Dr. Harley says in the call that if he were not in AM, he would recommend that Zhamila separate.

Doesn't he say that in response to the next email? And refers back to Mr. Z as an example of where AOs are being addressed, but if they weren't, he would recommend seperation, and a case COULD be made to separate until AOs were resolved, but Dr. h never makes that case?

That's what I heard.

Yes, that's exactly what he said.

So he never said in Mr. z's call that they should separate.

Just clearing that up.

Zhamila, I am glad I took the time tonight to go back and read through the last several pages of your thread, because I almost missed this.

PLEASE feel free to contact Dr. Harley. He really does want to help you guys, and he will not feel "bugged." Helping marriages is his and Joyce's life's work. Having met them in person, having talked to him on the radio and on this forum and occasionally in email, having listened to thousands of hours of him and Joyce, I can guarantee you that he is really in earnest about offering his help. You guys will need some practice to make negotiations pleasant and safe, and probably some help to negotiate the obstacles along the way. Dr. Harley and Joyce want to give that help -- take it!

I want you to know -- I really, really want you to know -- that you are not crazy! I hope you feel validated on this. Dr. Harley said over and over again that negotiations have to be made pleasant and safe. I think he would encourage you to keep trying, daily if necessary, and to stop each and every time that you start to feel unsafe. I see Dr. Harley validate people on this all the time: until the problem of angry outbursts is addressed, you can't make much progress on other problems.

It sounds like your husband is really sincere and earnest about learning to negotiate with you and about keeping you safe from angry outbursts. By all means, contact Dr. Harley and ask him for help if you feel like this isn't happening, or isn't working.

Don't let anyone on this forum convince you you are crazy, Zhamila.

This was a fantastic broadcast.

I listened to the entire call (including remarks that Dr. Harley and Joyce made during the letter they read after the call -- they drew comparisons between that marriage and this one), and there is not a single demand on Zhamila's part expressed at all. I think some of the posters on this thread are coming from the point of view that asking your spouse to not do something because it bothers you is a demand, but that is not how Dr. Harley treats it. Whether it be "just" getting the mail or "just" getting donuts, this radio show shows the perfect way to handle it. First, do nothing (don't do it) while you are negotiating; second, make negotiations pleasant and safe by protecting each other from making demands, showing disrespect, or getting angry, and by agreeing to suspend negotiations if either one of you feels the other is becoming demanding, disrespectful, or angry. Then, negotiate, until you find a solution.

Zhamila's husband called in feeling like Zhamila is controlling him, but Dr. Harley demonstrates that the real problem is that they don't know how to negotiate solutions to their problems. Of course he feels resentful until they get to a solution, but that does not mean that he is being controlled or that Zhamila is doing anything wrong. And as Dr. Harley repeated several times (at least three), he's going to have to do his part by not making demands, showing disrespect, or becoming angry, at least if he wants to move past the "doing nothing" phase and on to an enthusiastic solution. That is one of the places I think we sometimes slip up on this forum and fail to hold the high standard Dr. Harley does in helping couples; we tend to side with one side or the other as being "right," or we tend to throw out our own ideas for the couple as being "right," or sometimes we encourage them to stop at "do nothing" as if it were a permanent solution. (That may be because in some situations it IS the permanent solution, such as Extraordinary Precautions, where you should just NEVER do these things, PERIOD.)

The notebook idea sounds wonderful, and I hope Prisca and I try it.

Dr. Harley said he would work with them to help them learn to negotiate, and to contact him if they hit any snags. I would highly encourage them to do this! He told them to practice, practice, practice negotiation so that they get really good at it, and said that he thinks once they have this down the rest of their marriage will be great because they have a lot going for them, such as romance. Dr. Harley knows that once you guys have done this a lot, knowing that you can stop any time you feel unsafe, you will begin to feel safe again and you guys will be able to work through your problems. The notebook sounds like a great way to handle that; you can work on it when you feel like it and put it down when you do not.

Dr. Harley said the main thing that they were doing wrong and making Zhamila's husband feel controlled and feel like there is a flaw in the POJA is that they were stopping at the temporary solution of "doing nothing" and not negotiating an enthusiastic solution. And he made very clear that until they make negotiations pleasant and safe (no demands, disrespect, or anger) they can't move on to the rest of the negotiation process. He says "this is so crucial that you cannot go on to the next step unless this guideline is accomplished." After the call ended, in discussing the next letter, he referred back to the call and said "One of the things that prevents them resolving conflicts is his anger. And I said this to Zhamila's husband: you're never going to resolve any conflicts in your marriage if you have an anger problem. Now, Zhamila's husband is in an anger management program right now; that is what this writer's husband needs to do ... I really think that in the case of Zhamila and her husband that if he wasn't serious about his anger, I would recommend that she separate. In fact, there is an argument to make that she probably should separate until the problem is resolved."

Right.

