Exactly.

Therapy will just be 20 years of him "finding himself" (reasons why he's a selfish jerk) instead of doing the work.

If you want to waste decades on something with no end in sight, therapy is the way to go. It doesn't matter WHY he's irresponsible - he simply needs to stop.

Succinct and spot on.

reposting because I think it was missed.

Well I told him to stop.
Flat out. Stop.
I didn't suggest therapy to him.

He isn't stopping on a regular basis. I decided to give plan A a good major effort. It goes wonderfully, then he feels he's made his effort, now he deserves time off and what he does on "time off" is go and do exactly the things that are causing the issues.

I've lost a willingness to accommodate this. I have tried to reward good behavior and requested change on the "bad" behavior.

Simply, he is indeed not serious. Funnily a couple of weeks ago he was looking for me and couldn't find me and he practically went into hysterics over it and had a huge melt down.

I am at my wits end, my resentment has grown significantly. I have prepared for Plan B and expect to put it into place starting tomorrow. He wants to negotiate on continuing to do the aggravating behavior that he knows is causing hurt. As in, he is asking me to be quiet about it, accept it and move forward. I'm not going to do that because me agreeing to it allows him to backslide on the agreements we made about what he needs to do to recover things.

Would you mind posting the Plan B letter you plan to send? Or have the vets already gone over it for you?

Ellie, I second karma, please post your Plan B letter. Your LB$ is sounding woefully low, you are sounding depleted.

Do you have all of your ducks in a row for Plan B?

I agree Plan B is definitely warranted. You admit your resentment is growing. Plan B will slow this, and if marital recovery is ever on the cards, it makes it easier having less resentment. Continue as you are now, and the resentment may be too big to overcome. If marital recovery is not on the cards, you know you gave it your all, and you have already started to heal your wounds without incurring new ones from the wayward.

Well done on doing Plan A, we all understand the effort it takes. Know that you are doing the best for your marriage, and for yourself.

Your WH is cake-eating. As it sounds like your LB$ is draining, and you are understandably tiring of his waywardness, enter Plan B. Show WH what divorce will look like, and allow yourself time to heal and grow, regardless of him.

I think its time for Ellie. Plan B.

I didn't start Plan B yet. I haven't written a love letter.

He is going on a business trip on Tuesday and will be gone for about 2 weeks.

He is very busy preparing and out of the house a lot. I tried to ask him some pertinant questions but he is evading answering and when I ask him again he says sorry, he is very busy and his head is not focused, would i please ask him again!

and i have asked so many times that I feel i am being screwed with so I try to just tell him, ok I will take a short break because I feel frustrated and he says, what set you off THIS time?!!

tbh, I feel so angry and hurt and what appears to be deliberate malicious ignoring and stupidity being directed at me that I would rather hit him over the head with something than write him a love letter. It wouldn't bother me at all to just disappear and refuse to answer him for the whole trip he is taking and I am mad enough to do it without any explanation or love or requests for anything.

I am pretty angry atm, so maybe I need a few days of quiet before I can build up enough good will to write a letter to him.

Do you have an intermeiary in place? Do they understand their role?

Ok. I am back.

I did Plan B.

Also I exposed that girl to her husband. now my husband is mad at me for "trying to ruin her marriage".

So what I hear coming out of him at this point it this:

CONS:

-he is mad and disgusted with my horrible behavior for exposing OW 2 or whatever she is.
-he is tired of talking about "the past" I think rugsweeping.
-he says he will make his own choices. he will hear me and listen to my opinions but then he will make his own choices. His choices haven't been so great so I am not impressed.

PROS:

-He wants to move forward and really likes the marriage builders principals. He feels very strongly that what broke us down was how we negotiate and communicate. He feels if we follow these principals, our relationship will improve massively.

-he apologized and said he is sorry. ( tbh, he feels hostile to me and resentful because he added he can't cahnge the past.. anger blah blah)

In terms of OC, the verdict is still out on that. I read and listened to Dr. Harley on this. For my own self, I totally agree. For the child... my husband is struggling with turning his back on the child. I personally don't feel that it is right to try and force no contact, but we have not sorted this yet. exOW and her husband are still together and no one is really happy about the situation. All of us are trying to negotiate a compassionate decision.

