Hi all,

I've been on this site (off and on) since '98 when my H and I first separated, due to infidelity, which was precipitated by a constellation of other issues.

We reconciled, then separated again in '00 and reconciled again.

Our differences became more prominent once we had a true empty nest in May '11, which happened to coincide with my mother's death. I received an inheritance which made me feel empowered to initiate divorce.

I had been a mom (of two), who brought substantial assets to the marriage, worked part time as needed, and partnered in managing 2 rental properties since the day we were married. In addition, I volunteered extensively in our community. I was college educated, had met my husband at the peak of my career in information processing, and knew that I could not expect him to meet all of my needs for stimulation, conversation or companionship.

My husband is highly intelligent and extremely dedicated to his career. He is my polar opposite in many ways... (a sometimes outgoing introvert to my sometimes shy extrovert) - hence our initial attraction to each other. His FOO couldn't have been more different than mine. We met at a time of extreme vulnerability for both of us (he was leaving his first marriage, my brother had just committed suicide) - and our relationship was intense from the get go.

We married 19 months after meeting and conceived our first child on our honeymoon in Hawaii. I quit my lucrative job (but felt secure in that we had income from a rental property that my savings had helped secure) and sold my condo (purchased when I was single) at a huge profit. My husband's career took off and we conceived a second child when our son had his first birthday.

Sadly, this child, our only daughter, died suddenly two days after her birth.

Twenty months later, our second son was born

Fast forward (23 years) and I was feeling distraught and at the end of my rope regarding my marriage. We'd had two separations over the years and were locked in repetitive behaviors that brought out the worst of us. I thought I had forgiven my H for his infidelity (long lasting) but I certainly had not forgotten it. I had kept, and was still keeping, journals about my struggles. My H knew this and took it as a sign that I had not forgiven him. Lots of resentment on both sides.

HIs job presented many challenges to our marriage. Travel - overnight - was expected. Usually, he was gone from Monday-Thursday. When he was home,
it was understood that he was largely unavailable as he had a home office. I wanted more undivided attention from him (and knew what the minimum standard was!) but felt I had no leverage as the "non working" spouse. I tried to be available for him when he found time for me, but couldn't always stifle my resentment and feelings that I was last on his list of priorities.

I didn't see any hope for us a year ago - but now - after months of divorce mediation, divorce support meetings, individual therapy, hours of prayer and contemplation, (reading, writing, discussing) and changed behavior, I realize
how much damage I caused in our marriage - and no longer feel that divorce is the only option.

The problem? My H responded to my insistence that I "was done," moved on - bought a condo, and has discovered that he is very attractive to others and no longer believes he cannot live without me.

However, through the process of mediation, we realized that we still had feelings for each other and established a poignant email relationship. This was followed by platonic "dates" which continue to both comfort and frustrate me.

I/we slowed down the pace of the divorce proceedings and now we are in this limbo... where I am trying to allow my newfound insight (into my contribution to our issues) to fuel my determination to be patient - while he decides if he can recommit to our marriage. He is as bruised by my announcement that I wanted a divorce - as I was when I discovered his affair in '98.

I have discovered that thinking about a divorce and actually getting one - are very different. Initially, I felt empowered - and did manage to get some of the "things" that I felt I deserved, but had trouble asking my H for. (a car of my own, long overdue orthodonture, autonomy over the household budget and decorating decisions)... but soon enough I felt depleted and sad. What good was it be to be in charge of my life, if it meant I would be without my H?

In short, a challenging marriage is painful -to be sure - some, perhaps most of the time. But divorce, from someone you still love (but have trouble getting along with) - is painful ALL of the time.

So here I am, (and here I hope WE are). Looking for advice and support. My H knows I am interested in reconciling. This has been "the mother" of all separations. We have grown separately this past year in ways that may make it impossible for us to be together again - yet may indeed provide the "key" needed for us to start over.

We are looking at "months, but not a year" (to quote my H) of discernment. Our lawyers know that we have put things "on hold."

Any advice? My H is trying to figure this out on his own, whereas I have a strong network of family and friends to tap into.

Thank You in advance!

I would try Marriage Builders. That is the one program that could turn your marriage around. The difference between Marriage Builders and other programs is that it restores the romantic love in your marriage. Using the principle of the policy of joint agreement, you wouldn't have issues of needing to feel empowered because it places both spouses on equal footing.

You probably know that traveling jobs are the death of marriages, so I would focus on changing that. Traveling jobs are bad in even good marriages.

Since your marriage has been floundering around for so many years, you might want to accept that do-it-yourself has not worked and enroll in the MB program. Put yourself in the hands of professionals this time. The current program runs about $1000 and they assign you a coach to take you through the weekly lessons. You also have daily access to Dr Harley, who oversees your case.

My H and I went through the program in 2007 and it made an amazing difference.

Thanks ML,

How many telephone sessions would this likely entail for $1000? Was your husband on board with trying this program from the beginning - or did it take awhile for you to persuade him?

