I've listened to the show now. I see now that Mr. Z is concerned that the POJA is flawed, he thinks they don't have the skills to negotiate, and worries that the POJA will control him. He also downplayed his AOs, which is very typical of an angry man. He barely even acknowledges the problem, quickly brushing it aside. That is concerning, considering that he is in Anger Management and SHOULD be taking responsibility for his AOs instead of downplaying them.

Dr. Harley then addresses the original question about POJA -- the show was not about Mr. Z's AOs.

CWMI, my advice on AOs is not changed by Dr. Harley's advice on the POJA. It is ridiculous for you to insist that I must listen to a show on POJA to be able to advise Z on AOs. I have given nothing but straight Dr. Harley advice on AOs. If you have a problem with my advice, please contact the mods.

Z, it is great that your husband talked to Dr. Harley about POJA. The suggestion of a notebook is a good one. But note that the very first step of negotiation is to make the conversation SAFE. His AOs are going to have to stop in order for that to happen.

Dr. Harley told him that NOBODY makes him angry, CWMI. Or did you listen that far? Negotiation cannot happen as long as he continues to have AOs. The VERY FIRST STEP OF NEGOTIATION IS TO MAKE THE CONVERSATION SAFE.

This is basic MB. You cannot negotiate with someone who doesn't make the conversation safe because of their AOs.

I listened to the whole show three times now. You are focused on his anger, while I am focused on negotiation. Hmm, the show was focused on negotiaion, and all parties involved had all sides of the story. Why do you think Dr. H had both sides and chose to focus on POJA?

What's the first step of negotiation?
The reason Dr. Harley talked about POJA is because that was the original question, not "How do I eliminate my anger and is it really necessary."

Did you hear the part about they stop at what his wife wants?

Did you hear the part about making negotiation safe? Is Mr. Z doing that?

I asked you first.

Actually, it sounds like you are insisting that they negotiate even when he will not make the conversation safe. If that is not what you are insisting, then why do you have a problem with me saying that his AOs need to be eliminated?

Is Zhamila making it safe for him to negotiate? Does she allow it? I went through this when I got here, people thought I should negotiate my H's travel and business parties I was banned from attending. I thought, nope, non-negotiable. I support non-negotiables like alcohol-fueled parties and overnighters, but getting the mail? Something is funky there.

He is not here, so telling her to eliminate his behavior will accomplish nothing but a divorce. With the mail, he gave her an option, and she took it, but is still protective over the mail.

She does not want him to get the MAIL.

I don't want my H, to, either, but only because he won't put the bills where I need them to pay them. If he would do that, or take over paying the bills, no problem!

A lot of spouses will not negotiate about something as simple as getting the mail when they have an angry spouse who punishes them with AOs. That is why Dr. Harley says AOs are the most destructive thing in a marriage. You CAN'T negotiate until the AOs are gone.

I am not telling her to eliminate his behavior.
I am telling her what Dr. Harley has said, even in that show. The first step to negotiation is to make the conversation safe, and he is not doing that.

Dr. Harley told me personally that our marriage would never get better until Markos eliminated his AOs. This is Dr. Harley's stance. There's nothing she can do about it. She CAN'T negotiate until he makes it safe.

Are you suggesting she ignore the first step of negotiation?

No, I suggest she implement it.

Could someone post the link to the segment?

All this just to say that? Nothing I've said implies that she shouldn't do that. Of course she must implement it.

And her husband must do the same. Negotiation is impossible if his AOs continue.

So, my thoughts on the mail.....she is a former WS and she doesn't want her husband getting the mail even after the VS issue has been eliminated...why would that be? Control? Maybe worried something is going to show up in the mail that she doesn't want her husband to see?

I'm sorry Prisca but to me it feels as though you may be allowing the issues in your marriage to cloud how you see Z's situation. When I read Z's thread, I see SO much more that may be at issue here.....we only have Z's word about the AO's. What I see is Z pushing her husband's buttoms and demanding things her way and, then, when her husband gets frustrated or voices a different opinion that Z's, suddenly he's the one with the problem. AO's are never acceptable but if someone is aggitating, there comes a point where a person feels like a rat backed into a corner.

Oh, and the only reason Z's husband is in AM is because Z demanded it.

I don't have a subscription to the archives, but hopefully Prisca, markos, or brainiac will post a link. I listened to it live.

Prisca, if you listen closely, she makes demands and he folds, and THEN he gets angry. She is not implementing the first step. I don't get that he is asking to negotiate anything, it is her that wants to but she is demanding her way rather than negotiating. If he doesn't agree with her, game over! He's a big old angry meany. And she feels unsafe when she doesn't get her way.

I will as soon as they post the 08-09-12 shows, but they haven't yet.