Do you feel she is being open and honest and transparent right now...

As far as the past, it doesn't sound like you are looking for any information that would help you and your wife avoid a previous affair...

I feel she is being open and honest about current events.

Isn't the past a good indicator of the future? My approach is that if she is not willing to tell me the whole truth about the past, she is more than likely going to lie to me as she see's fit in the future.

I'm sorry if this has already been asked and answered, but can you do the online program or MB coaching?

Yes, we have been meeting with Steve Harley via telephone for several months.

My ww hates every call. The first few months she would sit on the couce and not say a word. She finally started to talk, but after each call she tries to convince me that we don't need anyones help. We can do it ourselves.

THG12,

My approach is that if she is not willing to tell me the whole truth about the past, she is more than likely going to lie to me as she see's fit in the future.

And also important if she has not come clean with you then she is still lying to you.

God Bless
Gamma

Doormat, can you expand on this? Do you feel this is true for ALL WS's or mainly WW's? I don't know if you are familiar with my sitch, but I have been trying to get my WH on the recovery train for 5 months now so I'm curious about this statement.

Thanks, RQ

Not knowing the truth will leave you with unanswered questions that will still be there 30 years later.

Your GPa, whether it was his idea, GMa's idea, or both, they realized that to recover they needed to move far away post dday.

It sounds like youre heading for a marriage that's just limping along.

Whether its moving away or not, you need to get yourself a clear plan. A plan that lays out what you are going to do to make her happy and the plan for the things she needs to do.

The heavy lifting is to be done by her. She has unload every detail you want. She has to agree to making you happy. she has to want a better marriage.

My wife understands what she created. She fully is aware of the damage done by her. She knows the burden is on her to make things right. She has not waivered from this one iota. I gave her the choice on dday.

Any deviation from the things I expected would have a clearly defined result: Im leaving, taking the kids, and she'd get nothing but the fancy clothing he bought her.

The half-azzed recovery you are mired in stinks.

To me it doesn't sound like your wife has kept any significant details from you. She has identified her affair partner and the means of contact and the circumstances that led to the affair. She may not remember all the exact details of every single contact. That is quite normal, and you will sabotage your own recovery if you expect her to have a flawless memory about it after all this time.

STOP BRINGING IT UP. Dr. Harley's advice is to stop bringing up the affair unless there's some piece of information you need that would shed light on the extraordinary precautions you two need to take now.

You keep bringing it up not because some small details of the past didn't add up, but because your environment is triggering you to constantly remember the affair.

There were some small details of my wife's confession to me that did not add up. I never brought those up to her, I simply put two and two together and moved on. It was insignificant for recovery. Recovery involved us falling in love together. Not me tying her to the rack and extorting a novel-level detailed confession from her.

If you require this kind of level of detail from her, then you will never recover, and I think for your sake you need to divorce her and move on. Plus for her sake, because if you keep acting like this you will be hurting and punishing this woman forever, and women do not have the stamina to take that kind of abuse.

We have established that your environment is triggering you to remember the affair, and you are responding by breaking the guidelines for recovery and bringing it up again. You need to get out of that environment. You are obsessing over things and not acting rationally, and I am wondering if you have considered antidepressant medication? You might be able to get a grasp of clarity with it for a few months to be able to decide what you want to do, whether to pursue recovery or to pursue a single life.

Here is one take on things:

My ww likes to move on. She doesn't like to look back, that is a waste of time. Her approach has been, I am doing what I am told. Which isn't giving me the warm fuzzy's. I really don't want a wife that is a puddle of remorse, but I am looking for someone that has taken responsibility for her actions and managing the recovery process.

I get caught in the, she is supposed to be driving the bus and fall into rather sour moods when she isn't. This has a domino effect. We end up in a bad spot.

Besides wanting to move forward my ww isn't a problem solver. She doesn't spend much time finding options and doesn't really spend time researching answers to problems. She is extremely bright, but problem solving hasn't interested her in the past. That is where I come in... Master Problem Solver. Very good at it.

WW must learn to get into information gathering mode. WW also does not like criticism, of any kind. So by not moving forward it limits the possibility of criticism. Again, recovery to date has been led by external sources, which is not working. WW must take ownership of the recovery process.

Example: Student. Two attitudes. Student 1: Comes to class, tell me what to do and I will do it. Student 2: Takes the ball and runs with it. Hunger for knowledge. Which attitude will succeed at recovery?

Both ww and bs must be in learning mode for the relationship to work. When given advice - do what your told attitude misses the burning desire. I will fix this... no matter what - attitude. Knock me down and I will get up and come at you like a spider monkey approach. ww should practice asking questions and not getting defensive.

Guys tend to make it from week to week on events (eg. camel). Women on the other hand want 'the' regular touch. What have you done for me lately (eg. enter regular providing for animal here). If that caring does not happen - disconnection. Negative slope.

WW is working in a fear of loss mode. But that doesn't cut the mustard. She must be in a pursuit of gain mode. How to make that switch? That is the $100K question.

For me - the problem seems to be a sense of entitlement. I need to become a student of ww. Know what she likes, dislikes and work to meet her EN's. I cannot bring up the affair. Ever again. OK, OK I get that now. We have to be clear with each other what triggers memories and work to remove those triggers. If that means selling the house and moving, so be it. I must make it so that my ww looks forward to spending the rest of our lives together.