My H is stuck on the idea that we are so incompatible. He wants a peaceful relationship, as we all do, but isn't sure it makes sense to have to invest so much time and effort to maintain love. He works incredible hours at his job and endures nightmarish commutes on top of that. I'm pretty sure he would look at this program as another job. He's in a line of work (consulting) that cannot be done locally. His area of expertise (hard won through years of study and practice) is very specialized and he must go where his skills are needed. I learned to accept this (being on my own while he was away) but became increasingly frustrated with how lonely I was feeling when he was home.

Did/does your husband post here?

I think what I'm looking for are some threads that I could send my H from men who committed the time and effort to partner with their wife in this process. I think he needs some assurance that the payoff would be worth it. He tolerates the demands of his job because he gets a huge payoff, not just financial.

Are there any radio archives that you think would be pertinent?

I hope I'm not asking too much here - but I've seen you jump in and help a lot of people. It must be wonderful to be on the other side!!

patient, since he is not motivated at all, and apparently places his career before his marriage, I would just get some phone coaching with Steve Harley instead of the online program. Most couples that come here for help have one reluctant spouse and Steve Harley can sometimes persuade them to get on board. The biggest problem in your marriage is that your husband places his career before his marriage and like Harley says, anything that comes before your marriage will eventually destroy it.

So that is where I would start. Just do the phone coaching now for yourself and have Steve work with you pn getting him on the phone. Steve can tell you whether it is worthwhile or not. Because unless your husband makes some dramatic changes in his life, this won't work.

patient, I am reading this thread for the first time, after you posted today on the financial thread. I'm so sorry to read of these events, especially of the loss of your daughter.

Your history resonates with me, not because of the financial issue but because of the sense of so much unnecessary pain caused throughout the marriage, and so much loss. My 23-year marriage is a tale of early kids, stresses caused by two working parents (so financial in a way), endless LBs, especially his angry outbursts at anything and nothing that I reacted to in kind. The result was marriage characterised by constant anger and days or weeks of silences - how pathetic. With my husband's travelling job, it was easy for him to have an affair with a woman who lived abroad. This began in 2003, and despite my early discovery of it, it was easy for him to hide and simply keep going for another two years, by which time it was very intense. After my next discovery he attempted to keep the affair going, but with my vigilance this wasn't easy. Still, the PA carried on until 2006 and there were phone calls to "keep in touch" until 2011, when my H retired. He is running our home now and I mostly work from home too, so I know that he is not taking day trips to Brussels as he used to do (from here in London). He has no mobile phone or laptop and I monitor his internet use, so I can be fairly confident that contact is not happening.

But my point is, like yours, there has been so much wasted time and so little good to look back on, and all for issues that really could have been overcome - in my case angry outbursts on both sides, and in yours, your H's career. The strife we have been through wasn't worth it and wasn't necessary. It was all so pointless and has taken up the bulk of our long marriages, when we should have been having our best years enjoying our relative youth, good health and kids.

But still there could be good years ahead, and in my opinion it is not worth throwing that possibility away, not for the long-term affairs and not for the other problems. They are in the past, and you and I do still have time to enjoy our 50s (I'm guessing for you?), which are the new 40s, our remaining good health, having good relationships with our adult children, travelling, enjoying UA time without having to think of babysitters, and being financially better off even in retirement because our kids are off our hands and our houses are paid for.

A condition of my recovery last year was that we registered for the MB online programme. My husband has been an unwilling and slow scholar in terms of doing the written work required every week, but he has been a vigorous partner in our recovery. What I mean by this apparently contradictory statement is that he reads the resources and tries to put them into practice, and I can see his efforts. Our marriage is much improved and, crucially, we are on the same page in wanting to put the past behind us and create a better future. The online programme has shown us practical steps to achieve this, and we would not be doing as well as we are without it.

MelodyLane recommended phone coaching for you, but judging from your post today you haven't used it. I can only urge you strongly to do so. Don't try to get your H onboard with this yet. Make an appointment for yourself, and speak to Steve Harley or Jennifer Chalmers by yourself (Dr Harley's son and daughter). They will tell you what to do next.

You may be in a worse position than I was last year, in that you are actually separated and I never got that far, but I still think your situation is very similar to mine. There is a long future ahead of you and you still love your H and want to recover, so that is what you should attempt. If you really wanted to leave I wouldn't persuade you otherwise, but I can see from your post that you have as many regrets about mucking things up as I had, so I am urging you to give MB a try. Book an appointment with the coaching centre today. There is a link at the top of every page.

Thank you, Sugarcane, for this lengthy and thoughtful response to my months old thread. I'm so happy that you were able to keep from divorcing!

