This thread was inspired by reading Optimism's thread: Another After Divorce Story. I started posting to him asking for advice, and when I realized my question had the potential to direct attention away from his thread, I decided to start a new one.

I met my girlfriend about 10 months after my ex-wife and I separated, but it wasn't until 4 months later that my divorce was final. (Just to be clear, where I live, people have to be separated 1 year before divorce can be granted. My ex-wife and I had already resigned ourselves to divorce before I met my girlfriend. Without saying that, some might wonder if I got divorced because I met my girlfriend.) My girlfriend and I sometimes wonder about the effects of that, whether I should've taken some time to, as Optimism put it, "get the past in the rearview mirror." It's been over 2 years now since the divorce was final, and the rearview mirror seems pretty clear, but every now and then I feel that I missed something, missed an opportunity to just be me, without having the responsibilities that come with being in a relationship. It's not a strong feeling, but it does come up once in a while, and like Opt, I've never really been single, having married straight out of college.

When I read the description of Optimism's first date and how he simply loved being around a woman, that's how I was with my girlfriend. It felt so good to have someone interested in me, and we hit it off rather quickly. I admit that I was needy at the time, but we've been through some seasons of life since then, going on 3 years now. Interestingly, it was another woman friend of mine who recommended asking my now girlfriend out the first time. The friend had been divorced and was a good sounding board for me while I was going through my own divorce. Not that she's an expert or anything, but I grew to trust her advice. I was unsure about dating too soon, and when I asked her about it, she said I should go out, have a nice time, and simply enjoy the presence of woman. And that I did.

As I read through the October and November 2010 posts in Optimism's thread, I saw a few cautions to slow down, while also recognizing the temptation to fall head over heels. In my case, my girlfriend was also telling me that I should consider taking some time for myself (yes, she's smart!), but I didn't want to hear that, and our relationship developed quickly. Coincidentally, this all happened during the same timeframe that Optimism was first posting about his dating experiences. It would've been nice, had I known, to compare notes back then.

Fast forward to today. I posted on another thread (here) about the problems I'm having connecting with one of my girlfriend's sons from her previous marriage. (She's been divorced 7 years, btw.) We had a heart-to-heart talk about it last weekend and decided that recent discussions had become too heavy, we weren't enjoying the relationship the way we used to, and we decided to take a break. We've still called each other a couple times and emailed, there's no hard feelings between us, and we still love each other, but we haven't seen each other since Sunday. She's leaving on a business trip tomorrow for a week, so it'll be at least 2 weeks that we won't see each other, by far the most since we started dating.

In the meantime, I feel very conflicted about this break. My head-over-heels feelings for her are long gone, and what remains is a deep love. My girlfriend and I have a way of exploring each others' psychological interiors like no one else I've ever met before, and I think what we have is rare. We're very good together, as a number of our friends, and both of our individual counselors have recognized. The problem has come down to me accepting (or not) her "package." She has two teenage sons, one of whom has a real sweet personality and I get along well with, and the other is a dark cloud over her household and one of 3 or 4 people I've met in life that I simply don't get along with. I hate the thought that this one individual can come between what I think is a relationship with great potential.

Since this break started last Sunday, I'm experiencing the feeling that our relationship is slipping away. It's not that I'm putting up emotional walls trying to disconnect or anything like that. It feels like I'm drifting away, losing my desire to work to keep the relationship going, and I feel helpless to stop it, almost paralyzed, like I'm watching it happen without knowing what to do to get it back. I don't know what'll happen in the future, but right now, I'm having a tough time experiencing what feels like the evaporation of my feelings. I still love my girlfriend, but my feelings about our relationship seem to be slowly slipping away. We have the kind of honesty with each other that I can express these feelings to her, and I have. She's troubled by what I'm feeling because she has had strong beliefs that I was "the one," but she's appreciative of my honesty with her, knowing that it's difficult for me to express things that I know will upset her.

AGoodGuy made several good posts on my other thread linked above. He made one on Opt's thread that I wonder about:

That's the way I would like it to happen. I wonder if my current situation is a sign that this is not the one. Or maybe I just need a break for a while to experience time not in a relationship, and then I'll be better able to handle the challenges of dealing with the situation with my girlfriend's son.

