I dated my husband of 5 years for 3 years before marriage. We have 3 children 2,5,6. The problem is that he cheated on me and also has a son 6. But my daughter is older. I have never been able to accept this and it has ruined our marriage. It has continued to ruin us over even after all of these years. I don't know how to get past it and move on in my life. I feel like I need to accept it for the sake of the marriage . But I can't.

Kandi: You are not alone here. There are many of us in this very same situation. I couldn't pull up your bio so I don't know your story. Did this happen after you were married? Is there contact with the OW and the OC? Has there been any infidelity during your marriage since then? Did you and your H ever have counselling? <BR>If you are new here you'll find a few of us dealing with the horror of pregnancy outside the marriage and the OC issue. My H's OW gave birth August 20th but we have no contact with her or with the child and will not be involved with them on any level. Audrey is also one of us as well as Daycare Disaster and Life. I don't think anyone here is in a marriage where this is not "fresh" to us. You say this occurred six years ago so you have had experience as to how this has impacted your life.<BR>I am so glad you are here because it means you want to save your marriage and are addressing the problem that has been haunting you for so long. The people on this board are very helpful and insightful. Maybe you can get ride of some of your demons here in time. The best way is to read some old posts from the last year under our names. Please post again and give some more information and we will be here for you. God bless you for your courage and desire to work on your marriage.

Kandi: I think we can learn a lot from you since you've had several years experience. I for one am having a tough time coping because it is all so sudden and new to me. I've been married 20 years next March and my H and I are going through some strange times. I would appreciate your input as to what to expect and how you have coped so far.

ggg

Sorry for all the ggg's I was testing my password. I am having a very hard time. My husband will sneak and see the little boy whenever and however he can. I denied him and he would do it anyway because that is what he wanted to do. We constantly fight about the situation and it only makes it worse. Because now he will lie to me about anything that has to do with that little boy. And now the ow wants us to be kosher for the sake of the kids. But it is hard. It really is not her fought, it is his. He made the mistake. Why should I have to pay for it? He did not choose to tell me until a year into our marriage about the child. My inlaws and I do get along and they adore the ow and oc and that makes it even harder. I feel like my marriage is already ruined I'm just going through the motions. I do not have any trust for my husband. He has lied to me from day one about this and continues to lie. But what am I to do, we have 3 children. Help

Dear kandi,<P>As catnip mentioned, you are not alone. My situation is very similar to yours. My H and I have 3 young children (8, 3, and 1) and the OC was born on Aug. 16th. It is a very difficult and stressful situation with no easy answers. We have chosen to include the OC in our lives. The OW is married so my H will not be the daddy to this child but more of an uncle. One of the reasons that I have agreed to include the child in our lives is so that my H is not visiting the child behind my back. <P>It sounds like your H is going to have a relationship with the OC whether you like it or not. If this is the case, then I believe you need to find a way to work towards an acceptable solution with your H. This whole situation is so unfair. I'm sorry that your marriage has suffered through the years because of this mess.<P>Please take care of yourself and know that you can come here for support.<P>Audrey

Kandi,<P>Here in Canada the statute of limitations on bankruptcy is 7 years. After that it gets removed from your credit record. "Life" in prison usually means eligible for parole after 14 to 25 years, depending on the crime.<P>You have some serious grievances with your husband. I think it is time to either start a process, possibly involving a counselor, to resolve them, or it is time to let him go. People deserve to be forgiven. And the "OC" (what the heck kind of phrase is that) is just not responsible for the "sins" of his parents. He is just a little boy just like your children, and deserves to be treated as such.<P>Either you can live with it, or you can't. If you can live with it, which so far seems to be what you have indicated by producing 2 more children, you need to forgive him. Forgiveness means (I like this definition) that you are no longer angry about it, you no longer think about it, and you no longer talk about it. Do you feel this is where you are?<BR>

I see upon re-reading your 1st post that all this happened before you were even married? Why did you marry him if you had not forgiven him? Most men, myself anyway, would think that anything that happened prior to marriage was dealt with acceptably, or the marriage wouldn't proceed. But I do understand that sometimes feeling don't really come out until years later.

nonplussed,<BR>I have not posted to this message board in months, but I'd like to tell you that your messages do NOT constitute support!! If you had read correctly, you would see that this woman's husband fathered a child just AFTER their firstborn, did not tell his wife for some time into the marriage (which means their second child together was probably born about the time she found out--not great), and he continues to lie to her about how he spend his time. I don't see where you get off lecturing HER!! And "Other Child" is a whole lot nicer term than what some people call it! I don't think you've got a grasp on how VERY painful this is to live with, for everyone involved. Imagine it in your life for awile.<P>kandi, my H too fathered another child, the exact age of our 1yo. But our situation is different and our solution isn't your solution. I think it is critical to get honesty and agreement back into your marriage. Dr Harley says we should operate on a "policy of joint agreement", to keep negotiating until you can both live with a solution. And I think counseling is a Fabulous idea!!! My Best wishes!

