The biggest problem I see here are his angry outbursts and until that gets under control, this ship is not going anywhere! I agree she has some issues but the glaring problem is his angry outbursts. So focusing on her method of presenting her complaints and cussing is all a distraction from the most pressing problem. Here is what Harley told me and my husband and you all KNOW I was extremely aggravating!:

She blamed him for her feeling dismissed when he disagreed with her thoughts on a restaurants decor. She said she liked something, and he responded he didn't, and she got melancholy because she was fed up with her statements being opposed.

She doesn't care how he feels, and she blames him for the state of their marriage. She states things, and unless he agrees with her, he is being argumentative.

She takes no ownership over the state of her marriage. She wants him to be at blame. She even said that she wanted him to divorce her so she could be the victim. Blame, blame, blame.

I gotcha. That is a bad habit we can help her with. She seemed real receptive to what we told her today so hopefully she can change how she approaches him.

It's funny, when I was new at this I used to also get my feelings hurt when my H told me he didn't like something I liked. It took me a while to comprehend that was a good thing, not a bad thing!

It doesn't justify it to us. But it does destroy her credibility when she complains about his AO's.

It comes across as a double standard. If she displays angry outbursts, and then is critical of his, she sending the message that she has two standards of behavior. She sets a higher standard for behavior she expects from him and holds herself to a lower standard.

Not saying his behavior is right. What I'm saying is she is sending the message that she really thinks AO's are OK by dropping the F-bombs.

She cannot in good faith complain about his AO's and give herself a pass with respect to her own AO's.

So is it an attempt to justify, or is a legitimate complaint that she has two standards and holds him to a higher standard than she is holding herself?

Both may be true. She should not discount the LB'ing impact this will have on her marriage.

No, there is ONE standard here. And that standard dictates that AO's are OUT, regardless of who does them. However, saying a cuss word does not an angry out burst make. That is NOT a double standard. Sure, she shouldn't cuss, but her cussing has NOTHING to do with his angry outburst and is only a distraction.

Your opinion of her credibility is irrelevant to her right to make an objection to his angry outburst. It doesn't matter if she has ZERO credibility, his AO is still wrong and she still has a right to object to it.

She joined MB six years ago, Mel.

The message you send here is that when he is confronted with AO's that he can successfully change the subject to HER past poor behavior. That is a tactic to avoid taking accountibility and he should not be rewarded in that effort. Any half wit can see through that ploy.

Any half wit can also see that they can't be blamed for behavior that happened six years ago, but they sure as hell can be held accountable for last week.

Mel, we all agree NO ONE gets to have AO's. INCLUDING Z! That's OUR point. Thing is, she is constantly blaming her husband for everything and no accountability for her own behaviors - that include AO's. She is destroying her marriage as much as her husband is but doing nothing about it other than demanding her husband change his ways.

Something has been niggling me here.....Z has your husband always been like this since you've known him or is this behavior that just suddenly popped up after you married him?

Comments like this tell me you are gunning for her, CWMI, and are looking for ways to put her down. I don't understand why you would want to do that. You know very well that she has not been on this forum all these 7 years. She was here for a few short months 7 years ago and then left. She got divorced.

So that is not a fair comment.

True intimacy (and radical honesty) is when it's safe to say I don't agree.

If her husband doesn't agree about the decor, it should be safe for him to say he doesn't like it. As long as he says it in a safe way, such as a non-emotional, "I don't care for it."

But if he says something like, "Only a stupid cow would like a place like this" she has a real complaint.

If he can't use the first example, expressing an opinion counter to hers in a respectful fashion, then she needs to work on making it safe for him to express his own view.

Like I've said, marriage needs to be a safe place for the one spouse to answer the question, "Do these jeans make me look fat?" with the honest, "No it's the 100 pounds you've gained since we got married that makes you look fat."

If one cannot accept such radical honesty, then perhaps they are not emotionally mature enough to be a safe spouse to your honest mate.

Real intimacy provides safety for the radically honest. That includes accepting truths that are difficult to accept. If you've gain 100#, or lost your job because you didn't do what you needed to do at work, or lost your home because you gambled away your money, or whatever, then you need to be mature enough to hear that when your spouse tells you the truth about what is going on.

I'm not talking about unreasonable expectations such as expecting your spouse to continue to look like a twenty something. I'm talking about being honest about how their choices are impacting them.

If you once went to the gym and remained under 150 pounds and now the only exercise you get is carrying a gallon if ice cream to the sofa, then it's not unloving when your spouse tells you that they don't find the new you very attractive.

Ditto for when they tell you that they find it difficult to take their stance on something seriously when they are doing the same things they critique you about.

If I weighed 300# and complained because my wife weighed 200#, my complaints would ring hollow if I was unwilling to change my diet and exercise to lose the same 100# I wanted her to lose.

But it does have to be safe to have the discussion about how the added weight, or behaviors, or whatever it might be impacts me.

If he cannot even disagree with her about decor, then how will he ever get the impression that MB would give him a chance to voice and expect resolution of his complaints about the relationship.

If it's not safe for him to have a different view on something so neutral as decor of a restaurant, then I find it difficult to believe he would perceive her as a safe an willing partner in any negotiation about the marriage.

Mel, it's not that anyone is gunning for her....we are tired of her complaining daily about her husband and doing nothing PRODUCTIVE to resolve the issues in her marriage other than playing the victim.....was it you who told me almost 10 years ago...If you refuse to do something to change the situation you lose your right to complaint about it?

Mel, read the very first line of this entire thread. Self-proclaimed MB junkie!

Maybe. All she has to do is say you are right, I shouldn't be doing it either, so let's both get back to work on doing what we need to do.

It's a fine line, because I can see both.

I would tend to agree more if he brought up something that was unrelated. I.E. she complains of his angry outbursts, he complains about her pantyhose hanging from the shower curtain rod.

Instead, according to her account, he is complaining about her angry outbursts. I don't see that a deflection as much as, whoa, you have a double standard going on here.

Since she is the one here, the only advice we can offer is for her to work her side of the street. If she is setting the example and no longer displays AO's, then if he brings up other things, it's deflection. If not, then she addressed a legitimate complaint.

Regardless what he does, she DOES need to set the example. If she expects no AO's from him, that standard of behavior must apply to her. If she catches herself, she has to make the changes to make her a safe spouse and consistent with the standard of conduct she wants from him.

We cannot know his motives. To suggest we do is to engage in a speculation and a DJ.

What we can say is that if she is engaged in AO's while expecting him to eliminate them, she will send the mixed message that is suggested by a double standard.

We don't need to know his motives to explain to her how destructive her AO's are to the marriage and marriage building.

I should remind you good folks that her husband in anger management classes. She has alot to complain ABOUT. He is not going there because he was singing too loud in church.

She does not cause his AO's and is not responsible for them.

Does she have problems? Yes. But none of those can resolved until he gets his anger problem handled. Piling on HER will not solve the problems!

You are reaching and I really wonder WHY. You even read my dreadful post about learning the POJA in 2007 and having a big fight in Kroger. I had been on the forum posting EVERY DAY for almost 7 years at that point.

Looks to me like the long knives are out.

Posting this again - Dr Harley's note to my husband - I HAD BEEN ON MARRIAGE BUILDERS POSTING EVERY DAY FOR 6 YEARS:

Mel, he's in Anger Management classes because she INSISTED that he go if he wanted to continue living in their home. It was not by his choice because he saw he had the issue, he did so to try and make his wife happy with him.

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