I read your posts in Opt's thread. As good as your relationship was, you were at a stalemate with her regarding her son. Her son has a very unhealthy relationship with her that could border on dangerous, and certainly that carries over into your relationship with him. It was certainly time to step back before something happened.

It could be that when the son is grown and out on his own that your relationship with his mother could be worked out...but not if she continues to hold an open door policy for him. She would have to reach the point where she demands respect from him both for you, her, and your relationship. There is something not quite right about a boy that would use the tone and terms he does with his mother, and he may need to pay a visit to a doctor for a psychological evaluation. some kids seem born this way, I have a nephew like that, in spite of his parents trying everything, getting help for him, etc. I never would have been surprised if he'd ended up in prison, and in fact he has now been arrested twice. He's brilliant, gifted, but something seriously amiss. Life with a child like that is not easy. Now he is grown and we hold our breath hoping things will work out with him but never quite sure.

Are you sure you can ride the roller coaster ride with this family? Because like it or not, when you marry, it's the family, not just the spouse. It's every family holiday, get together, crisis, etc.

Perhaps the two of you could see each other away from her house/family now and then and see how that goes. This is a really tough situation, I'm sure you're aware of that. But without her backing, without intervention, without him getting help, and it really is a family situation, if you were in the picture, all of you would have to get help learning how to best deal with this situation in order for it to work.

For now, really listen to your inner instincts and what they are trying to tell you.

Thank you for your reply Kaycstamper. It's not so much what you said that felt good, it's knowing that I can write stuff here and someone takes the time to write back. Thank you.

Her son has been in and out of psychologists AND psychiatrists office for years, has spent a significant portion of his life on medications for mental problems, and nothing seems to work. My girlfriend is now looking at possibly sending him to a boarding school, although that's quite expensive. He's away for a month at camp, and she and her other son are having a great time bonding in a way they can't when her first son is around because he's such a drain on her.

When he's with his dad every other weekend, he seems to be fine. I think some of his behavior has to do with the lack of fatherly involvement he receives from his dad.

What my instincts tell me is exactly what you wrote above, that I need to step back before something happens. The problem is, stepping back doesn't feel good.

My 2 cents ... Your thread title is spot on to answer your question. Since you have some more in your post I will break it down so you can see how separating and healing yourself my be optimal in this situation


You dated while still married. This demonstrates you have very poor boundaries around women. The justification you discuss above suggests you know this about yourself, yet you are unwilling to fix it. The kind of woman who dates a man while married IS NEVER marriage material. 95% of the time we see these relationships back on this board and they are dealing with ramifications from adultery. The main and only reason is because both parties do not understand boundaries around the opposite sex (). This woman without radical changes is not good marriage material.


You are telling us you both see the difficulties in this arrangement. You seem to understand something is not right here. Surprise Surprise your relationship is at its 2 year mark. You both are priming yourself for miserable renter relationship. Your relationship will only continue to deteriorate unless you fully implement a buyer stance: Policy of Radical Honesty and the Policy of Joint Agreement. My 2 cents here ... never see or speak to her again ... learn how to be on your own ... then pursue a healthy relationship. HNHN, lovebusters, and Giver/Taker are perfect here.


You are fully admitting here you have extremely poor boundaries around women. The kind of women you seek are ones who seem to have a wayward personality. Taking advice from a divorced woman during your divorce tells me you attract women who themselves have freeloader/renter mentality. This is yours to fix. Choose better women in your life. You admit you are needy, hence you will attract a woman who cannot be healthy for you because you are not healthy.

Again how did your first marriage end?


Of course you are having problems. You got yourself hopped up on PEA chemicals and those have worn off (2 year mark). You are starring down a mess of a woman and the cesspool you two created together in your relationship.



HUGE You need to accept her package? Huh? Am I reading this thoughtless response correctly from you? A woman you love and want to spend your life with doesn't have a "package". She has children that deserve the love and respect of the man who loves their mom. Sir, this has nothing to do with her ... this has everything to do with you. First off if there are lingering issues with her son, what you tell us is her responses to him are not healthy, hence will never be able to follow POJA because she does not want to learn proper conflict resolution. She just slaps a band-aide on it even though it needs surgery. Your response to her troubles suggest you may not have a grasp for POJA as well. You cannot properly solve conflict any other way.