I need to thank all of the supporters in this forum. I now feel like I am not alone. Thanks Jenny. I am trying so hard but I am lying to myself. My H is an excellent father to our children it is hard to imagine him having such a closeness with the oc and ow that we once had. His birthday is coming and of course he wants gifts, but I feel like it should not come from my household income it should only come from my husbands extra money. Is this wrong, to make him work more hours and do side jobs to pay for this expense? I want to do the right thing, but I just feel that the right thing is not in me.

Kandi: Jenny's suggestion for you and your H to utilize Dr. harley's Policy of Joint Agreement I beleive is crucial to the survival of your marriage. It can bring trust into your marriage and provide a blueprint for your H and for you to follow concerning the OC and the OW. This can be done and has been for others with outstanding results. It may just be the answer. Keep coming here for support. I for one am very glad you are here. It means that you care very much for your marriage, family and H and are looking for solutions to a very difficult situation. God bless and comfort, guide and protect you.<P><BR>Jenny. It is WONDERFUL to hear from you and hear your wisdom and sage advice. I have missed you.

Alright then Jenny, if I am the lecturer and you are not, answer this question:<P>Do you think honesty can be restored in a relationship if that requires one person to limit contact with one of their children?<P>Ok, two questions,<P>Do you feel that a person who would wish their partner to limit contact with a child deserves honesty?<P>I use the phrase "relationship" because some of these events, including the birth of kandi's first child, appear to predate their marriage, if I am doing the math correctly. I am in no position based on the information provided to determine what happened or why, and who contributed in what way at that time. Neither, I assume, are you. But what we can probably agree upon is that this child is innocent and deserves a father, even if that father is split between two families. It's the only father he's got.<P>Quite frankly I don't see anything constructive in asking this man to limit contact with his son. I also don't understand all this stuff about working extra hours if he wants to by him a birthday present. It's his kid, after all. What's he buying, a new car? How much money are we talking about here?<P>Obviously this situation is less than perfect and there are hurt feelings all the way around. Mistakes were made by all the adults involved. It's not something that can be forgiven and forgotten in a day.<P>But I believe the correct course of action is to move forward with generosity and forgiveness. I believe this child is innocent, and ALL the adults involved have an oath to God (if you will) to protect and nurture this child (and all children) as best as they can.<P>And yes, I do know something about split families involving children. No, my situation is not similar. But the lady I am with now seems to understand that my children are my #1 priority. If I had children with two women, each and every one of those children would be a #1 priority equally. I can't even grasp the concept of differentiating between them. And if she asked me to, she would find herself suffering a "priority downgrade" in an awful hurry. That, in my opinion, is more than any parent can ask of any other parent under any circumstances.<P>As to whether I am being supportive or not, perhaps your opinion and mine are not the same. In my opinion, support does not necessarily mean agreement. Sometimes I find it helpful to see things from a second viewpoint and challenge my own emotions and opinions. Even if I see nothing new I agree with, at least it's one more angle that I know I have considered. Turns out I am not always right. Seldom has it been someone who agreed with me that was helpful. All that has ever produced for me is self justification for some course of action I had envisioned that ultimately does not achieve my goals.<P>

nonplused, <P>I thought this particular forum was for people to seek help and understanding on how to deal with situations that are similar. Obviously, your situation is nothing like mine, seeing that you are a man. You cannot relate to what I am saying or going through. You are telling me things that I already know, whether right or wrong these are my feelings. What you and your girlfriend is doing has absolutely nothing to do with my situation. If she choooses to accept you and your children, that is her, not me. I you were my boyfriend or husband and had children prior to our relationship, I would have accepted your children with open arms. But since the child was not, I don't have to go out of my way and do nothing. I was ultimately deceived. Let's be realistic, who actually loves all the children in the world, just because they are innocent children. Get real! Maybe where you are from you do things a little bit different. But you definitely CANNOT relate.

