Note from moderator: These posts have been extracted and moved from the BRF thread as they deal with a specific situation. Please notify the moderators with any questions.


Need some help solving some issues for my friend.

She is 34 and never been married. She befriend an old friend's ex-husband at Christmas. He has been divorced for three years. This is confirmed because she actually knew his ex-wife before she met him. Chrissy works with the divorce group at my church, and his ex-wife used to be part of the group.

She and I were at church last week and she asked me about adultery. I looked at her funny because I knew she wasn't married. She is dating this woman's ex-husband, the ex-wife from this divorce group. She knows his divorce was the result of him leaving his wife for the other woman. He has three kids all still in the house (I think 1 teenager, 8 year old, and five year old). The wife and kids live a county over now, so they do not go to our church anymore. This man just came back and started attending adult bible study (where she met him).

I asked her a couple questions to find out if he was or was not still wayward because he is attending church with her now. I am not sure I want to meet him either .... I am puzzled by her answers.

1) My first question ... why didn't he return to his first wife (still 3 kids here)?
2) My second question ... how much does he see his kids?
3) My third question ... did he want to take the relationship with her to a serious level fast?
4) My fourth question ... how honest has he been with her about his adultery?

I just got off the phone with her. Her answers are totally baffling.

1) He did not return to his first wife because in all honesty he wanted out. He used his affair as his way out. He feels bad for how he left the marriage, but he doesn't feel bad for divorcing. He did not love his wife anymore, and he wanted to find someone who he was more compatible, i.e. have fun with, physically attracted, fresh start, they fought a lot, he was tired of her not loving him ... blah blah blah

It was such a foggbabble statement ... the OW was this and that and he still has feelings for her. They no longer talk, but he does think of her, and still wishes things worked out. Chrissy said, this wife was devastated. Each time she came to the group she discussed how she spent years trying to save the marriage. How the children were devastated, but he would not leave the OW.

central is what I told Chrissy. I told her I could never be with someone who had no remorse. He still went through with the divorce.

2) He used to never see his kids when they first divorced. He didn't want the responsibility of the small children, and he felt he needed to get his life in order first. Now that he has been on his own and has dated, got himself established again, he is more involved with them now. They are easier now that they are older. He tries to get them most of the summer now, and is taking advantage of his visitation time.

I am not sure if I can label this a now ... does this still sound like wayward talk? I thought waywards are out of the fog when they start seeing their children more. I am not sure and do not have Dr. Harley references.

3) He did not want to get serious with her until about a month ago. He was not exclusive with her in the beginning either. He dated around and finally in May realized he was really liking her. He stopped dating (he said he was not sleeping with these women), and decided to really pursue Chrissy. They have not even kissed yet, and he is courting her with gifts, dinners, vacations, etc.

Again ... not sure if this sounds like a or not .... this is where I am confused. Can a freeloading wayward (seems still unrepentant) pull his crap together and move to a renter level? Is this where I introduce her to POJA and see if she will try that with him? I just gave her my BRF book ... she did read the section about buyer/freeloader. Can anyone spot some 's here? I have not experienced dating so I do not know if a wayward would want to get serious real quick or not.

Finally

4) He did not tell her about the adultery until May, when he wanted to be boyfriend/girlfriend. She didn't press his divorce issue with him either. She has not seen or talked to the ex-wife since 2010. I asked her if he seems remorseful about destroying his family. She says "No" ... he specifically said he feels bad about how he left his first wife, but he does not feel bad about divorcing. He did not love her anymore and did not want to save that marriage for anything. She said he was in love with his affair partner, and "Gosh I hope this wasn't one of our BS's husbands on here." The ex-wife was on here (MB) and her exposure broke up their affair. The affair only lasted one year and they broke up five months after the workplace exposure happened. The OW wanted to get promoted and the workplace exposure got both of them in trouble.

He still is mad at his ex-wife for exposure, but told her he has moved on past it. Today he just wants to start fresh. He is ready to stop dating, and possibly get serious with a woman now.

I asked her if she wants kids, because he has three. She said, yes, and they talked about this. He feels if she could wait until five or six years then his oldest is out of high school and his child support will go down. Then he can afford more kids. He is 37 years old. He makes good money, but isn't living a lavish lifestyle. I explained to her my xWH ended up having to pay much more in CS due to his lack of involvment in thier lives. I told her to find out more from him concerning this. How hard he fought the BW on CS and if he cut her off and such. I guess try and figure out what kind of wayward he was during his adultery. Then again, does this matter? Should she be rehashing this past with him? He is at church now seeming to want a better life. Maybe I am too biased.

I suggested she read buyer, renters, and freeloaders. Keep asking him questions, and make sure his answers are honest. He is an attractive man, and she thinks he has changed his ways. I am not sure...the guy is unrepentant. Granted it has been five years, but still he should at least feel someone what bad for committing adultery. The BW has never remarried and raises the kids in a county over from ours.

