The solution to disrespect is to refuse to be drawn into it. We stopped it VERY quickly once I put my foot down by stating "this conversation is no longer pleasant or safe" and walking out of the room. Took about 4 or 5 times before she caught on that the moment she engaged in disrespect, demands, or anger I would disengage from the conversation completely, up to leaving the house if necessary. My use of that phrase really helped a lot. She realized I wasn't leaving because I was "mad" or "wanted to get away from her"; I was leaving the room or home at that moment because she had made the conversation unsafe and unpleasant, though I had not accused her of that (which would be disrespectful).

So practice a few scenarios in your brain.

What will you do if she is disrespectful to you in the car? I would stop the car, announce that the conversation is no longer pleasant or safe, hand her the keys, and plan to call a taxi if it was too far to walk or take the bus. At no point am I making demands of her or disrespecting her. I am merely enforcing my boundary by refusing to be a part of something with which I disagree.

What about late at night at home? Announcing, "I'm tired. This conversation is no longer pleasant or safe. I'd like to sleep now" works fine, too.

Over breakfast? "This conversation is no longer pleasant or safe. I'd like to talk about something else."

If you need something more generic, a simple "I am not enjoying the conversation right now. Can we talk about something else?" works well. Truth is, my wife and I still use this one regularly. We don't typically use this phrase in response to demands, disrespect, or anger, but because we've brought up a topic where we've previously realized that we have few points of agreement and the topic is unpleasant!

I think it really helps when the BH knows the lack of remorse by the WW is typical.

The reason for this could also provide good information for BH. I still do not know the real reason for this phenomena.

Is there a working theory for this:

Is it their pride or ego that prevents them from showing any remorse?

Is it because they do not want to be honest with themselves about the hurt they caused to their H and children?

Other?

Has Dr. H opined on this point?

Not just WW but all waywards.

Listen to this clip of Dr. H talking about this.
Radio clip on Waywards not showing remorse

I listened. A study of 600 WW showed none had remorse. While some WH no doubt act the same way, it seems the majority do not, see post above on this point. Are you saying there is no difference between WW and WH on this issue?

I'm just saying what Dr. Harley said in the clip in what he's experienced that most waywards don't feel remorse (not all).

Yes, it does. It is easy to get into a bad cycle in your own thinking where you start becoming irrational, and you don't notice it, but you are thinking "This can't work, because she doesn't even acknowledge her mistakes, and ..." You have no idea you're being irrational when you do this, but you are.

I know this, because I markos am the prime offender!!!

It helps to break out of that cycle to combat with the very rational fact that Dr. Harley says this is typical and that he says many marriages have become good despite this.

I know because that's what I focus on to help myself when I start thinking like that.

It's not just affairs, either; it goes for lesser offenses as well. In fact, I've heard Dr. Harley say that women just tend to blame their husbands for their problems, period, and that despite this a couple can still have a good marriage IF a man stays out of playing the blame game and works to become a partner with his wife in the solution to her problems. Then she sees him as the guy who helped her solve them, rather than the cause.

Man_learning: By and large, Dr. Harley strongly de-emphasizes "diagnosing" your spouse in any way. What you seem to be looking for is not just an explanation of why unfaithful wives tend to not show remorse at the beginning of recovery, but a label to affix to this condition.

I cannot stress how fruitless such a pursuit will be for your marital recovery. If you are pursuing some kind of research for publication in a journal, such an investigation might be useful; if you are pursuing this as part of your own marital recovery, finding labels to affix to your spouse's behavior is antithetical to your recovery interests. I've seen time and time again people attempting to diagnose their spouse in some way; it never ends well.

The labels you use in your post above -- "pride", "ego", "do not want to be honest" -- are the disrespect that will lead to the downfall of your attempt at recovery if you allow it to continue.

I will talk about disrespect a little more. Pardon me for going long!

If you want a divorce, you have my blessing and probably that of everyone on this board and Dr. Harley himself. Having an affair is among the worst possible pain you can give another person, and you are perfectly justified if you divorce as a result. Nobody faults you; do it, and do it quickly, like ripping off a band-aid, so that the pain is as short as possible even though it will be very intense.

But if you want to successfully recover a life-long, loving, monogamous relationship, there is a very specific recipe you must follow, and a long-term plan to keep it moving in the right direction. Choosing to recover is completely YOUR decision; we're here to help, but we're not here to convince you to stay married.

A very important part of that recipe is that from this point on, there must be no disrespect in your marriage. In your mind, your wife must be your moral equal in everything. You are not the good person, and she the evil; you are not the humble, honest one, and her the prideful, egotistical, dishonest one. You must diligently work to remove all disrespect, demands, and anger from your speech, and when you feel frustration that threatens to boil over, learn to carefully redirect your mind toward finding solutions rather than labeling the problem.

That thoughtfulness and time spent together meeting the most important emotional needs will be the salvation of your marriage. That thoughtfulness must not be directed toward attempting to justify, rationalize, or explain your wife's behavior. It must be a thoughtfulness directed toward finding solutions to your problems that are win-win, not explanations to behavior that, at its heart, was never logical or rational to begin with and which you -- the victim of this situation -- are not in an objective position to diagnose and treat.

