Not from MB, but similar to the Agreement in the MB workbook, (difference is that it spells out specifically the instances of verbal abuse (i.e. specific SDs, DJs, AOs) so the person can "see" what they've been doing/saying). Also includes a commitment to care for one another, etc. and I used MB language throughout.

This was a last-ditch effort to show him what is going on, in hopes of change.

He signed it this morning.

Yes. Yes. Yes! Thanks again, NED.

Oh, so you're doing plan Zhamila, not MB?

Why?

To answer Ned's question, the turn-about was about the time that each of us acknowledged that we didn't "have a better plan" and started using MB. There are still little things here and there that could be "problems" but negotiation, speaking up when one has a complaint, and recognizing that the proper way to address a complaint is to listen and care that your spouse is complaining and do something about it, makes "problems" into "little things".

We were anchored out with some friends the other day, and were joking about how things are always *my* fault. Can you imagine? CWMI (which stands for "canwemakeit" Zhamila) at fault? Lol. One of the guys, who I don't know very well, was astonished at the conversation. Everyone else has known each other for over a decade. He said, "If I tried to tell my wife something was her fault, she'd hit the roof! Hit me with a frying pan!" I just said, "Its been going on so long, who cares? i know where my faults lie, and so does he. And I know he knows. So what he says in the moment doesn't carry near the weight of what he does in the long run."

Getting nasty is one thing...saying, "Well, if you hadn't...then I wouldn't have..."

All it takes is a "Really? Is that your stance?" and poof...we're off to solution-land.

So, I was 'honest' last night. I told him how I am getting sicker every day, and more emotionally distressed (can't concentrate at work, etc). I asked him if he'd be willing to stay at his mom's for a week so I could have some breathing room.

He said absolutely NOT. I asked why not? He said he didn't want to, he wouldn't be kicked out.

So I asked him if he heard what I said, how I'm feeling. He got testy, started to raise his voice and told me he's sick of having to "repeat" what I say. I said (calmly) that I just wanted to make sure I said the same thing he heard. So he acknowledged that I am physically getting sicker and emotionally getting more distressed.

I told him I hope he cares about me enough to help figure something out. No answer.

If the shoe were on the other foot, and someone told me that my presence distressed them so much they were getting SICK, I would feel TERRIBLE and do whatever necessary to accommodate them. Why is he not able to see this? NED, if I've said too much, let me know. I'm trying every step of the way - trying to think of anything to turn this around.

**edit**

If you do want to turn this around, stop changing the plan to your own version.

Zhamila hon, I think that's awesome, setting the example in love. Making your request and letting it sit, instead of demanding an outcome. How do you feel about some light, fun UA? Not as a way of walking on eggshells, more like staying who you are regardless of the situation. If you all make it work without a separation, it sets you up for success. Or if you go to Plan B, you will have some good routines going that you can continue with.

cwmi, I think that's so cool that you all rationally decided to use the tools together. Others I've heard usually have had some sort of crisis event. So I'm happy your kids didn't have to go through something like that. I don't understand how something worded with more words becomes not MB? Like for example Plan B letters, it isn't a form letter, they are very individual to the folks' situation, folks post them and talk about them.

If she used the LBQ to list LBs, then the agreement in the workbook is not only adequate, but complete.

The agreement is not the place for enumerating one's sins, and you should know that, Ned. She apparently presented him with her self-made document enumerating all the ways in which he was a jerk, then expected him to sign it?!? I cannot imagine a signed "Verbal Abuse Agreement" being well-received in even a great marriage.

The Agreement is a separate part of MB from the LBQ. The agreement is solid and unending, while the stuff on the questionnaires and weekly checklists are malleable and changing due to current circumstances. That she apparently thought the original agreement, as written by Dr. Harley, was inadequate for her "special circumstances" tells me she believes she has a better plan than MB. Well, good for her. Then she only has herself to blame when she fails.

CWMI, what is in this agreement Zhamila's husband signed that is different from Marriage Builders? I would think any agreement to acknowledge and overcome abuse is a positive step.

markos:
I would like to see the actual wording of this document. Why not just use the LBQs? This sounds like a way of writing her own LBQ, which she requested (demanded?) to be signed by him in admission. Plus, the whole doing it to educate him in his wrongs...what a DJ to say that a person needs to sign a document in order to "see" how wrong they are!