Leave this woman alone. Until you resolve your own issues, stay out of her life. 85% of blended families divorce ... your chances with this woman are 0%.



Lastly ... if she thinks you are "the one", then clearly she has extremely low standards in men, and as time goes on your relationship will continue to deteriorate into the land of hell ... this relationship is a disaster. There are enough redflags with your own admitting to tell me you are not good marriage (or even boyfriend) material.

Grasp the fundamentals on what it means to be a good man and marriage material. HNHN and Lovebusters will help you understand emotional needs. Reading this forum and seeing what healthy relationships look like for couples.

First place to begin is to understand how boundaries around the opposite sex will allow you find the quality of woman you deserve and who will have a long, loving, caring relationship with you. The women you attract now will be nothing but trouble and cause you endless heartache.

Stay far away from this gal ... cut all ties to her ... live on your own and work on your personal growth.

First, stop making excuses for cheating.
I read your wayward excuses and one is married or not. Soldiers being shot at in Afghanistan this very minute may decide they want to get divorced. They may have to wait till their tour of duty is over. They are married until then.
You were married. No need to explain that your state has a 1 year waiting period.

Secondly, people that date married people usually dont respect marriage.
If you had sex with her while married then she has NO respect for marriage.

Third, Dr Harley recommends dating 30 people so you can compare and contrast.

I think you should date others. Obviously don't be in a commited relationship while dating though

GodGiveMeStrength, thank you for replying, even if it did seem a little harsh. I'm not complaining though, I should've anticipated some harshness to what I wrote, and I can see I left out some details.

Yes, it's true that I dated while still married, and I can understand that some people would call that cheating. Answering your question of how my first marriage ended might help you understand what allowed me to do that, but I won't be surprised if you still consider that I have poor boundaries.

I don't want to go into all the details, so to make a long story short, my ex-wife's involvement with a male colleague became problematic and ultimately led to our divorce. If we didn't have kids, I would've filed for divorce sooner, but they were 13 and 15 and I felt that it would be better for them if I waited. 4 years later, I moved out and filed, but I sometimes wonder if I did the right thing by waiting because it was a miserable 4 years.

In Dr. Harley's terminology, I was in the state of Withdrawal during those years. In his description of that state he says (here):

Dr. Harley differentiates between too kinds of divorce: emotional and legal. It's true that I was dating while still legally married, but it's also true that I had been emotionally divorced for over 4 years. Some people believe it's the legal status of marriage that counts. I won't argue with you if that's your belief, and I respect you for it; and if you believe what I did is wrong, that's ok too. But that's what did happen.

During the 4 years of emotional divorce, I felt a longing to have a relationship. Since I was still living with my ex-wife, that was out of the question. (Had I known about MB principles and the state of Withdrawal back then, I might've been able to save the marriage, but I didn't.) Once I moved out, I wondered whether I could legally date; emotionally I wanted to, but I didn't know if it was legal. I asked my attorney who said that as long we were separated and had filed for divorce, it was legal to date. That's what allowed me to cross the boundary that you think I have poor judgment of. My actions may not align with the boundaries you have, but I did put thought into my actions and check to see that they were legal.

I don't know what to say about your assessment that my girlfriend is not marriage material and that I should cut all ties to her, never see or speak to her again. The only thing I can think of is that what I've written, and what I've left unwritten, has given you a bad impression of her. I'm sorry about that because she's really a much better person than I think you think she is.

The following comment you wrote is interesting:

Why do you think that a divorced woman has a wayward personality? Or has a freeloader/renter mentality? Isn't it possible their divorces could've been caused by husbands who were wayward or had freeloader/renter mentalities? My girlfriend's ex-husband cheated on her, and the other woman's husband had a renter mentality. Both wanted to save their marriages, but their husbands weren't interested. If you met these women in person and got to know them, I think you'd have a different impression of them.

As far as choosing better women in my life, they generally fall into three categories: divorced, married, too young. I'm not going to choose married women, I'd prefer to date women near my age, and the only ones left are divorced women.

I guess everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but that's a little over-the-top, don't you think? Cesspool???

Sorry to offend you with the term "package." My girlfriend uses that term all the time to describe the fact that she and her two sons are a unit. I have come to use that term too, and I didn't imagine it could be interpreted negatively.

Ouch!