So I strongly encourage you to disregard any "why" questions from this point on. The answer will mostly be "just because", and that answer would frustrate you. The real questions that matter -- once again, if and only if you choose to recover your marriage rather than divorce -- are "how do we solve our problems in ways that build love for one another".

I've heard Dr. Harley chalk it up to the difference between men and women, and give a little more detail than that, but I don't remember it.

Statements like "she's too proud," "she doesn't want to be honest with herself," etc., are disrespectful judgments. So I encourage you not to go there! Trying to psychoanalyze your wife is a love buster. (DJ) Even if you never say it to her, going down this route will subtly alter the way you treat her and make recovery more difficult.

The thing to tell yourself is: "It may not fair to me, and I don't understand why it's this way, but if I accept this it gives us a chance to have a happy marriage later on."

And it works.

I think you may be mistaken in part of what your are saying or thinking. I do no think as you did or do: "This can't work, because she doesn't even acknowledge her mistakes, and ..."

I think its easier if they do acknowledge their mistakes early on, but if that is just not the way women work, I can accept it.

There probably is a reason for it if that is in fact the reality.

To me it's reasonable and wise to want to learn something about this issue. It tells me my situation is not out of the norm, and her mindset does not prevent R. That's a huge bit of info.

Also I have not made statements like she is "too proud," "does not want to be honest with herself." I do, however, ask questions like that. Is wondering about that also a disrespectful judgment? Is asking what Dr. H's view is on the subject also a disrespectful judgment?

Is it a disrespectful judgment to think that a WW might be in a fog or partial fog from an A?

Is it a disrespectful judgment for me to think that my WW's affair caused some addictive behavior?

Where does recognizing a reality cross into a disrespectful judgment?

Technically, all these things cross into a disrespectful judgment when you say them to your wife. For example, if you asked your wife "Is it your pride or your ego that prevents you from showing remorse?" I'm sure you'd agree with me that she'd find that very disrespectful. Even though it's a "question," not a "statement," it's still disrespectful.

But even if you are not saying it, it may not be a disrespectful judgment, but it is likely to hinder your recovery. Knowing that this mindset is typical and does not prevent recovery is helpful, but the questions you are wondering about border into an unproductive blame game.

That said, I encourage you to write Dr. Harley and ask him about this. If you are wondering why, ask him why he thinks it is. Maybe he can go into more detail. But this question is academic; it won't change anything about how you should approach recovery, and I'm not sure if it would help further motivate you to take the steps necessary for recovery.

Recovery is very much about motivation:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7100_counselor.html

Where does learning about or recognizing a reality cross into a disrespectful judgment?

You lost me when you seem to suggest that I am a "victim" and my WW's "behavior ... was never logical or rational to begin with..." I would not disagree with you, but if I think that way would that constitute a disrespectful judgment?

Please reread this from DoNoMo:


Dwelling on "why" will hinder your recovery. And, yes, trying to diagnose your wife's behavior is disrespectful.

When it passes by your lips.

You clarified thing and understand better now. I agree that it would be unproductive for me to ask questions like that to my wife.

Someday I may ask Dr. H about it. But for now I can accept the reality and move on.

.

Do you mean passes my lips to my wife's ears?

Does the same apply for those words or questions passing my keyboard to this forum? Or to a mental health professional?

No, it's not technically a disrespectful judgment if you don't say it,

but if you dwell on the questions you are asking, you're likely to get into a situation where you see recovery as "her responsibility" and fill yourself with resentment and prevent your own recovery.

It's better to focus on the BEHAVIOR of recovery.

I think a lot about the failed recoveries I see on this board, particularly the people who came here, disappeared, then came back a year or two (or five) later and said "We're doing everything right, but it's not working."

Usually what we find is, they aren't following the plan. They aren't spending fifteen hours a week giving each other their undivided attention meeting the four intimate emotional needs of recreational companionship, intimate conversation, affection, and sexual fulfillment. They are engaging in love busters like selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts. They are dwelling on mistakes of the past. They aren't negotiating their problems to find solutions that both are enthusiastic about; they are engaging in independent behavior. One or both may even continue to be dishonest and have a secret second life.

Somewhere along the road, someone accepted this situation, and the marriage failed to recover.

Along the way we often see people focused on the wrong thing. A common thing we see betrayed wives focused on is "did he love her?" Sometimes they are bringing up the affair repeatedly with this question. Sometimes they are blogging here endlessly about it. But regardless of what they may be talking about, the problem is that they are not following the plan.

The people who follow the plan for recovery (both husband and wife) recover. The ones who have something lacking, don't.

When a husband talks a lot about his wife's remorse or lack of remorse, I have to start wondering if he needs to redirect his efforts back towards the real work of recovery: making love bank deposits through the policy of undivided attention, and avoiding love bank withdrawals.

No I am not getting that undivided attention.

That being the case, this is where you need to focus.

You can recover without her remorse, if you get undivided attention. And you will be in much better shape than many couples that come here where the WS is extremely demonstrative in remorse, but never does follow through on following the recovery plan. There are lots of those, and they don't make it. They come back years later, still remorseful, wondering why it's not working when they are "doing everything."

So your earlier post about accepting this for now and maybe asking Dr. Harley some day down the road is spot on.

I find this exchange fascinating and informative. I don't want to T/J, but would ask if markos and/or doormat_no_more would drop by my thread (How Long?) and discuss how this may, or may not, apply to my situation.