Here's my take on her hanging with the POSOM and your kids. Waywards live in a fantasy world and surely, your WW surely fantasized about getting a divorce and remarrying the POSOM. She brought him around your kids to indulge this fantasy.

She could sit there with all of them and pretend this was her NEW family, and "see how well he gets along with the kids? See! He'd be a great Dad! I picked a winner and can get divorced knowing that I'm going to replace my husband with a wonderful man for me and the kids!!"

It's sick and offensive and it's possible you're not going to get over this betrayal.

Your WW has you feeling so shamed about not being the provider she wants that the power balance in your relationship is way off. Forgive yourself for whatever you think you did wrong and of course, work on making it right but don't let her make it seems justifiable that she had a long term, disgusting affair. One that she included your kids in.

Don't hesitate to be tough with her. She's entitled, spoiled and on an power trip about making more money. She has and sill feel justified to do whatever the heck she wants, when she wants and this attitude, my friend is a killer of families.

Exposure is essential. Tell your family , her family and definitely tell your kids. Not just mommy's 'friend' went away but that mommy's been having an affair.

Have you contacted the POSOM's wife? You need to do this if you haven't already! His wife can help you kill this thing off, once and for all.

You'll feel empowered by exposing. She's been carrying on like this for YEARS and has likely told everyone what a terrible husband you are. DON'T DRINK THE KOOLAID! Don't you go buying into the 'terrible husband' load of crap. She's had you cowed into a corner with this "you're not everything I want and need in a husband." Well you might have some stuff to work on but you didn't bring some skank home to dine with your kids! You didn't jet off to have sex with some loser using family funds.

Your lady needs a firm hand. FIRM HAND. She's been doing whatever she wants for a long time and all the while grumbling to anyone who will listen about what a disappointment you are. At some point you're probably going to experience some powerful rage if you're not there already.

Here's another good article by Dr. H explaining the brain differences between men and women when he was teaching.

Why Are The Differences Between a Man and a Woman so Valuable in a Marriage

Thanks Zibbles. OM divorced his wife a year ago, so no help there. I can forgive myself for not providing more $$$ to our family, because I never gave up and sat around. The economy being so bad the last few years has also been a factor, but she seems to ignore that reality. I know I have been a very good father in all other ways. I have also been a decent husband even though she made it difficult to love her for the last few years. Over the last 8 months I have improved myself considerably and I am I am very proud of the man I have become. I still have further to go and securing a better job is part of that.

I follow what you wrote about her involving the kids, kind of trying out the New family. That still is a tough thing for me to contend with. From what others have written it is not entirely uncommon and it does not have to foreclose R. (If I had a short EA/PA, I think she would have given me a second chance, but if I had involved the kids in it the way she did, I doubt she would have ever forgiven me and given me any chance at R).

About telling the kids, my older daughter figured it out and her reaction has been the biggest thing to bring about the apparent end of the A. No sure about telling my younger daughter about it, because she is only 10. Is this too young?

Not too young...mine were 14 and 11.

In all honesty, they had a feeling what was going on, and knew more than I thought they knew anyhow.

Expose to everyone.

Man_learning,

About telling the kids, my older daughter figured it out and her reaction has been the biggest thing to bring about the apparent end of the A

You just validated the effectiveness of even unintended and limited exposure.

OM divorced his wife a year ago, so no help there.

I would still speak with OMW, she may know of other affairs OM had, this will help destroy your WWs fantasy that she and OM are special.

Also OM has co-workers/customers/clients, he has family and he has children of his own all of whom can be exposed to. You need to attack OMs reputation so that he utterly ejects you WW you need to destroy his fantasy as well. OM had no problem attacking your childrens family.

BTW you feel bad about not having a job, that's understandable, but how much has OM contributed to your family treasury? Perhaps your not having a job is not the central issue here.

God Bless
Gamma

Gamma,

Good point -- he should still expose to OM's ex-W, definitely.

I did tell the OMxW shortly after I found the proof. She was not surprised to learn of the A, which was on going during their marriage. I have not exposed it to his co-workers/customers/clients or children, partly because I think my W is not responding to contact from him. (I know she could be deceiving me about this, but I tend to think she is not).

BTW I do have a job, but it does not pay much. I have been tying to secure a better position, which will pay much better and have some benefits.

Everyone here has been very helpful and I want to thank you.

More help, especially on the last two questions I raised would be appreciated. Those two questions were:

3. Does a W's refusal to view an A as being a wrong or bad thing reflect an inability to mentally handle the harsh reality of such awful conduct? (Guilt/shame avoidance)

4. Do cheaters that make true recovery eventually view the A as a bad mistake?

I guess I would extend the last question to ask WW or WS if, even after recovery, do any of you think your A really was a true love?

Man Learning,
Your wife's affair went on for a couple years and OM divorced a year ago. Maybe OMW would like to know OM had one in the wings and maybe your divorce was next. Their plans may have been interupted but you should expose so OM will move on and never return. OMW could give your wife some "Clarity" about OM.
dan

Starting from the bottom:

4. Do cheaters that make true recovery eventually view the A as a bad mistake?

Kinda like asking "Do things always fall 'down'?" The answer is "Depends if 'down' in your environment is defined as 'toward the center of mass of the body supplying the controlling gravitational field'"

So if you (as I) would define "true recovery" as "learning what a marriage is supposed to entail, including absolute care of, and fidelity to, the spouse in question, and committing to those principles with the current spouse with all the fibre of one's being", well then, by definition, the prior, pre-awareness actions which flew in the face of the new knowledge would HAVE to be seen as horrendous.