I am being effected on this, because I grew up without my father in a step family and was never allowed to have any contact with him as I was growing up. He died soon after I was an adult. My step father was the enforcer of this due to his fear my mother would leave him and go back to my father. She never wanted to go back, and she allowed my step father to dictate terms.

I don't know if that was right. I have some doubts obviously, so this current situation has put me into a state of pain for myself on a variety of levels. I feel very ambiguous. I would loved to have known my father better.


Anyway, I feel that probably my husband will really learn the marriage b uilder's principals. I don't feel that I have talked enough about the affair and such. I don't really feel bad about exposing ow2 because she is shady.

Husband I barely talk about what he did. It hangs over us. I can see he VERY much wants to just move ahead. I don't personally want to know loads of details. They feel too "hot" to me. Deeply upsetting. He gets upset and impatient and says I am talking too much about it and he is tired out on it.

Maybe we both have reached some limits on it.

Any advice here? Should I pull back again since he doesn't really seem compassionate to me and is blaming me and angry.. or should I say, ok, enough talk about the bad stuff for now and move forward with marriage builder things?

Yes ... Plan B ... until he is repentant he is not safe with you.

False Recovery is here for you ...

1) He still blames your for his adultery
2) He wants to sweep it under the rug
3) He is hostile to answer all your questions
4) He is unwilling to go NC for life with OW#1.

This is bad, bad, very bad and will only get worse.

This man has a huge pile of chit to clean up and he wants to run away (into other women's arms), wants you to clean up his mess, and wants no accountability. It reminds me of the waywards who use pretty little catch phrases, "Life is a mystery, it should be lived, and not understood" ... as a way to hide behind all his irresponsibility. Geesh is so wayward ... you are not safe with this man.

You have a large, grown man boy acting like a 16 year old who just knocked-up his girlfriend. He is an adult and needs to clean up his mess in an adult way ... not with mommy (you) ... or any other enablers.

Go to Plan B and let him clean up his mess. You don't have to file for divorce yet ... you just need to get out of his way to hit rock bottom.

Please read. False recoveries can hurt worse than Ddays.
False Recovery
False Recovery:need voices of experience

wanted to add, his thing about talking about it, HE feels we talked about it enough, and instead of talking now, take actions to change.

Ok, will ready the false recovery stuff then come back.

Yes. I feel afraid to talk anymore about it because he gets angry.

Tell me this please: what is an acceptable limit in terms of discussion? he says all he hears is me beating him down and he doesn't see where it is helping. He says changing actions and how we treat each other is what is going to help.


Essentially, he is telling me he has heard enough and talking about it more is aggrivating rather than allowing things to calm down enough to allow us to move ahead.

I am not sure what I should be seeing here. I really doubt he will ever say to me that he feels it is ok for me to talk about it as much as I feel I need to.. and I am wondering if it is the way I am coming across... hostile, devastated, blaming... is it possibly my expression of how i feel that is really the problem?

I see recommendation to go back into Plan B, and you could be right, but before I do, I need to sort through this more.

This what you SHOULD NOT be seeing:


I second the motion of getting into a dark plan B. Of course you are hostile, devestated and blaming. He is still foggy, un-remorseful and just wants you to leave him alone so he doesn't have to change. I don't know how long your plan B was but I am so sorry that you broke it when he was not worth it. You must be emotionally drained as it's obvious it wasn't long enough. Get yourself dark again

Ellie, it really is time for YOU to get serious. Your H has never shown an ounce of remorse and you give him chance after chance. You need to get into a Plan B (I don't think you ever were in a real one because he was able to contact you which IS NOT PLAN B.)

It should take only a few days to prepare. Read the link in my sig. You need to kick him out of your home, change all your contact details so he can't reach you and you need to ban people from passing third party messages.

You need to create a WH free universe and you needed to do it about three months ago.

It really is time to stop blaming him for your lack of action. You know the sane thing to do is get into Plan B.

When you have read the info, come BACK here for step by step instruction AND POST YOUR PLAN B LETTER HERE.