When I continue to bring up the affair as a method to prove why I am suffering it gets in our way and starts the domino effect. This leads to 2.5 hours on the telephone with Steve at 6:00 AM in the morning. My apologies to his 7:00 AM appointment.

True only for unfaithful wives. If your husband has spent the last five months unapologetic for his affair, get the @#$* out of there until he is willing to do whatever it takes to recover with you.

Straight forward message. Dr. Harley doesn't like his first or middle name. Identify and remove triggers. Don't try to tough it out.

This clip focused on affair that is still active and BS wondering what to do. Focused mostly about legal action to get custody of children.

THG,

As when we go to the doctors, did you consider a 2nd opinion? A 2nd polygraph with better more comprehensive questions?

As the road said you don't want to be dealing with this 20 or 30 years from now.

The fact that your W signed away her rights to sue really sucks too.

God Bless
Gamma

What questions would you suggest?

I am finally paying attention to the triggers. Example - Saturday we were driving from downtown to the west side of town and I had what is best described as an anxiety attack.

I have begun looking for a new job in another city. Does anyone have suggestions what to do about the triggers in the meantime?

Re-reading "Surviving an Affair". I think this is an autobiography. Even down to the lake restoration committee (BS not WW).

THG12,

Not just questions, but a new polygraph operator you select is in order. Did you get to speak with the polygrapher?

I would think a question like

"is there anything THG does not about this affair or previous affairs"

or

"is there anything of a sexual nature you have not revealed to THG"

Would capture all possible indiscretions possibly including financial etc.

God Bless
Gamma

Why? Is there a working theory on why there is this difference with husbands and women?

What can BH do about this unapologetic mindset or attitude by the WW? Nothing? Is it their pride or ego that prevents them from showing any remorse?

Is it because they do not want to be honest with themselves about the hurt they caused to their H and children?

Should BH have a boundary to deal with this?

Two questions (revising your verbiage):
Q: Why the double-standard for recovery with an unfaithful husband vs. an unfaithful wife?
A: Dr. Harley covers this in detail in "Surviving An Affair" and the latest version of "His Needs, Her Needs". Basically, men's and women's brains are wired very differently. There are two factors at play, if I understand correctly.

• Men can easily maintain multiple polygamous relationships simultaneously due to their natural tendency toward "compartmentalization". Thus the risk of allowing a man back into a marriage after an affair is much higher to the betrayed spouse than it would be with a female who typically finds multiple simultaneous sexual relationships repugnant; he is very likely to "cake-eat" unless he is extremely remorseful at the start of recovery.
• Men typically "compete" better than women. Men can live with a cake-eating spouse longer with fewer health repercussions than women can; women in too long of a "Plan A" usually exhibit decreased immune response and lowered white blood cell count within a few weeks of D-Day, while men can often go months without measurable ill effect on their health. Thus the barrier to recovery with an unfaithful wife is a bit lower than for an unfaithful husband; men compete well with other men for their wife's affection and can often win her back. Dr. Harley does not usually encourage most females to compete for their husband's affection other than an extremely short Plan A.

As a final factor, Dr. Harley's experience indicated in many radio shows is that broken-hearted remorse is usually a prerequisite to successful recovery if the unfaithful spouse is male. Conversely, he's coached many successful marriages where the wife NEVER apologized for her affair.
An apology doesn't change anything. Living your life in a manner consistent with a life-long, monogamous relationship with your spouse changes everything.


Q: "What can BH do about this unapologetic mindset or attitude by the WW?"
A: Live your life without expectations of or demands for an apology. Interpret her choice of you over her affair partner and her choice to give you Care, Protection, Time, and Honesty as an abject apology. Every day that my wife spends time with me recreationally, shares affection with me, talks to me about her hopes and thoughts, and shares intimate time with me, I'm reminded of her commitment. Her life-long dedication to our marriage is a monument to her remorse.

That said, often unfaithful wives ARE very remorseful. But not usually at the beginning of recovery; it takes a few months for them to fall back in love with you again. And then once they have fallen in love again, their compassion for you is VERY high, and their awareness of your pain can often bring about the expression(s) of remorse you seek. But not, strangely enough, always in the WAY you want. My wife's eventual, tearful expressions of disgust with herself and remorse for the effect of her actions on me and our family didn't make me feel better. They made me feel worse.

Wow, what a great post, Doormat_No_More. I think I will bookmark that as it sums up a lot of what I've heard.

Man_learning, I think I posted some radio shows to you about this awhile back. Did you listen to them?

I would say we on this forum do a real disservice when we help a betrayed husband dwell on a lack of remorse on his wife's part, given that such remorse is not typically present, and given that it causes the husband to shy away from doing what is necessary for recovery.

Thanks for the explanations. The unapologetic attitude makes R more difficult and its tough for the H. I have to admit I did think she would show some sincere remorse, not groveling, but still some remorse. Never expected the hostility she hits me with. She admits I do not deserve it and a few seconds later is at it again. I was too tolerant of her disrespectful treatment for too long.