I wish Zhamila would post! I hope she is willing to negotiate the mail. I would be interested to hear if they came up with any alternatives that they can both get behind.

Hmmmm, I feel differently about the phone call today.

I didn't like the light-hearted manner around his blow-up after his AM class - and I don't like the way he minimized his AOs, as if he "innocently" or "accidently" yells at me and frightens me, the "pounding" was just "putting his hand down accidentally" as if it's a "simple misunderstanding." Sure he sounded sweet and charming...but I don't see a sincere effort to conquer anger when his last AO was yesterday morning.

I'm sure this has much to do with my "State of Mind" in our marriage, but I am tired of promises to change followed by his saying that "mistakes will happen," and his "it was really no big deal," AO justifications.

I'm not sure what to say.

Perhaps you could hold each other accountable by checking the mail together?

Zhamila, I am glad I took the time tonight to go back and read through the last several pages of your thread, because I almost missed this.

PLEASE feel free to contact Dr. Harley. He really does want to help you guys, and he will not feel "bugged." Helping marriages is his and Joyce's life's work. Having met them in person, having talked to him on the radio and on this forum and occasionally in email, having listened to thousands of hours of him and Joyce, I can guarantee you that he is really in earnest about offering his help. You guys will need some practice to make negotiations pleasant and safe, and probably some help to negotiate the obstacles along the way. Dr. Harley and Joyce want to give that help -- take it!

I want you to know -- I really, really want you to know -- that you are not crazy! I hope you feel validated on this. Dr. Harley said over and over again that negotiations have to be made pleasant and safe. I think he would encourage you to keep trying, daily if necessary, and to stop each and every time that you start to feel unsafe. I see Dr. Harley validate people on this all the time: until the problem of angry outbursts is addressed, you can't make much progress on other problems.

It sounds like your husband is really sincere and earnest about learning to negotiate with you and about keeping you safe from angry outbursts. By all means, contact Dr. Harley and ask him for help if you feel like this isn't happening, or isn't working.

Don't let anyone on this forum convince you you are crazy, Zhamila.

Thank you Markos. I wrote the Harleys yesterday

This was a fantastic broadcast.

I listened to the entire call (including remarks that Dr. Harley and Joyce made during the letter they read after the call -- they drew comparisons between that marriage and this one), and there is not a single demand on Zhamila's part expressed at all. I think some of the posters on this thread are coming from the point of view that asking your spouse to not do something because it bothers you is a demand, but that is not how Dr. Harley treats it. Whether it be "just" getting the mail or "just" getting donuts, this radio show shows the perfect way to handle it. First, do nothing (don't do it) while you are negotiating; second, make negotiations pleasant and safe by protecting each other from making demands, showing disrespect, or getting angry, and by agreeing to suspend negotiations if either one of you feels the other is becoming demanding, disrespectful, or angry. Then, negotiate, until you find a solution.

Zhamila's husband called in feeling like Zhamila is controlling him, but Dr. Harley demonstrates that the real problem is that they don't know how to negotiate solutions to their problems. Of course he feels resentful until they get to a solution, but that does not mean that he is being controlled or that Zhamila is doing anything wrong. And as Dr. Harley repeated several times (at least three), he's going to have to do his part by not making demands, showing disrespect, or becoming angry, at least if he wants to move past the "doing nothing" phase and on to an enthusiastic solution. That is one of the places I think we sometimes slip up on this forum and fail to hold the high standard Dr. Harley does in helping couples; we tend to side with one side or the other as being "right," or we tend to throw out our own ideas for the couple as being "right," or sometimes we encourage them to stop at "do nothing" as if it were a permanent solution. (That may be because in some situations it IS the permanent solution, such as Extraordinary Precautions, where you should just NEVER do these things, PERIOD.)

Dr. Harley said the main thing that they were doing wrong and making Zhamila's husband feel controlled and feel like there is a flaw in the POJA is that they were stopping at the temporary solution of "doing nothing" and not negotiating an enthusiastic solution. And he made very clear that until they make negotiations pleasant and safe (no demands, disrespect, or anger) they can't move on to the rest of the negotiation process. He says "this is so crucial that you cannot go on to the next step unless this guideline is accomplished." After the call ended, in discussing the next letter, he referred back to the call and said "One of the things that prevents them resolving conflicts is his anger. And I said this to Zhamila's husband: you're never going to resolve any conflicts in your marriage if you have an anger problem. Now, Zhamila's husband is in an anger management program right now; that is what this writer's husband needs to do ... I really think that in the case of Zhamila and her husband that if he wasn't serious about his anger, I would recommend that she separate. In fact, there is an argument to make that she probably should separate until the problem is resolved."