No one cares what the wayward thinks.



You've already given him the MB conditions and he's already refused to do them. What else is there to 'sort out'?

Doing whatever you feel like is not the MB plan, it is Plan Ellie.

The MB Plan says you should have been in Plan B months ago, three weeks after he did not take action to fulfill all MB conditions or show remorse.

If you want to do MB, then line up a REAL Plan B.

If you want to do Plan Ellie, then you are the expert there.

This could go either way

1) If you have sat down and he answered all your questions, the amount of detail you needed, and you feel you have it all out there, then "YOU SHOULD NEVER BRING UP THE ADULTERY AGAIN."

2) If he has trickeled truthed you, you feel he hasn't answered all your questions, and is now getting mad because you are still brow beating him for more information, then "RUN FOR THE HILLS".

If #2 is your answer, the only way to get past the trickle truth is to get a polygraph set up ASAP.

Otherwise you are living with an unrepentant wayward husband who will destroy you in the end, and this is a total false recovery.

Ellie, what were your conditions to stop Plan B? Were you ever in full NC with your WH?

I was in full NC.

My conditions were

to do MB principles.
give me access to his accounts
jettison that possible becoming OW#


I didn't know really what to do about the child. WH is currently avoiding the situation. Child support has been set up, that is to be paid. He is not going over to see it and he is not talking about it. He is not wanting any custody of it and is avoiding visitation. I am honestly afraid to insist on NC. I get the feeling that this is something he and I will have to manage on an ongoing basis.

Other than that...I haven't really been digging into the affair details. I mean I am not sitting around asking him to tell me more. I feel I understand what happened.

What he has now been coming back to me on is a lot of resentment at me for getting upset at him. I mean, I try not to slide into abusive pestering. I am fairly calm these days.

Specifically he is witholding and giving me a lot of silence. When I ask about it, he tells me that HE is not ready to communicate with me on any deeper levels because of "all the things you have done."

What I did was:

- expose ow #2 to her husband and when she got mad at me and attacked me I told her her for it. WH husband said I tried to destroy her life and marriage. My response was she should focus on her own life and marriage and get out of MINE!

- I consistently and persistently insisted to WH that she be out of the picture

- he found the keyloggers

- when I found out about the affair, etc... I got pretty upset and smacked him around for it and about every 2-3 months when the subject came up ( me triggering I guess) I wanted OW#1 GONE GONE GONE because for a while he still communicated with her.

- I will admit I LB'd a lot over it and I guess when he would get ugly with me and disappeared for days or was sarcastic to me, I would get even more upset and persist in trying to call his cell phone. which he refused to answer and so I defaulted to sending him upset emails. Like 50 in a 2-3 day period. Most of those emails were 1-2 line complaints and they were not very nice.


I have not done anything else.

I am not for passing responsibility for my actions to someone else, but I honestly would never have been upset with him for the affairs if he hadn't had one/them. Uusally I am very even tempered and not particularly demanding.

We had a discussion last night and he was going on how awful I had been and couldn't I just accept how he feels and how he doesn't want to communicate and couldn't I just give him some peace and some time to get over my bad behavior. I told him "my bad behavior?!" and said to him that I felt an affair, a baby.. disrespecting that I feel hurt and walking all over me was kind of worse than telling OW#2 husband that she was trying to have innapropriate contact with MY husband..

Which is why I am back here. I am kind of angry today. I don't feel I can write another Plan B love leter today. I feel disheartened.

I feel like he has pretty much said I am not worth much to him. I feel like Plan B won't even matter to a man who is telling me he doesn't want to talk to me anyway. He just wants to be in the same room, not talking much until HE feels up to doing more.

My knee jerk reaction is to tell him to take all the time he needs, then go dark.

I will come back with a letter once I calm down, in the next day probably. I don't feel very loving to him at all right now, just angry, hurt and depressed.

But that's not up to him. Yes, you should be taking action to change your marriage, but you can't proceed until you've put this behind you. What questions do you have that he hasn't adequately answered?

I am concerned that he wants to dodge anything that may be painful for him to deal with in the fallout from this affair.