Hi black_raven, I disagree with your disagreement. Unless the one person is a pschyopath or something, I think it always takes two people to end a marriage. If there's the appearance that one person did it alone, say the one person had an affair, there's always a reason for why they had the affair, and their partner probably has at least some responsibility for that. In my situation, my wife wouldn't stop seeing another man. I take partial blame for that because it took both of us neglecting our marriage to create the environment in which she felt she had to have some of her needs met outside the marriage. Again, unless the person is a pschyopath, or alcoholic, or serial cheater, or something like that, I agree with GodGiveMeStrength.

Hi KL,

We will agree to disagree then. Adultery can happen in good marriages too...do you not believe that? My ex is a serial cheater but I still think there are plenty of people who can/do single handedly nuke their marriages without any/little help from their spouses. Immaturity, drama/attention lovers, insecurity etc...doesn't have to be a psychopath.

Hi KL
I've been reading your thread. Mostly I just lurk but you have touched on an interesting issue with your girlfriend's son. I also have a 'young adult' son who struggles with the lack of a father figure in his life.

Someone on this forum made the comment a while ago that we make wiser and more considered choices of partner as we get older and our judgement is less clouded by hormones but that instead we get the baggage that comes with life. In some cases this can be logistical issues (such as living in different cities), in others it can be children as it is for you.

This is a quite separate from meeting each others ENs.

Have you been totally honest with your girlfriend about her son? How you feel when you compare him with your own children and that you are horrified at the way they interact? That you think her parenting skills are woeful? Have you talked about what will happen if he is still a problem at the age of 30 (which could happen by the way)? How he is always going to feel you took his mother away?

Once you have been completely open and honest with her about your feelings and if she still wants to be with you, you will need to try to POJA the situation with her. You may not be able to do this but it will certainly settle things one way or another.

Hi living_well, nice to meet you and thank you for your thoughts. I definitely agree with you on the baggage that comes with life. That's a good thing for me to keep in mind; I shouldn't try to compare current situations with the past. Thanks for that!

Regarding your questions,

• Yes, I've been totally honest with her. It wasn't easy though. The first time I told her that I didn't like her son was hard for her to take. I think it burst her bubble so to speak, and her reaction was similar to what a Love Buster can do. She understands now and we can talk about it without hurt feelings.
• Just to clarify, I'm only horrified the way one of her sons act. Her two sons are night and day; the second one is wonderful. I've told her that I just can't comprehend anyone treating their mother the way son #1 does. It didn't happen when I was kid, didn't happen with my own kids, and I don't know how to deal with it. She gets that.
• I haven't put it bluntly that her parenting skills are woeful, but she believes that's what I imply when I tell her how I would handle the situation. The problem is, I would've handled the situation much earlier in life so that it never would've gotten out of hand the way it has. Now that he's 15, he's much harder to deal with, and I'm not sure what she can do. In order to criticize her parenting skills, I need to be able to offer a solution, and I don't have one that's acceptable to her. Wait, actually I do and she's working on it - looking for a boarding school, but the problem with that is expense. Her ex-husband is unwilling to help out with that, and she doesn't make a lot of money. Basically, it would take dipping into her retirement fund, and she's uncomfortable with that. If you've dealt with similar parenting issues, do you have any ideas I could pass on to her? That would be awesome if you did, because we're at a real logjam on this one.
• We have talked about the potential for him being a problem later in life. That is a real possibility. I have a brother who is a prime example. Got kicked out of his home by his wife for alcoholism, went to live with my mom at age 45, and was a burden on her and my stepdad until stepdad finally kicked him out. So, yes, I understand that that's a real possibility and something to consider regarding a relationship with my girlfriend.
• Your last question is something new - him feeling that I took his mother away. Could that be an issue? Do you have experience with that? It's not something I've ever thought about. My parents divorced and remarried, and I never felt that my stepparents took my biological parents away, so I'm not sure what that's all about.

POJA does seem to offer the only way out of this dilemma. I definitely need practice though. Pepperband and others suggested trying it out in the grocery store, which we have yet to do. I know Opt has highly recommended POJA as well. Thanks again for your thoughts.