To be clear KeepLearning, Dr. Harley considers dating during legal separation to absolutely be adultery. The terms "emotional divorce" etc. do not let that term give you the impression that dating while separated is condoned by MB in any way.

Women who will date a separated (not divorced) men are unwise gamblers - they are women who do not use their senses (same goes for opposite genders). Look at how many "separated" men and women there are in the affair section - what single person would be wise to start dating someone in that situation? How many OWs are dating "separated" men while those men are actively in contact with their wives who are trying to work out their marriage?

A smart marriage-minded woman, a future buyer, is one that would say GOODBYE when asked out on a date by a legally separated man.

I know you don't think tis applies to you - but part of MB means that we try and acknowledge that we are not 'special/unique' and that general rules are followed for good common sense reasons - people who are not divorced and are dating, make poor choices in partners - often jumping out of the pan and into the fire. Aside from trust issues, this is why affairages seem to always fail. They fail because the person never took the time to grow, learn, and heal.

If you had taken time after your divorce, dated around, worked on healing, then perhaps you would not be in the position of trying to fix a broken dating relationship with the thought of marriage in mind. You would see that this is a poor choice for marriage and that would be that. But you're clinging onto something that should never have been.

KL, I think you did start dating too soon, and unfortunately the woman you got involved with is not the best of matches for you, primarily because of the issues with her son, which will not be easily resolved.

I think it is wise to take a break. The feelings you have are normal - you became attached to her, and it is hard to lose that comfort of a relationship. But I would say that all you have to do is think back to how things were when you were on the verge of hitting her son, and that should remind you just how toxic that situation was.

You can always cherish what you had and what you learned from it, but you do not need to be a glutton for punishment and go back to a bad situation. Spend some time alone, then go out and date casually for a while to see what's out there. You;ll be surprised how many quality women are out there, you just need to sift through the turkeys first .

AGG

Stop makin excuses!
Dont use Dr Harley's definition of a state of withdrawal as an excuse for your adultery!

Nobody wants to hear about your excuses of having an open marriage for the "good of the kids".

You are a wayward and still in wayward fog

Using your wayward excuses, everyone who has an affair is justified because they are "emotionally divorced".

Hopefully your children won't be damaged because of the horrible examples you and your wife how been for them

What a way to twist Dr. Harley's words!

Yes, this is a twisting!

LOTS of people have been in a state of emotional divorce but still chosen to be faithful to their vows. Look at all the affair situations represented on this site. I will promise you that the wayward husbands and wives typically were NOT meeting the emotional needs of their faithful spouse back home. And yet, typically, those betrayed husbands and wives were faithful.

A "state of emotional divorce" is a pretty horrendous thing to do to your husband or wife. The whole point of Marriage Builders is to learn that there is a better way to handle this, a way to be a Buyer and fix what is wrong together to make the marriage liveable.

What exactly did you do in those four years? Did you work your tail off to save your marriage? Did you succumb to it's too much work and just withdraw yourself? How did you demonstrate to your children their family was the most important thing on the planet and you did everything you could to save it?

If you ex-wife was in an affair how did you bust it up? Did you attempt to save your ex-wife from her own affair, or did you sit back and just watch it happen?

If you married at college and your oldest children are in their 20's that means your first marriage was many years in the making. What exactly did you do to save it?

Again ... so many redflags about what your character is ... suggests you need to be on your own. I make all my judgements based off of reading thousands and thousands of threads...each one almost identical to you relationship.

Alis said it correctly ... this situation is not unique or special. Your ex-girlfriend and you follow the almost exact pattern of every other relationship when both parties are freeloaders/renters/wayward/thoughtless. Your patterns of behavior are spot on.

Dr. Harley advocates what to get out of "withdrawal" ... he advocates winning the other spouse over through EN's and no Lovebusters. He doesn't say go out and commit adultery. He says one spouse must lead the other spouse out of their present stage.

Thanks for your thoughts alis and AGG. Alis, I did not know that Dr. Harley considers dating while separated to be adultery. I'm bothered by that.

Can you please help me understand something? I'm confused by the legality of marriage vs. the morality of it. It's difficult to accurately express my confusion in words without sounding like I'm disagreeing with you or trying to defend myself. Please realize I am not disagreeing with you, only trying to understand something.