Kandy, <P>Just ignore this non-plused person. Rely on the people that are here to offer you strength and courage! I am another "old-timer" who has not posted here for nearly 8 months. I just sneak in from time to time to see how everyone is doing. My H has a 3 year old to the OW, I found out 2 years ago. Its hard and it seems like just when you get back up on the horse, something knocks you down. The only thing that I can agree wth non-plused about is this child is innocent. My H and I no longer participate in the OC life, only because the OW is a pure nutcase who has threatened me. Unfortunately, we have not spoken to my H's parents or family in over a year because they have chosen the OW and OC over us. I feel terrible for this child because he doesn't have a dad in his life, but I still think that for right now it is better this way. It is such a messed up situation. I can sympathize with you completely. Your H should not be sneaking out to his child. This is something that I believe needs to be a joint effort between the two of you. Perhaps, easing into you seeing this child and becoming a part of his life. I think that your H is being selfish. What about your feelings. You are the one with the knife in your back every time he sneaks off. I will pray for you tonight. I know you are struggling, after all of these years. Have you ever been in counseling? Has your H ever discussed the pain he has caused you? Has he ever sat and cried with you? God Bless you Honey.

My husband does not talk about the situation he knows how much it hurts me. Communication is also a big problem in my marriage. I made a typo in one of my other post. My inlaws and I do not get along, but they adore the ow and oc. I know the child needs a father. But I am also innocent in this situation just like the child. The ow new he had a girlfriend and still chose to sleep with him. This is also her problem. I do not sympathize at all for her or her child. I know this is wrong. We tried counseling once a few years ago but we still need help. I truly believe that if we could communicate our feelings we would be okay. We seperated a few months ago and he went to live with the ow. This also a major problem. We are trying and we don't fight about anything but this. It is extremely hard for me. But I know that he loves me and don't want to loose me that is the reason he has lied, to protect my feelings about the ordeal. But it is making me a nervous wreak. Other than this we have a great life together. I feel like he is honest about everything else. <P>Seeking help,<P>kandi

Kandi,<BR>You don't have to wait for your H to go before you go to counseling. My H and I were separated for several month after he confessed, due to a work relocation. I went to a counselor on my own and it still helped our relationship!! Some counselors are better at this situation than others, so if one is no help, seek another. I have really found it helpful in my life. You need support, a clear head, someone who knows of really healthy ways to approach things, because we all learn dysfunctional ideas in life and make mistakes.<P> I really feel for your deliemma. That your H is a wonderful father, I can relate to, too. Keeping a family together for the childrens' sake is very understandable but you want to be role modeling a healthy marriage, too. I think it is realistic to face that you'll never get this child and his mother completely out of your life, but it is important to your marriage to make BOUNDARIES as to what behaviors are okay and what are not regarding your H seeing the kid. If your H wants a good relationship with you, he needs to behave in a trustworthy fashion, letting you know where he is at all times, and know that spending time with the former(?) OW is not acceptable. It sounds like you two never resolved issues from the original affair. Regarding the OC, I'd say you need to negotiate as a couple until you agree on what the boundaries will be, but ask a counselor's suggestions for what is healthy! Will your H respect a professional opinion?? In any negotiation, you start in position A and he starts in position Z, (or maybe you find you are not sooo far apart in your thinking), and you meet somewhere around M, if you know what I mean. Unless you are willing to say "my way or the highway", you'll have to give some on your position and so will he. I think it is reasonable for him to see the OC, but NOT around the mother and not at the expense of your own family(contrary to what someone else thinks), else your own marriage is destroyed and your children come to resent their half-sibling for consuming so much of their father. YOU are his family and that is where he owes most of his time, money and attention. Whether you are willing to include the child around you and your children should be up to you--that is a very emotional issue, but does make is easier to keep an eye on the hubby and keep him closer to home. <P>The OC's birthday? Personally, I've chosen to buy myself what few gifts we have sent the OC, by mutual agreement. Last time we both signed the card, too, as any contact my H has (we're long distance and he's never seen the child in person) will have to be at our place, dealing with it as a family. If gifts were left up to H, he would procrastinate in shame and indecision until it was late and the suspense and drama of it all is worse than doing it myself. He labels the package and I close them, so that I get to see that he is not sending any secret messages. Yes, it feels silly and artificial, but it also makes me feel better. We are a one-income house, so who pays is not an issue. I never thought of a birthday gift as a big purchase, most of the time.<P>Okay, this is too long and I better go. <P>HI too to Destroyed and Catnip and Daycare Distaster and Audrey. I've missed you guys too. Such a lonely road to travel!<P>Finally, to Nonplused, your feelings for your children are admirable, but I think you fail to imagine how different it is for the partner when a child is born of adultery. The partner has essentially been raped into step-parenthood. That sounds ugly, but I don't know how else to put it. It was dishonest and ugly to do it in the first place. The parent who commited adultery owes it to his spouse and the children he CHEATED on to "make good", whatever that takes. Yes, that sucks for the innocent other child, but why don't the mothers of these children put them up for adoption rather than drag them and the rest of us through this living nightmare?? Probably the same selfishness that allowed the mother to sleep with someone else's partner!!<p>[This message has been edited by Jenny (edited November 07, 1999).]

