She told him she would like if he asked her what she was thinking. So he did. Then she wouldn't tell him.

That's crazy-making! Is it abusive? Mentally, yes, I would say it is. I don't know how Mr. Z sees it.

Thank you for weighing in, Markos. I appreciate your spot-on insight.

Thanks NED. I wondered what you would think about this.

I'll think about the lite UA - which to me means RC & SF: which we did last week (makes him happy, but I come away lonely and frustrated). Do you mean something else by lite UA?

I am having a really hard time "staying who I am" regardless of the situation. I mean, when I'm alone with my kids, I am myself. But as soon as he walks in the room, I get all balled up inside.
I'll try.

Again Markos, your quick grasp of the situation is very helpful.

He continues to say that his AOs are 'no big deal,' that I am blowing everything out of proportion.

Even without the AOs (we're on Day 15 now...although he raised his voice to me last night), I am still having a hard time. Does that count?

Like the time I quietly whispered to him our code word for "I think you're looking at that waitress. Please don't." - He screamed at me in the restaurant, "I AM NOT STARING AT THAT WAITRESS!!!!" He said I was falsely accusing him, which is a Disrespectful Judgment. So, apart from the anger, the issue has never been resolved. He insists that I'm being disrespectful when I try to address behavior that upsets me.

So at the beginning of a 3 hour car ride, I would rather NOT tell him about my thinking he was looking at other women. I waited until there was an escape hatch for the conversation.

Anyhoo, the AOs are definitely tough...but so is the push-back when I try to get his help resolving issues. I don't want to give up but it's rather exhausting. Here's how Dr. Harley answered my letter (He is SO NICE!!)


This was back in April. Am I reading this correctly: That my H is "choosing" to keep doing things that lose my love for him?

How long does a person try? When is it ok to give up?

Thank you Kerala. Would you mind to expand on what you see in me, here?
I'd appreciate your perspective.

OMGarsh...this thread is OWN FAR!

(that's "on fire" to you non-hill-williams!)

I don't mean to keep beating the same drum, but currently (as of right now) you and Mr. Z ARE still a couple and trying to restore your M using MB, and you just wrote that you "just" had RC and SF last week...um last week? This doesn't sound like enough UA time to even come close to restoring love in the marriage.

I get that you don't enjoy the UA time and he is not meeting your need for conversation during, but as ML told me, you may not want or enjoy the UA time at first, but do it. My H top EN is SF, when he gets this need met he is quite eager to meet my needs, and I see far more effort on his part to communicate, POJA (still workin on that one) but most of all to work to make me happy. If I thought well, we did that last week, I could not possibly meet that EN for him.

What do you consider ogling women? Is he really staring? I just wonder cuz you mentioned the waitress, is it that the waitress is attractive? He kinda has to look at your waitress. I ask because me glancing at a man that my H knows I would find attractive is an LB for him. I go out of my way to avoid doing this, but I couldn't avoid looking at a waiter, so he would not be upset unless maybe I was falling out of my chair, or something absurd, needless to say I would never do that!

Also listen to this clip of Dr. Harley talking about men "gawking" at women.
Radio clip on gawking at women

Tell us what you think.

Listen to this clip of Dr. Harley explaining about men looking at other women.
Radio clip on Men Looking at Other Women

Zhamila, you do seem to be grasping for a plan, perhaps because you are unwilling to contemplate separation which IS recommended in some cases. This IMV led you to back away from where you were at two weeks ago and to give things one more shot. The problem is that you do not yet feel safe around your H, and that may be causing you to be super-sensitive to him.

Z,

I have a couple more points I'd like to make, just thoughts and things that have bothered me that I think you may want to consider.

Of course no one here wants to see you tolerate abuse. If he can't get his temper under control and stop the AO's then he should leave. I realize two weeks is not long enough for you to feel safe or to consider this problem over with for good. It is progress though, he is making an effort, so it is a good start in the right direction.

I think you are saying that you feel hurt and upset that he read your journal without your permission, this is an LB for you, and you are upset that after he read what you wrote he didn't apologize or do anything to validate your feelings. You also wrote that you talked about how much you hate him in these journals. I am still not sure it was against MB for him to read this, but I have to say, if I saw something my H had written stating how much he hated me, I would be very shocked, and hurt, and doubt very seriously if my reaction would be to validate his feelings under that circumstance.

I am just not sure that is even a reasonable expectation. I also have to say it does seem like you are picking and choosing what parts of the MB program you are interested in following. That is your choice BUT I am not sure if you can then put all the blame on your H that this is not working.