I think going to AM is acknowledgment enough, and shows effort to overcome it...and while it's not long, he does have a couple of weeks of success there. I don't see Dr. Harley instructing spouses to sign documents admitting that they commit LBs, just an agreement to eliminate them.

I have been following your thread and have to say you are your own worst enemy. As CWMI notes, you are not following a Marriage Builders Plan, you are making up your own plan and holding it out as Marriage Builders. How's that working for you? As far as I can see, it's not.

If you handed me something called a Verbal Abuse Agreement and demanded that I sign it,it would automatically put me on the defensive and would not be receptive to what you have to say.

I quoted the above because I agree with your DH, why should he have to leave? If this situation is so unbearable for you that it's making you sick, then leave. You can leave just as easily as he can.

Brit it's her home, and they are her kids, how does that benefit the family for her to pack them up and remove them from their home? If you re-read When to Call It Quits I it says when there are kids, let the H leave, only if the kids are grown and gone then it's better for the W to leave.

Shouldn't he leave until he gets his anger under control? Is he the one abusive, or is she?

The first step toward him overcoming his anger is to take responsibility for it.

If he's not willing to say "This is wrong, this is intolerable, I don't expect you to put up with this," then, yes, she would probably have to make plans to leave.

We're not talking about being unhappy because of leaving socks out or a glass of milk on the counter. If I'm reading correctly, he is (somewhat reluctantly) taking anger management, because he can't get his angry outbursts under control.

I guess the question is, does he want to make things safe for her, or not? If he's still saying "If you are unhappy, then you leave," then he is expecting her to tolerate his angry outbursts, which sounds exactly the opposite of Dr. Harley's positions, to me.

Markos, I think you asked a key question that has been niggling at me the entire time I've been following this thread....IS he being abusive or is that her interpretation of it? Is SHE the one being passive aggressively abusive by putting every little thing her husband does or doesn't do under a microscopie, painstakingly picking it apart bit by bit by bit (imagine pulling the arms and legs off a fly) and then using it to further her perception that she is doing everything right and her husband is just a mean, awful ogre who isn't even willing to try.

What I'm saying is I think Z is equally responsible for not effectively communicating because she is creating her own interpretation of MB and following her own plan that seh's developed based on her interpretation of MB advice instead of truly following the MB plan as written.

That's one example of how Zhamila sets him up for failure.

Then he snooped through her journal (probably trying to figure out what his flip-flopping wife IS thinking) and she was upset by that--called it IB.

Here's another gem:
So, part of his 'abuse' is saying he doesn't like what she liked and wouldn't be enthusiastic about it. Zhamila does not seem to have figured out that he can have an opinion, too, without it being 'abusive' to have it!

Nope.

She didn't characterize those incidents as "abusive". She said they bothered her. She even wondered whether they were too small to matter.

She feels what she feels. Alot of the 2x4s in this thread are along the lines that she should feel something else. Totally not MB.

Also, she is counselling with SH who is treating this marriage as having a problem with AOs. AOs are abusive in the MB universe. That's the end of THAT.

That doesn't mean that Z is totally in the clear here. But many of the knocks she is getting are unwarranted.

Gosh, don't you wish Prisca had read something like this before she asked YOU to leave, Markos?

She is no longer coaching with SH.

The incidents I quoted are the ones she talks about. The rest of the time she just talks about vague DJs and verbal abuse. What is going on, other than these incidents? When someone complains that their spouse DJs, and then brings up them disagreeing with their choices in decor, I wonder...is THAT the DJ you were talking about?

"You're stupid and you have awful taste in curtains" = DJ

"Yeah, I don't like those curtains. I don't see me being enthusiastic about them being in our house" = NOT DJ.

If a person gets all frustrated and depressed because their spouse doesn't like the same things...ask them what they DO like! Find some common ground. If you are dead-set on a certain item, negotiate a way for you both to be enthusiastic. Until you are, no go!

It is also 'totally not MB' to let your feelings guide you, kerala. That's why it's called a PLAN and why you need to follow it in order for it to work. Regardless of your feelings. In spite of them, often.

Dr. Harley usually takes the stance that if your spouse complains that something is demanding, disrespectful, or an angry outburst, that it is. So I would side with Zhamila: if she feels he's being abusive, he is.

That said, Dr. Harley also says that abuse usually happens from both sides, that a person married to someone who is abusive will usually tend to become abusive himself or herself. I'm sure Zhamila has engaged in her share of love busters (haven't read the whole thread). But the question is, are they both willing to eliminate these, or only her?