I told her to see if she can ask more questions concerning his adultery. I feel that if he is willing to harm his BW in this cruel way and not feel bad then he will be forever wayward. Chrissy does not want to throw judgement on him. She feels his judgements should be from God and it is his issue to work out with God.

I don't know if a man like this should be given this kind of trust. I told her to go back and see what response is about boundaries around the opposite sex, and how he would affair proof his marriage.

I will wait to here from her on this.

What else should she be asking him? Does this guy still sound wayward to you? What does one do with a person who starts to act Godly, but still does not regret destroying his first family? This crap hits way too close to home for me, so outside advice is welcome.

You are right, this is incredibly foggy, and it does not make sense. If they fought a lot, the solution is to go back and STOP FIGHTING. If they were not compatible, the solution is to BECOME COMPATIBLE.

If this is what ended his first marriage, it's the same stuff that will wreck his relationship with Chrissy. He will fight a lot with her. He will become incompatible with her. He hasn't learned anything about how to solve these problems, and so they will recur. As will his adultery, most likely.


If she knows this woman, and knows of her crying and the tears of her children why is she friends with this woman's worst enemy, her ex-husband, who destroyed her marriage and her children's world? :'(

My wayward mother never stopped trying to see me, and it looked horrible for her when I quit living with her and started refusing to see her. Many waywards want the children so they can prove to themselves or the world or whoever that everything is okay and normal.

I still get a birthday card every year, which I promptly throw away.

I think a swift, "Why would you want to be with a known adulterer who couldn't be bothered with his children?" would suffice.

I know my gut is on fire with knowing this man is not good. I am so biased because my situation is so similar. I think that is why she wanted my opinion.

Nothing is sitting well with him when we talk. I told her that I could not be with someone like this even if he was repentant.

I cannot support this situation. This is exactly what happened to me, and I told her how I felt about it. She is looking for the BW's information. We are going to see if we can find her on here, and read what she posted.

I think the main issue here is his actions in our church. I do not go to their bible study. They go together, and in it he is sharing deep emotions about what he did. This is why I wasn't sure if he was still wayward because his emotions are showing remorse.

I would think he would have be be repentant towards his ex-wife. This is what confusing me about people and God. They seem know they sinned, feel bad about their sin, not want to sin no more, but they never go back and fix what they broke. That is why I am confused about this.

Just like a theif ... he gets caught ... feels bad ... he never repays the money he stole because it would require him to do so much overtime ... his life would become unbearable. Instead society gives him a pass (forgiveness card) ... "Thief, as long as you learned your lesson."

Does adultery work the same? They get forgiven, but haven't done the hard work to fix what they broke.

Tying this in with buyers, renters, and freeloaders.

I told her when someone enters adultery they automatically fall to the freeloader level. They stay there because that is what it takes to date. When one gets into a serious dating relationship they have only two options. Become renters or buyers.

The only way to become a buyer after you have committed adultery is 1) fix what you broke, and 2) PORH and POJA.

Otherwise you will remain at the renter level for life and that will turn into a terrible marriage.

Adulterers have a hard time with PORH and POJA because it goes against their selfish, immature character.

The wife moved to the next county over and she hasn't seen her in a couple years. What is confusing is trying to understand when an a known adulterer has changed. I do not know this answer. I do not know what a known adulterer should do when he no longer wants to save his first family but seems remorseful as well as will they ever get out of their freeloader mindset to become a buyer. I am going to assume all former adulterers must follow some form of EP's no matter who they are with.

For me I struggle because I am not sure what to do as a Christian or as a BW. I would like to seem him go back to his first wife, but then again I am the BW, so that makes the most sense to me. She said he does not love the first wife and he never wanted to reconcile. I think it is was an exit affair.

I told her to see how he feels about friends of the opposite sex, and his view on PORH and POJA.

I think I need to recuse myself from this because I am in an airtight Plan B, and this is just triggering the heck out of me.

Exit A or not, his responsibility as a repentant Christian would be to do everything within his power to reconcile with his BW UNLESS she has remarried.

Zacchaeus, when he repented, immediately began to repay every possible person he had cheated, WITH INTEREST.

Till I see that level of change as the Holy Spirit works, I remain skeptical of the level of repentance. While I don't try to judge this WH's eternal destiny, I sure wouldn't trust him with my immediate future.

He hasn't changed, or he would not be dating Chrissy.


As long as they feel that way, they are still an adulterer and have not changed.


If he's not back at the door of his children's mother begging for a chance to come back, he's not a buyer.

Chrissy has believed this man's fogbabble about how bad his marriage was. I hope you won't believe it, too. Waywards lie.

The whole "exit affair" idea is fogbabble. It's a non-issue that needs to be off the table when reasoning about the situation.