You have stated before that you are doing everything "right" in following MB, but that's not true. You have stated several times that you are very upset that he does not respond correctly to your complaints, maybe not, BUT you don't respond correctly to his either. You have written about complaints he has made, that you seem to just dismiss.

I think its a mistake for you to feel that you are doing everything right, because then you are also not open to change or suggestions you are getting from the people here.

Abuse is not OK, and it is not your fault if he can't get this behaviour under control. If that is the case then obviously it is time to call it quits. He is still there now, has been going to his classes, and has not had a AO in a bit, so why not get to work on really using the MB program, and working on what you can do to clean up your side of the street?

I am not trying to attack you Z, or suggest in any way that his AO's are your fault or acceptable. If Mr. Z was posting here I would have plenty of questions for him, but he isn't, you are. I really hope you guys can turn the corner here, and I think you have a real chance, many people post here trying to save a marriage, but the spouse is not interested or willing. Try to give Mr. Z some credit where it is due, for his efforts and progress.

If this is true, then there isn't much progress to give him credit for, tismeagain.

Z, you asked me what I meant by light UA. I focused on stuff outside of the house. For us walking was good for both RC and Conversation. And going to a coffeeshop for coffee. Like others said, going to the movie isn't RC but it gives you lots of fodder for good conversation, so we did that. and country line dancing, good for affection. And We did FC, like playing soccer in the backyard, and taking the kids to the park or for a walk at the beach. Stuff you just had to "show up" to, didn't need preparation and would be hard to do wrong. It doesn't come naturally to AO on a walk or in a coffeeshop in front of others. I set us up for success as best as I could. My focus was on Good Conversation, since it was a top EN for both of us. I used to read that friends of good conversation article every day before B came home. I knew at that point I had understandably become the one who was a bigger danger in the marriage, the one with one foot out the door, so I kept asking myself what I would be enthusiastic about.

But you know what is special and meaningful for you two. Make it as easy as possible to get your EN for conversation met. Take a look at the RC inventory and see what would meet intimate ENs for you two.

Great suggestions NED! I like the idea of keeping it simple and they could even grab a movie from red box or whatever then discuss.

I was listening to MB radio earlier, I had a small distraction happen, but thought I did hear Dr. Harley say that if you are still living together UA time should still be a go, regardless. I will be listening again to make sure I did hear that right.

Z, skip the movie Your lovebank is so empty that you need some serious UA time.

He watched her walk around and go to other tables for about 10 seconds. In the meantime, I was sitting there waiting for it to end.



Thanks BrainHurts! Listening now.

Kerala, my heart sank when I read this. You are right.

Two weeks ago I was ready to end it, had retained a lawyer, was filing for divorce (as Steve told me to do when I couldn't go on). Then my H emailed me, "Try again?" I felt compelled, as if I "should" honor his request even though I really didn't "want" to.

When I heard Dr. Harley say (on the radio today) to the BW that he "wouldn't bat an eye if she decided to divorce her WH" but that "if she stays, she needs to start building a romantic relationship with her H," it really hit me. That's what I've done. I've checked out....but I haven't filed. This is a total wasteland.

I have GOT to 'fish or cut bait.' I must decide what I am going to do - and do it.

I guess I'm just a chicken - I wanted HIM to leave, give up, whatever so I could say that "he ended the marriage." Which is a bunch of passive-aggressive garbage. And I really thought he'd do it, since he's threatened to leave me once a week for the past 3 months. Doh!

Kerala, thank you so much for being honest and kind at the same time. I can really hear what you are saying and I appreciate your insight very much!

I AM super-sensitive around him (totally agree) and I do not feel safe around him. This means I have to get down on it and either work WITH him to create a safe environment, or separate. Spot-on.

Thanks for your response, TisMe.

Would you please remind me when I talked about this on the forum? I can't remember, and I'd like to fix it.



Thanks.

A year from now, 2 weeks or 4 weeks won't make a difference. The worst thing you can do is separate/divorce and then take him back too soon. My mom did that and it terrorized us to think we were free of my stepdad only to have him come back again. If it takes another week to get the information you need to really make it stick until you are for sure set up for success, then that's better for your family I think.

The impression I have had from the outset of your thread is not that you wanted to recover your marriage but, rather, that you wanted validation from others that your husband is a dolt and you should divorce him immediately. I do not feel you ever wanted to recover your marriage because of the way you were constantly finding fault with his very being. So, now you have it.....