Dr Harley has the best plan for step parenting and it is found in His Needs, Her Needs for Parents.

Mel has had real life fun experience with grocery market POJA !
LOL

Good thing I didn't bring my pistola that day.

Which CLEARLY demonstrates why you'll want to practice POJA on fruits/veggies/grains/dairy/deli before you tackle the tricky issues !!!

Hi Pepperband, thanks for helping me think this through. I read your thread on Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders (thanks for bumping, and I posted a reply). I'm a little confused by what you wrote above and what you quoted in the Buyers, Renters, Freeloaders thread.

From above:


And from the Buyers, Renters, Freedloaders thread ( link here) my underline:


From Dr. Harley's quote, it seems that POJA does involve an examination of at least your Taker, and I would guess your Giver also.

My feeling is that if I can get both my Giver and Taker to be enthusiastic about a decision, then I know for certain that I'm enthusiastic about it. That's what I would call a gut feeling. If I'm unsure about a decision, possibly it's because only one of my Giver or Taker is enthusiastic about it, while the other is not.

How about asking yourself two questions:

• From my Giver's point of view, am I enthusiastic with this decision?
• From my Taker's point of view, am I enthusiastic with this decision?

and making sure you answer those questions with radical honesty.

I ordered it yesterday, thanks Melody!

Hi AGG, thanks for your thoughts, and I appreciate you taking the time to try to help me figure things out. The posts on this thread have definitely helped.

Something you wrote above made me wonder:

Rhetorical question: If marriage is usually harder than dating, why get married? It seems that I've heard many situations where a couple was dating and everything was fine, and then they got married and things started getting difficult. Is there something about being "stuck with each other" that causes this? MB principles would say emotional needs are not being met, love busters are occuring, etc, but what causes this? Why does the marriage contract seem to create an environment in which it's easier to engage in love busters and to stop meeting each others emotional needs?

You're complicating it way too much! How do you even know how to contact your giver anyway!

Just ask AM I ENTHUSIASTIC

If you're not enthusiastic about the work of a task, but you do want the result then that's still enthusiasm.

Just avoid sacrifices that don't benefit you.

Are you somebody who feels guilty in standing up for what they want?



Relationships get harder, but more rewarding over time. They start out as freeloader (only be around someone very easy to get along with) then become renter (provide only tit-for-tat levels of care while you decide if its permanent. This is only sustainable for a few years. Eventually major work/major life problem will be required on the 'home' that a renter isn't prepared to do. Only married people are buyers. Buyers solve problems together instead of one telling the landlord to sort it themselves, buyers appreciate the need for and expense of maintainance.

Children, stress, and general life problems tend to need the care of a buyer.

If you don't become a buyer, the renter arrangement, while easy going, is disposable and you will lose it. Sometimes a good thing if its not really the house for you.

Being a buyer requires more input but it will earn you more back.

The marriages that fail are usually the ones that try to keep the pre-marriage tit for tat renter arrangement going. There are sulks as soon as work is needed.

People who have lived together for a long time before marriage are the worst offenders here

Well, if Dr. Harley says that your Taker must be enthusiastic about any decision, then I assume there must be a way to contact your Taker, as well as your Giver; otherwise, how would you know if your Taker is enthusiastic?

No, I don't feel guilty, but I am giver-centric and naturally try to meet the needs of others before my own. I'm not saying that's good, just that I don't feel guilty when I do stand up for my needs.

I disagree with this. I know couples in long-term relationships (25-30yrs) who chose not to legally marry. They're happy and as committed to working on their relationship as any married couple I've known.

My brother and his girlfriend appear to be one of these couples. But behind closed doors she begs for commitment and he asks for the SDs to stop first.

Most MBers will disagree with me here but the situation you describe is POSSIBLE. I know one couple who are buyers and unmarried 30 years. She is very shy of crowds and her mother would have insisted on a huge family wedding. They have legal arrangements instead, but their situation is v unusual.

Without making the commitment though you have to trust without verification your partner is commited. Dr H says to not trust to that level, always verify.