Thanks to everyone concerned and your thoughts and feelings have made me feel a lot better. Especially knowing I am not alone. I know that this all happened before we were married but we were(supposedly)in a committed relationship. I did not find out until a year and a half later into our marriage. He lies so frequently about this situation it is unreal. But what really hurts is that she is so close to his family, that my husband and I have no family secrets. She knows everything about my husband that I know. She knows about every fight we have. Of course, they don't tell her about all the goodtimes that we have. I think telling my husband to purchase a gift from his personal income is not unreasonable. Last year, he bought a gift for him and I knew nothing about it until recently. This probably came directly from my income seeing that my husband was laid off from September 17th until January 11. The little boy's birthday is next week. I know that the past should remain in the past. But this is not just the past, it is my present and future. I will always have to deal with his affair head on. I think I will take your advice and go to counseling on my own as a start. I love him dearly, but my feelings and anger and resentment will eventually seperate us. The month that we were apart nearly killed both of us. He came back home running. Again thank you for the support and continue to help if at all possible.

kandi after reading your response to my pain I had to look up your profile. I know this is probably what you don't want to here but maybe you can take something from it. I once talked with a friend that found out her husband han another child outside of marirage. Only she didn't find out the regular way. The children attended the same school and her number was listed as an emergency number,talk about shock! Anyway, I asked her how come she stayed and she said that LOVE was stronger than the desire to leave. At the time I couldn't understand what she meant. Maybe it was easier since it happen years ago and they had been happy since it happen. I really should take a lesson from her but for some reason I felt this was different from my present situation. Go figure?

Jenny,<P>You are right. I know nothing of the pain involved for the adults, especially kandi, in these situation. I suppose I will in the near future as my ex plans on more children with "lawn mower man". I think even then I am somewhat insulated as my ex and I do not discuss anything any longer other than the well being of the children and scheduling.<P>It strikes me, as an outsider with little vested interest, that there appears to be a lot of emotional overlap in this situation. What I mean by that is, I can clearly understand how the "affair" (pre-marriage, not sure how to define it) is hurtful. I can understand how a person does not need and perhaps should not have unsupervised contact with former lovers. I can understand the pain involved in the situation. What I cannot understand is how these emotions and limitations are then being projected on to a child. I'm sure the child at no time meant any harm to anybody. Heck, he wasn't even conceived yet. The issues are between kandi, her husband, and the "OW". The child is really an innocent victim. <P>So I think the anger and the hurt should be directed to the correct people. The adults involved.<P>I think your ideas about negotiated and "in the open" visitation are excellent. The husband definitely should not be sneaking around. And I think no unsupervised contact with the "OW" (is that an appropriate term in this case?) is just good sense. But I also think everyone involved has an obligation to do their best for all the children involved. These kids just aren't ready to deal with these "big people" problems yet. Surely there would be a way to do that?<BR>

I have been searching this forum for answers/suggestions/advice about how to live with the OC visitation issue we will be facing very soon. OC is 15 months old and my H has not seen her in over 5 months because OW is angry that he has chosen to rebuild our marriage and not divorce me and marry her. She is using child as a way to punish him. In fact, although she denies it, she got pregnant as a last-ditch effort to keep him when she sensed he was pulling away.<BR> We pay child support she requested and are suing for visitation rights. At first, she insisted HE alone visit child at HER home (their little love nest.) Bottom line for me. How can I handle seeing her-face-to-face through this whole visitation ritual. I have told myself that I will just deal with it as it comes, but I'm not so sure I can. H seems very committed to rebuilding and says he and I are in this together, but SHE has always been able to manipulate him and the situation.<BR> H has had no contact with OW or OC for 5 months and says that seeing her again to pick up the child, etc. will not rekindle old feelings, but I'm worried. I want to be able to handle interactions with her with dignity and grace, even though I'd like to scratch her eyes out and slit her throat. (My goodness! That was ugly!!)<BR> PLEASE tell me how others of you in this situation have handled it! Visitation will probably stat in 2 or 3 weeks. Not sure because all communication goes through our attorneys now. I wish we could pick up child from a 3rd party rather than seeing her, but I know that's just avoiding an issue we must ultimately learn to deal with.<BR> This whole things seems so sordid and sleazy to me. I'm trying hard not to "get up with fleas" even though I am forced to "lie down with dogs." <BR>