Hi black_raven, I guess I don't believe that. But I'm willing to be convinced otherwise. My intuition says that if adultery happens, then by definition the marriage is not good. I've always thought of adultery as the product of a bad marriage, not that adultery creates a bad marriage out of a good one. If the marriage is good, I don't see how a person could be so thoughtless as to have an affair, unless there's something wrong with them.

I'm no psychologist, but the traits you mention, attention lovers, insecurity, etc, could be manifestations of a personality disorder. Also, I'm using the term psychopath loosely, not according to DSM IV or V or whatever number they're up to. I think a serial cheater has a personality disorder similar to an alcoholic, and maybe attention lovers do to. Again, I don't feel that strongly about the things I've just written, and I'm open to being convinced differently.

Hi KL, I've been reading your thread and find it really interesting. I'm still learning about this stage of life, after divorce. From way out here, it sounds like Dr. H recommends breaking up because that's when you learn what being without this person is like, which would help you find the commitment within you to really be a buyer.

Or maybe you would be so relieved to be without her son. That would be good to know too. I have a brother and sister like you describe your brother in their own way, and I don't see them moving out of my parents' house of their own volition. Why would they ever?

There are some things beyond what we can do as parents. My DD16 had a friend who had a loving, involved mom, and still killed herself at 14. Maybe you could help your wife find some local resources. DD16 had a very rough time at that age and we were able to get her the help she needed, and she is back to her old self now.

It can be done and none of us are on our own. My DD16 has guy friends that age who really find themselves in JROTC, civil air patrol, basketball, coaching, or other activities like that where they are given responsibilities that reconnect them with their purpose and their strengths. Imagine having to wake up every day trying to make up for having messed up yesterday. Give him a new space for a do-over where kids are set up to succeed. At least it will give you all a common sense of purpose and he'll see you care. Especially if you get in the habit of driving him to something he cares about, you can teach him thoughtfulness in your example, without being on your own trying to fix the situation. Be her hero, I think it'll change how you see the relationship and your purpose. Set yourselves up for success, you know?

And if HDW is right and you and your gf are really not ready to be buyers, just renters, maybe the shared purpose will help you make that leap. Or give you the maturity and perspective to accept it if you find you all do prefer to be renters.

It is his behaviour you do not like, at 15 he is still unformed. Be careful how you think and express yourself. Always best to talk about your feelings so you should be saying 'your son makes me feel . .'


I don't believe that. I think the other son has learned a better coping strategy.



Great to hear you talking about your feelings, much more constructive!



The only situation you can deal with is the one you have now.


POJA is not just about 'offering solutions'. You first sit down and identify the issue(s). Yours might be 'I have a problem with the way your son talks to you' and hers might be 'I am afraid to discipline him in case he leaves and goes to his father'. Then you both come up with creative ways to resolve the problem until you find something you are both happy with. It might take days and days


Yes I have had lots of parenting issues. I don't honestly think boarding school is going to solve anything as it will just make the issues less visible. He will simply be attracted to the worst trouble makers at school and there will be mayhem.

I have a close friend who adopted twin girls. Her husband was never really part of their lives, he was an abusive alcoholic and not interested in them. When the girls were 8, he ran off with a barmaid and she remarried when they were 12. The twins are now 18 and one appears to be ok, the other has completely derailed. She recently set fire to their house. Her problems started when her mother remarried even though he is a wonderful man because she then got less of her mother's time and attention than she needed.

For various reasons, some children need more attention than others. Your girlfriend's boy is one that needs tons. He is pushing his mother to test her love. She may be handling this poorly but neither boarding school nor the age of 18 are going to solve this. POJAing this issue would be a great learning experience for all three of you.

Hi NewEveryDay, thank you very much. I read what you wrote several times to let it sink in. I never thought of finding out what being without my girlfriend is like as a reason for breaking up; I thought of it more as a way to be on my own for a while. Those two statements might sound similar, but the difference is, in one case I'd focus on what it means to be alone, and in the other I'd focus on what it means to be without my girlfriend. May seem like a subtle difference, but I never thought of it that way. Thanks!

Also, I'm positive that being without the issues of her son would be relief. I don't need to experience that in order to know it!