Zhamila, how is the mail negotiation going? I hope you can come up with a solution that holds you both accountable. As a person with a long history of IB, one of my tactics for covering up my IB was to get to the mail BEFORE my H could so I could hide credit card bills, etc. Having him check the mail eliminated that ability and allowed him to hold me accountable.

When I explained your situation to my DH the first thing he said was "she is hiding something!" That was his interpretation so I wonder if your H worries about this too?

Perhaps you could hold each other accountable by checking the mail together?

I've listened to the show now. I see now that Mr. Z is concerned that the POJA is flawed, he thinks they don't have the skills to negotiate, and worries that the POJA will control him. He also downplayed his AOs, which is very typical of an angry man. He barely even acknowledges the problem, quickly brushing it aside. That is concerning, considering that he is in Anger Management and SHOULD be taking responsibility for his AOs instead of downplaying them.

Z, it is great that your husband talked to Dr. Harley about POJA. The suggestion of a notebook is a good one. But note that the very first step of negotiation is to make the conversation SAFE. His AOs are going to have to stop in order for that to happen.

That was an excellent radio show! I remember my frustration learning the POJA, Zhamilia. I also felt like my husband was coming up with "micky mouse" complaints and complained about him to Dr Harley. However, it doesn't matter what I think of his complaints; what matters is that I knock off the offending behavior.

From what I have gleaned here, your husband is having AO's when you complain. In my case, my H was having AO's in reaction to my independent behavior. As Harley has said, a complaint is an irritation in a bad marriage and an opportunity for improvement in a good marriage. In my marriage today, I listen to my husband's complaints, no matter how "micky mouse" and do my best to make him happy. And I sure don't tell him I think his complaints are "micky mouse" anymore.

My point there was that your complaints are not the problem but his AO's ARE.

Dr Harley told my husband that he had to knock off the angry outbursts and get into anger management. That resolving our issues was impossible unless he did that. So the others are right, the first step is for him to follow Dr H's advice and stop his AO's. You aren't going to get anywhere until that happens.

I think you guys would GREATLY benefit from getting into the online program becuase you would have daily access to Dr Harley. Dr H nipped our POJA fights in the bud immediately just by posting to us over on the private forum. You and your husband need that kind of daily, hands on guidance in my opinion.

Z, I am going to post my posts about our experience with the POJA.

While there are no excuses for angry outbursts in marriage, there are reasons, and independent behavior usually tops the list. I'm happy to hear that you're making it easier for your husband to overcome his AOs by avoiding IB. Keep up the good work!

Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

This is absolutely true, Zhamila. If your H can't get his anger under control, Dr. H will tell you to separate! You need to stay in touch with him.

This is one of the things I think we seem to miss sometimes here on the boards, expecting people to stop at the "do nothing." But you are right, that won't work, because he's not enthusiastic about that. Dr. Harley explains in the broadcast that they should use "do nothing" as a temporary solution while negotiating, and that they should continue to negotiate until they have an alternative they are both enthusiastic about.

This was a great broadcast and I think I'm going to save it to link to in the future to answer "The POJA doesn't work because it lets my spouse get their way, because 'do nothing' is what they want."

I agree and would love to hear more. This seems to me to line up with the Type A and Type B resentments: sometimes the solution will be "Don't" - and then Type B resentment kicks in.

Dr. H seems to say that Type A - someone doing something even when you tell them you don't want them to - is worse. Spouses remember it years later.

Type B - disappointing at not being able to do somthing you REALLLY WANT to do - will go away, especially when you come up with "substitute behaviors."

He didn't really get into this on the radio show w. my H, but I would love to hear him talk about it some more. Do you think it applies? Am I remembering the Types of resentment correctly?

He only had one AO yesterday: he wanted to listen to a 2nd song in the car, my son had asked for a different song after H's first one. I said "ok, we can take turns" (was that IB? probably...H didn't say anything, but that's no excuse) H let his 2nd song start playing, and I said, "Can we please let DS do his song first, and do yours next?" H ripped the tether out of his iPhone, threw it to the backseat, and said "FINE." eek!

Also, with regard to the notebooks....before you ever left for Target, you discussed it....actually POJA'd it quite nicely. Then, when you got to Target, YOU changed what you agreed on by saying no, wait until we get to Walmart. Think about how he must have felt......he felt belittled right there in Target by having his "Mother" tell him no, wait until we get to Walmart. Was the additional 7 cents per notebook going to make or break your budget? Was it worth unilaterally going back on what you and your husband had POJA'd? Was it worth causing conflict in your marriage?