3. Does a W's refusal to view an A as being a wrong or bad thing reflect an inability to mentally handle the harsh reality of such awful conduct? (Guilt/shame avoidance)

Overtly, this is not a rare occurrence among WWs (WHs seem to more readily accept "I [censored] up!") Dr. Harley has stated that many WWs NEVER bring themselves to actually verbalize "I'm sorry!" However, ignoring verbal communication, until the WW in question has that (private?) "What the HELL was I thinking?" moment, she hasn't gotten the message yet. There can be no justification for an affair; so how could she still be justifying it?

You can't trust your wife to go no contact. This is a long term, entrenched affair. You can tell that contact is continuing sometimes because she's still angry and irritable. They could have just gotten better at hiding it or decided to cool off until things settle down a bit.

Snoop! You need to be watching. She should send a no contact letter that you approve.

This guy divorced his wife so there's nothing standing in the way on his end. I think you're in a more shaky position than you realize here, I am sorry to say.

I had an EA a few years ago with an old highschool boyfriend. Once it blew up, I felt disgust and definitely realized it was wrong, if that helps answer your question.

The goal of recovery via MB is to fall back in love and have a passionate marriage. Most waywards will regret their bad behavior of recovery is happening. The lack of remorse and the anger are bad signs IMO unless you can confirm for certain that there's no contact. Then, she might be going through withdrawal.

This is what I mean about a FIRM HAND. You need to give her YOUR list of conditions for remaining in the marriage. She doesn't get to be in charge after her disastrous judgment and behavior. Be polite but you need to get control of the wheel here. Waywards will drive the bus right into the ditch if you let them.

A radio clip from Dr. Harley telling children even as young as 4.

The Harley's discuss telling the children even as young as 4 about the affair

ml,
this is in regards to your question to the waywards about thinking the affair partner really was a true love. as a fww, while in the A, i thought that. during that time, i thought what i found was meant to be. now my husband and i have been in recovery for 6 months, i look back and realize how screwed up my thinking was. he was definately not a true love, but quite the opposite. it was exactly what the veterans are saying here that it was an addiction and my mind in a fog. my fog was lifting during a false recovery and by the time i sent the no contact letter, my fog was completely lifted. i realized what a fool i was and how much damage/hurt i have casued so many people around me that i loved. there definately has to be absolutely no contact for your wife's fog to clear and realize that she was living in a fantasy world, not reality.

Is there reason or hypothesis as to why WHs can and do verbalize "I'am sorry," but WWs do not?

It would help me and our marriage to have my W sincerely say that.

Thank you clearmind. I really appreciate that you and other FWW are willing to post on this forum. I am sure it must not be easy for you, but you are really helping others like me.

You mentioned having a "false recovery," could you add a bit more to that. Did it involve some contact after the DDay?

If my W contacts the OM, or worse meets with him, what is the best way to handle it? I have told her she will make my decision making process easy if she does reach out to him.


Zimbbles is right, I am in a shaky position. Thankfully I am aware of this now. I had been fighting this thing for years without know I even had an opponent, for that matter two opponents, my WW and the OM. I have some transparency, but its not complete.

Man_learning,

I can only say for my W, but it seems even after 20+ years she still feels justified in cheating on me, and still blames me for creating the conditions which made her cheat. If my W were to apologize it would tip the scale in my favor, and she would have to face the fact that she acted like her father who she distrusted almost her whole life because of his cheating.

God Bless
Gamma

Wow that surprises me. If you do not mind me asking, were you otherwise able to recover and have a good marriage to date?

You know my W's dad was a cheater too. I have thought that might play a part in her doing what she did. She is also not a good communicator. I wish, probably like all BS, she had clearly communicated how "truly unhappy" she was before doing this.

She says NOW that she was very unhappy before the affair. ALL waywards say this. It's part of the fog. She might have been bored and maybe her needs weren't all getting met but I doubt when was as unhappy as she's claiming to be upon reflection.

I hope you're taking notes and documenting stuff. Get some snooping in place. You need to know how you will respond if she's still in contact or makes contact.

I'd paint a VERY ugly picture of divorce if it comes up. Let her know that if it goes down this road you will be bringing the affair up and will have her and the OM brought to court to talk about the affair and how they spent time with your kids, etc.

You can do this in a very polite way. No getting angry. Just let her know if it comes down to that you will be fighting for full custody, etc. She needs to know that you're not just going to roll over and let her have her way at every turn.

You have to (gently but firmly) remind this wayward that you are nor letting her make the rules anymore.

Some marriages never recover. They limp along, wounded and painful. There are a handful of BH's on here with wives who've never really attempted to recover with them. A lot of these guys soldier on and it is excruciating to watch. Some WW's are just plain spoiled and entitled and never happy and there's no way to snap them out of it.

I hope yours is not one of those.

I should have said MOST marriages never recover. It's a narrow path.