When someone says that dating while still married is adultery, even though legally it isn't, then it seems that they're applying moral standards to marriage. (Because if they were applying legal standards, then they would say dating is ok, at least where I live.) In other words, there's a higher standard for defining adultery than what's written in local laws.

If so, then what is the standard used for defining the states of marriage & divorce? Is it a moral standard that's higher than the laws? Or is it the legal standard. What I'm confused about in my case of dating-while-separated is that the legal standard is used to define marriage & divorce, while a moral standard is used to define adultery.

I hope that made sense, and again, my point is not to defend myself, only to try to explain something that confuses me in hopes that you or someone else can help me clear up. Thanks.

I agree with your question implying that it's unwise to date someone that's separated but not yet divorced. Based on what I went through, if I was tempted to date a separated woman, I absolutely would not; even if she was divorced but only recently, I still wouldn't want to date her because of the emotional roller-coaster I was on the first year after my divorce. But experience is everything, and I had to experience it to really understand it. If I had read 3 years ago what you wrote above, I don't think I would've gotten it.

I'm sorry I came across snobishly, appearing to think that I'm 'special/unique.' I'm here (on this forum) because my first marriage failed, and I want to learn how not to repeat that. There's a lot of great stuff on this website, and many times I think to myself, "if only I had known that, things might've been different." In reading other posts, I became more aware of the concept of taking time to heal after divorce, and it brought to the surface something that I occasionally feel - that I should've taken some time for myself.

So far, every bit of advice I've seen here unanimously says that I should take some time. I'm very grateful for that because before a month or two ago (or whenever my first post was), I was feeling a little tension. My relationship has gone on long enough (3 years this Oct.) that the length of time carries with it a sense of commitment. I feel a sense of relationship responsibility that says I can't just leave because I need to work on myself; that feels selfish to me. Tension exists between a need to work on myself vs. the sense of relationship commitment due to the length of time I've been in it. I'm not sure if I'm making sense here, but suffice to say, with the advice I'm receiving here, it's helping me see that the relationship break my girlfriend and I are currently taking is good, and I should continue with it in spite of the fact that I miss her.

AGG, thanks for the post. Your advice to think back to the toxic situation is exactly why we're taking a break. Although I think the break will be good so that I can be on my own for a while, the real reason is that I told my girlfriend I have to back off because I'm afraid of another toxic situation occurring and possibly escalating. The unpredictability of that first situation has troubled me a lot, and I can't ignore it.

Thanks for your thoughts. I've read several of your other posts, primarily on Opt's thread, and I sense that you've been around the block a few times and have good advice.

The first step you need to take is to write a letter to your ex wife apologizing for your affair.
The second step is to apologize to your children and tell them your adultery was wrong. Don't make excuses.

Oops, looks like I cross-posted with several others who don't agree with what I wrote. Sorry. Hopefully the post I just made will explain some of my confusion. Please help me understand.

I can handle the 2x4's, but they don't really help me try to figure things out.

You don't come off as a snob Part of human nature is that we tend to think our situations cannot possibly be understood or duplicated by others - and that will find any justification to support this.

Yes, MB applies a "moral" standard to marriage. Divorce is divorce in the eyes of the law - but the law also keeps out of the bedroom in the vast majority of instances. I worked in law enforcement for years, so I can safely say that the legal definition of many things does not necessarily reflect positive moral standards. Remember, the law is emotionless. The law does not care how one feels, heals, or grows from beyond that instance in court.

Dating while still married is considered adultery by MB standards. Some states also have a "no paramour" clause until final divorces. So, morals according to the law also depend on where you live. In some states, it's not adultery. In some states, it is. In some places, you are married until your spouse dies.

So, MB follows the simple rule that if one is still married, they are married. End of. And legal separation exists for the purposes of marriages and families being restored, thus avoiding the legal hardships and use of court systems - not to give someone the green light to date others. However, people do use it in that manner.

But again, the law does not care about feelings or one having future success in relationships beyond that legal circumstance. So, food for thought.

I guess the answer here is - yes, the law is on your side. But is it REALLY on your side? Which method seeks to help you grow as a person and learn how to deal with relationships in the most effective manner possible, and which does not?

Dating while seperated IS legally considered adultery in the state I live in. Just an fyi.

If you have no concept of marriage then just shack up your whole life.
The law said it was okay to own a black slave 200 years ago too