I'm not really sure what your point of disagreement is, or what you are advising Zhamila to do. I saw you commenting that she was making demands, but I haven't seen any demands on her part, unless you want to count anger management -- which, since that's Dr. Harley's advice anyway, and the alternative is separation, sounds perfectly fine to me. Dr. Harley tells people that one of the few times he recommends demands is demanding that a spouse end an affair. This sounds perfectly similar to me. And from the call it sounds to me like at this point Zhamila's husband is enthusiastic about it.

As for the mail, telling your spouse it bothers you when they do something, and expecting them to stop, that's not a demand.

Like our donuts, you have to come back to it. Remember? I didn't want him to "buy" in, I didn't respect that, but after a few weeks, he brought donuts and it was fine with me.

Him getting the mail should have been up for renegotiation within a year.

Right.

But I think you are making the case that it's Zhamila's fault that it wasn't up for renegotiation again? And I didn't hear that from Dr. Harley anywhere.

Zhamila definitely needs to be validated on the fact that she is not crazy, and that it is perfectly normal for her to have had trouble negotiating in the past because of her husband's angry outbursts. Dr. Harley expressed that multiple times during the call. His angry outbursts are one of the big obstacles that have prevented them from negotiating, according to Dr. Harley, and she is not crazy to feel that way.

According to Dr. Harley, they should try negotiating now with the notebook, and in fact they should practice frequenntly with lots of little conflicts, and any time negotiations become unpleasant or unsafe, they should stop and put it off till later.

You agree with all this, right? Because I'm worried that you are trying to convince Zhamila that she is, in fact, crazy to have such a problem with her husband's angry outbursts. And that's completely opposite of Marriage Builders. Dr. Harley and his coach have validated every single complaint Prisca has ever had about me, including a whole LOT of them that kept us from negotiating, and a whole LOT of them that I initially thought were just her being too sensitive.

What's the first rule of negotiation?
According to Dr. Harley, is negotiation possible when that rule is not followed?

No, I said it seemed to me that she states something, he folds, then he resents her for his own folding. Thats why I suggested she make a complaint without offering a solution.

But this is the opposite of what Dr. Harley says about anger. You won't find Dr. Harley saying this, because it is contrary to his advice and beliefs on AOs, and their effect on marriage.

You are pushing your own opinions instead of MB advice.

So Mr.Z needs to tell Z "I'm not enthusiastic about A and B. How about if we do X, Y, and Z?" And they go from there while avoiding AOs.

I don't know about the mail but it seems he's not enthusiastic about him not being able to get the mail.

This is one of the things I think we seem to miss sometimes here on the boards, expecting people to stop at the "do nothing." But you are right, that won't work, because he's not enthusiastic about that. Dr. Harley explains in the broadcast that they should use "do nothing" as a temporary solution while negotiating, and that they should continue to negotiate until they have an alternative they are both enthusiastic about.

This was a great broadcast and I think I'm going to save it to link to in the future to answer "The POJA doesn't work because it lets my spouse get their way, because 'do nothing' is what they want."

I wish Zhamila would post! I hope she is willing to negotiate the mail. I would be interested to hear if they came up with any alternatives that they can both get behind.

I found where Mel had links to the show:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/programs/080912_A.mp3
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/programs/080912_B.mp3
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/programs/080912_C.mp3
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/programs/080912_D.mp3
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/programs/080912_E.mp3

That was an excellent radio show! I remember my frustration learning the POJA, Zhamilia. I also felt like my husband was coming up with "micky mouse" complaints and complained about him to Dr Harley. However, it doesn't matter what I think of his complaints; what matters is that I knock off the offending behavior.

From what I have gleaned here, your husband is having AO's when you complain. In my case, my H was having AO's in reaction to my independent behavior. As Harley has said, a complaint is an irritation in a bad marriage and an opportunity for improvement in a good marriage. In my marriage today, I listen to my husband's complaints, no matter how "micky mouse" and do my best to make him happy. And I sure don't tell him I think his complaints are "micky mouse" anymore.

My point there was that your complaints are not the problem but his AO's ARE.

Dr Harley told my husband that he had to knock off the angry outbursts and get into anger management. That resolving our issues was impossible unless he did that. So the others are right, the first step is for him to follow Dr H's advice and stop his AO's. You aren't going to get anywhere until that happens.

I think you guys would GREATLY benefit from getting into the online program becuase you would have daily access to Dr Harley. Dr H nipped our POJA fights in the bud immediately just by posting to us over on the private forum. You and your husband need that kind of daily, hands on guidance in my opinion.

Z, I am going to post my posts about our experience with the POJA.

Zhamila, you are not crazy at all! Just stick with us. I am going to post our silly fight over the lettuce back in 2007 and how Dr Harley put a stop to that. I want to point out that my DH has not had an angry outburst since Dr H told him to knock it off!

Z, markos is quoting Dr. Harley there. Dr. Harley doesn't think you're crazy - he takes your husband's AO problem seriously. He's got your back here, so keep emailing him, okay?

This is absolutely true, Zhamila. If your H can't get his anger under control, Dr. H will tell you to separate! You need to stay in touch with him.