whole time, and your wife is having trouble coping with becoming a buyer. The Policy of Joint Agreement -- never do ANYTHING without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse -- is the lynchpin of the Buyer's agreement. If either of you are struggling with living by that idea, that will tend to continue to engender resentment as well.

Wow....Doormat thank you for your post. It really hit home.

@SS1: Your story hit home for me. Betrayed husbands have a hard job; Dr. Harley encourages us to -- in a sense -- "compete" with the other man to win a wife back. We're mentally tougher than women for this kind of experience, and can usually do so for longer without suffering the health & immune-system issues women experience. But it takes some encouragement to do it right and keep up the level of intensity it takes. 15 hours a week times 52 weeks in a year times two years is his typical recommendation to give your all to the program before throwing in the towel. That's 1,560 hours -- the better part of a year spent in a full-time job (2080 hours), really -- to commit to doing everything in your power to bring a reluctant wife on-board with the program and turn your marriage into something GREAT.

Are you up for the challenge? I'm on the other side of it now and can say that it works really well once you're both committed!

On the flip side, if you decide to get a divorce because of your wife's infidelity, you are still in that window where it's completely justifiable. Totally up to you and what you believe you can live with.