Well put. My girlfriend is close to reaching the point of saying "I've done all I can." She sometimes says she can't wait for her son to turn 18 and move out. In fact, she has already been prepping him for that, telling him to start thinking about what he'll do when he turns 18 and she asks him to leave. Easier said than done though. When he turns 18, it will be very difficult for her to ask him to leave if he doesn't have anywhere to go. My mom had the same problem with my brother. It took her being away on a trip for it to happen; that's when my stepdad kicked him out. My mom was glad he did and said she probably couldn't have done it if she had not been away. Moms are like that, and my girlfriend is no different.

I really appreciate your examples of JROTC, civil air patrol, etc. I think you're exactly right, he needs to be in a controlled situation of responsibility where he can use his strengths and experience success. That's exactly what he needs, thank you for the ideas. I would love to see him turn things around. I know he has it in him, it's just a matter of finding the right environment in which he can succeed.

Thanks a lot for your thoughts. They give me some new things to think about.

You're right. I have since corrected myself to say that it is his behavior that I don't like.

You're right about that too. Having to live with his difficult sibling is causing issues for her 2nd son, and part of the reason he is so nice to his mom is because he wants to compensate for the way his brother treats her. What I mean about night and day is the way her two sons treat her. It really is night and day.

I feel that anytime I'm going to complain about something, I should have some kind of solution in mind that I can bring to the POJA table. Otherwise, it comes across as complaining. I leared that at work. I would go to my manager and complain about the way something was done, and he would always ask me, "how would you fix it?" I like the idea of having thought about solutions to a problem before bringing the problem up with someone.

So, not disagreeing with you here, just explaining why I like to have a solution in mind.

Thanks for sharing that idea, it's something to think about. The impetus for sending him away is not to get rid of him, it's to find an environment that's best for him. The reason we thought of boarding schools is because of his success at summer camp. He's been away 4 weeks during the last 3 summers and thrived. The camp counselors say he is great and have no problems with him.

That's one of the biggest fears I have when we talk about marriage. I think my girlfriend's sons need attention. She and I also need attention (the 15 hours per week of UA). With her job and other activities, I think it would stress her out trying to meet everyone's needs. I would need to be active in her sons' lives to meet her need for Family Commitment. I'm not saying this is a red flag, but it's definitely bright orange! Definitely something to POJA, and I'll bet conflict in this area is a major contributor to the high divorce rate for blended families.

Thanks for your thoughts. Sorry to read in your signature line that you're recently divorced. I hope you're doing ok.

Humans are capable of sin. It only takes one moment of weakness to step over the line and commit adultery which is why boundaries are talked about so much. Stress, grief, excitement, loneliness (due to physical separation ie military deployment)...can all lead to a temporary lapse in judgement of an otherwise 'good' spouse. How often this happens? IDK but it can and does. Whether it is sex or any other 'bad' behavior, things do happen in life where a person can get caught up in the moment and either think he won't get caught or he isn't thinking straight for whatever reason.



Could be...depends on the degree I suppose. What you and I think is abnormal, others may think is normal. All people have some degree of wanting attention and have insecurities though. I don't know if I'd consider being an alcoholic a personality disorder. There are a lot of things that people are weak for/addicted to and I wouldn't label them with a personality disorder.

Anyway, good luck with your gf. Her teenage son may be a PITA but he's still a kid and lacks maturity among other things.

Nope, that's not how POJA works on MB. It's a negotiation not a complaint. You have no idea how you are going to solve the problem when you start, you have a blank piece of paper. Actually you have no idea what the real problem 'is' at the beginning because you have to start by both honestly saying what it is that is really troubling you. For some people defining that is the hardest part. Read up on it on it on this site. It is a fabulous tool for relationships (different in the workplace).


Oh yes thank you for asking. Life is totally amazing. I may not have been able to save my marriage but I have learned so much. Funnily enough it was the failure of POJA that was the end for me. We were working with Jennifer and he just snuck off and broke the agreement we so carefully had worked out (he wanted to buy a house and I did not).

KL,

Dr. Harley says that in good marriages, complaints are welcomed!!