You're right that I never called Steve for individual counseling. I had to give up my efforts to reconcile when I got hit over the head with my H's true intentions since we separated. He had "dated" several women last summer, but led me to believe that he was not seriously involved with anyone as of January. We were spending so much time together on the weekends - both at his new place and mine - (but abstaining from sex so we could work on our "friendship" - that I believed him. In May, I caught him in a cruel lie and THEN his lover since last August showed up at my door. She wanted me to know he had gotten her pregnant (at 52) and given her an std. But that he had been asking her to marry him from the get go. She's been divorced for eight years and thinks he's the best guy she's ever know - after dating 85 men from Match.com! She's no longer pregnant, but insists that she cannot survive being hurt again. Her ex husband (so she says) raped her in front of her children. She was at my door because my H had just told her he no longer loved her and she needed to remover her things from his condo and drive four hours back to her state. (after arriving the day before). He was due to visit me in an hour and take me to the beach! All this is to let you see how disordered my H is and how unhealthy he is in relationships and why I can have no future with him. My "Love" all these years has actually been from trauma bonding or Stockholm syndrome. He was (and clearly still is) very abusive and unwilling to get help for it. And from everything I've read about Narcissism, change is unlikely. I suffered from what's called "malignant optimism."

His agenda in pretending to consider reconciling with me was all about the money. He believed if he softened me up, he could get a more favorable divorce settlement. He had, in fact, nearly succeeded in getting me to sign over both of our rental properties so that I could keep the marital home. He wanted this done prior to the divorce - and was then going to be firm about giving me 30% of our other assets instead of the 50% that is standard in our state. Even after my painful encounter with his OW, he still expected me to do this.

I left out so much of our story when I posted in March - but our marriage began as an affair, so it was doomed from the start. I accept my role in allowing this to happen and while I may sound bitter towards my H, I'm aware that I got what I deserved. The abuse and neglect began right after the honeymoon. He went for a drive while I waited on the pregnancy test and refused to go to the Lamaze reunion with me once all the babies in our class had been born. He made me drive home from the hospital after our second son was born. He smashed our dead daughter's picture against the wall when I walked out of the room instead of fighting with him. He hit both our sons - he locked me out of the house, harassed me for making a $2 phone call to my mother, told me I couldn't spend another penny on my aging cat. He lied about wanting a Catholic marriage and says now that he does not believe in God, Heaven, Hell or sin. You get the picture.

The reason I've been posting lately is to keep myself strong about having no contact with him. I know I was right to hold my ground about not working as hard as he did, professionally. Because of his erratic behavior, they needed one parent who could focus on them 100% and I did that well. My sons have become successful, caring independent young men who love both of us equally. (He's very generous with them and smokes pot with them!)

I hope you see now that there's not as much that's similar in our stories as you thought. I wish you many good years ahead that help you heal from the time that was lost during your challenging marriage.

That your marriage began as an affair is perhaps the most important fact in this history, but I don't say that to throw it in your face or say "you got what you deserved".

I say it because it sets the context for the consideration that each spouse gives the other. Dr Harley has found it impossible to succeed in teaching couples POJA. However, I'm sure you've read about that on here, so I won't repeat it.

What I'm really saying is that the independent-mindedness about the career and the financial problems were probably forged in this background. It seems as if they were not the fundamental problem after all.

Thank you for your honesty, patient. I do appreciate it.

patient,

I hope we can help you keep strong in your resolve, and help your healing.

Thank you sugarcane and markos,

My grown sons even advised against another reconciliation. There really are cases where it's necessary to divorce and I have to accept that ours is one of them. Just thought I'd feel more relieved than I do. And I know it's because I was addicted to him and the drama. Sad to say - he's the exception to the rule about porn addictions and sexual functioning. While our sex life was frustrating because I felt like an appliance that he used from time to time for variety, his stamina and ability to please never faltered. Which is why he has no problem getting women to fall in "love" with him.

Thank you sugarcane and markos,

My grown sons even advised against another reconciliation. There really are cases where it's necessary to divorce and I have to accept that ours is one of them. Just thought I'd feel more relieved than I do. And I know it's because I was addicted to him and the drama. Sad to say - he's the exception to the rule about porn addictions and sexual functioning. While our sex life was frustrating because I felt like an appliance that he used from time to time for variety, his stamina and ability to please never faltered. Which is why he has no problem getting women to fall in "love" with him.

So will you be going into Plan B after D?

I think my recovery depends on it. I've been on another site for the past year (for recovery from narcissistic abuse) and NC couldn't be stressed more. I just don't know how I can do it for the rest of my life.

Did you use plan B to recover your marriage? I tried searching on your name, but there were a lot of posts!

He has always been a wayward. Waywards are inherent narcissists.

True. And he has a history of leaving women in tatters when he's through with them. His very first girlfriend ended up in a mental hospital at the tender age of 16 when he broke up with her. When he left his wife of three years for me, she didn't even have a driver's license. She never got over him, despite remarrying, and she found him on linkedin 30 years later! They had lunch (though I wasn't told about it at the time) and she wanted to get back together. Was still married, and knew he was! His mistress during our marriage stuck around for three years - took him in after I got a restraining order on him. His current lover went oversees with him on vacation last month (despite his kicking her out in May) and I suspect they are planning to marry after our divorce. So I get to be the only one who ever told him to leave - yet I feel as if it was still him inflicting all that pain on me.

Was your ex also a N?