There's usually a reason people dont make the commitment. Often because they selfishly demand unconditional trust or are keeping options open.

The usual scenario is people move in before feeling committed 'to see how it goes'. Adding that level of strain on to an uncommitted relationship means they will never feel like getting married.

The relationship deteriorates and marriage is often proposed as a cure. The renter arrangement often stays in place though and disheartened they D soon afterwards.

Hey KL,
I read a question you asked on another thread about a Chrisitan concept.
I also read that you have been ordering a lot of books and have quite an impressive reading list. However, to answer the question I reference above, I would suggest the book "boundaries".
Also I wasn't sure if you had been reading "I promise you" by Harley; not to add to your list even further.
My fiance and I are getting a lot out of IPY which isn't referenced on these boards that much. I find it to be more than just a reinforcement of previous concepts and that it applies the knowledge to engaged couples quite nicely.

opt

Enthusiam is by definition an obvious feeling. If you need to have complicated chats with yourself to be sure then you are NOT enthusiastic.

Thanks Opt, I'll check out Boundaries, but not sure when. I do have I Promise You, and you're right, my reading list is getting a bit long! I don't which book to focus on first; I wish I was a speed reader. Thanks for the recommendation.

Very good point!

Still, I'm intrigued by Dr. Harley's mention of a person's Taker being enthusiastic about a decision.....

Also, I agree with your previous post about the unlikelihood of a successful long-term relationship in the which the partners are Buyers but not married. Like you, I think it's possible, but not very common. Thanks for your thoughts indiegirl!

KL

Are you an engineer of some sort?

Of some sort, yes; I like plumbing the depths of things that are interesting, like Dr. Harley's POJA.

Pepperband, since you've been on these forums a long time, do you know other veterans who might have insight on Dr. Harley's assertion: "What I'm saying is that your Taker needs to be enthusiastic about every decision."

Mark1952 has good insight on many Marriage Builders principles, but he doesn't seem to post much anymore. I'm wondering if there are current posters who I could ask this question of.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not losing sleep over this one. Just curious, and if someone has experience with querying their Giver and Taker independently, I'd like to hear about it.

I have read Dr. Harley's Giver/Taker extensively to grasp the depths of POJA. The "neutral position of do nothing" bothered me for the longest time. After combining Giver/Taker, Lovebusters, and HNHN I have determined this about what it means to be enthusiastic. Granted each person may have a differing threshold for enthusiastic, so it could be different.

When I look at the POJA I look at three combinations: My Taker, My Giver, and my Spouses EN's.

First look at your Spouses EN's. Will I be enthusiastic about meeting an EN for my spouse if I am enthusiastic about this decision? (Hopefully this is Yes)

Second look at your Giver: Will I be sacrificing myself if I am enthusiastic about this decision? (Hopefully this is NO)

Third look at your Taker: Will being enthusiastic about this decision create a lovebuster for my spouse? (Hopefully this is NO)

Each time you need to use POJA ask yourself these three questions.



Peps idea of starting at the supermarket will help you get practice. My suggestion is to keep honing in your emotional needs to you can tailor your responses to your ENs. This will ensure your lovebank is fully charged.

Does this help?

ETA: I will warn you. POJA is extremely ineffective with couples who live together before marriage. Dr. Harley states this gives them a renter mentality. POJA is best when used by both parties who are buyers and hold dear the care of their spouse.

Now, how did I guess?????

LOL LOL LOL

A year ago .... there was this thread about "engineers" ....

For fun ...... ** take a look ** .

The thread starter began with an obvious bias/prejudice .... and from there she lost control of the rest of us !

Thread title: How do I get an engineer to feel and express? *snort*

Thank you GodGiveMeStrength. I was beginning to wonder if I was over-analyzing this concept. I'm fascinated with POJA; I see many posts where people have trouble understanding or applying it. My girlfriend and I don't live together, and we haven't really tried it, so for me, learning about POJA is sort of like learning how to ride a bicycle by reading about it.

I think I'm ready to start learning by experience, maybe in the grocery store as you and several other posters have suggested.

Thanks a lot for your thoughts, I really appreciate them.