He makes a distinction between complaints and criticisms (disrespectful judgments). A complaint is something like "It bothers me when you eat popcorn that way." A criticism is "Good husbands should take out the trash." Complaints focus on the facts of what is done, or not done, and what are the effects on my feelings. Criticisms add a value judgment, a statement about the "correct" perspective on how things are supposed to be.

Here's the secret to happiness in relationships, for men: welcome your wife's complaints, and address them. Most of the time, the problem is that the wife is not happy. Most of the time, the husband's preferred solution is for her to feel different, look at the situation differently, stop complaining.

It is good practice to show up with a solution or two to suggest.

It is bad practice to not welcome complaints that don't come with a suggested solution. Many times you won't know what to suggest, and you need your husband or wife's ideas. Read through Dr. Harley's Four Guidelines to Successful Negotiation again, and you'll find that brainstorming solutions doesn't actually come until step 3. In fact, sometimes my wife can be offended and hurt if I jump into that step too soon.

So, don't treat your wife or girlfriend like your boss treated you at work. A complaint, particularly about emotional needs, may be completely irrational with no solution immediately apparent -- and if you want to have a good relationship, then you are going to have to treat it respectfully and address it.

You'll notice that POJA is the goal and sounds great. POJA is a noun. FGSN is a verb. FGSN is the process for getting there.

Complaining in marriage:


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8115_prob.html


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8111_quit.html

Oh, and if you like your Marriage Builders in a Pepperband flavor:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2392578#Post2392578

Another newsletter from Dr. Harley, about complaining:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2318590#Post2318590

I see your point. It sounds as if there are at least 2 reasons affairs can happen:

• loss of love due to unmet needs in marriage
• momentary loss of judgment in spite of needs being met in marriage

neither of which are reasons to justify the affair. That 2nd one is scary.

I noticed in your signature that you too are fairly recently divorced. I hope you're also doing ok.

Well I guess I have some learning to do. It feels odd to not try to come up with a fix to the problem ahead of time. I can see your point though, about not necessarily knowing what the real problem is until you start talking about what's bothering you. I believe that. Thank you!

Hi Markos, thanks for your thoughts. Firstly, I want to thank you for including the link to What Marriage Builders is all about in your signature line. I've listened to that several times, and I love it. Sometimes I get swirled around thinking about too many different MB principles at once trying to fit them all together, and re-listening to that broadcast helps to keep my eye on the goal.

Thanks for providing this distinction. It takes some getting used to the idea that I heard somewhere else on one of these forums that complaints should be thought of as opportunities to improve the relationship. Regarding the nagging-wife stereotype - do you think that's more of the husband not welcoming a complaint? Or is it more of the way the complaint is registered, i.e., criticism vs. complaint?

Good point. Maybe complaints without solutions should be the preferred approach because offering a solution can be perceived as being told what to do.

I think that's the real key to handling complaints - treat them respectfully. Thank you!

And thanks for all the other links in your subsequent posts. I will definitely read them. I do like Pepperband flavor, thanks!

Whoops, not exactly.

Here's the equation explaining why affairs happen:

unmet needs + poor boundaries = affair
met needs + good boundaries = no affair
met needs + poor boundaries = affair
unmet needs + good boundaries = no affair

Does that clear it up?

Thank you. I have had that linked for two years. You may be the first person who has mentioned it to me. I am so glad you listened.

I recently relistened to that show. I am going back through the 2010 archives, having listened to all of 2006 and 2007.

That show really does boil it all down, as well as explain why Marriage Builders is unique.


Yes it does. I saw myself on that thread of Pepperband's from 2010, and I was commenting how this was new to me at the time.


Both,

but I think the word "nagging" is a disrespectful thing to say. If you find your wife's complaints disrespectful, the correct thing to do is to address her disrespect as a separate issue, and still address her complaint.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5067b_qa.html



You can always make a Thoughtful Request.

"How would you feel about drying the dishes this way ..."

You can also try Respectful Persuasion.

Dr. Harley has much to say about both of those, in Love Busters, and on this website.

By the way, it's useful to plug the following into Google sometimes:
site:marriagebuilders.com -inurl:forum words you want to search for