I have never gotten a Valentine's card from a man who I was not involved with.

Is there something wrong with me?

(MB team: you don't have to answer that, lol)

I think my husband is virtually paranoid.

Confuscious say, "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean people are not out to do you harm!"

My goodness, Princess, you certainly do have a large portion of self-entitlement, do you not? The examples in your note are legion, so let me concisely point out my favorite:

Last week I chose to use a neighbor across the street...to...put up a gazebo in our back yard that I knew my husband did not want built.

So given the long-standing evidence that your husband has been struggling with your improper relationships with other men, you decide to unilaterally override his opinion on this gazebo, and contract with (yet) another man to build it behind his back!

You credit your husband with the following:

My husband states that if I don't actually agree with the values involved in protecting a marriage from opposite sex friends that there is no hope for us.

Are you telling us you disagree with the sentiment in that statement?

Look, send your husband here. We would love to have the opportunity to assist him in straightening out your warped sense of propriety. Given your choice of "TheFlowerGirl" as an alias, I suggest he sign on as "The Weedwacker"!

Not having opposite sex friends in marriage is not a punishment. Dr. Harley and his wife have always lived this way, and neither one of them has ever had an affair.

Have you read any of the materials on this site?

Flowergirl,

What do you want? Do you want to be happy? Put your emotions to the side for just a minute and ask your MIND these questions.

It appears you are not happy. It also appears your H is not happy either.

MB can solve these issues for you if you give it a chance.

Fall in Love, Stay in Love and Lovebusters are some of the best selling marriage books in history for a reason. They will help both of you identify how to build a great life together.

MB can be a lot to digest when you first look at it. I get that. Eliminate independent behavior? oh my! Always take my husbands feelings into consideration with every decision? goodness! Mutually agree on all decsions? Good grief!

In the end, if you truly want a wonderful, long-term marriage, there are things which (many of us here have had to do)you must do including taking an honest look in the mirror try to become the best mate you can be.

Hmmm. This sounds familiar. Where have I heard this before? Man! It just escapes me . . . can't quite place it.

Oh yeah! Sitting in my office talking to my wife about her "friend" at work 10 months before I caught her boarding a plane with him and an unopened pack of condoms.

Yeah, that's where it was. I remember now.

(Insert emoticon depicting TheFlowerGirl whistling past the graveyard.)

Flowergirl,

Let me guess, you are good looking, in good shape, outgoing, personable, friendly and trusting, and none of these men you mentioned have ever had any sexual interest in you what so ever, and you clearly do not want to offend them. Right? You are my wife and I'm your husband. My wife's actions, like yours, and innocent as they 'may' be, have created much controversy in our marriage of 22 years. Check out what is referred to here as boundaries. Listen to what is being said and read around here for awhile.

OldWarHorse: Yea, no doubt. I've heard all this same stuff from my wife.

Flowergirl,

Please understand that many people have been emotionally devastated by spouses that have similar attributes as yours.

You may feel attacked, and that is understandable, but if you can look past that and really hear what people are saying you may learn that you are doing things that really hurt your husband, and if you continue to do them you will loose your marriage.

You can be as justified as you want or believe that this entire deal is silly, but it doesn't matter, your husband is threatened by your actions and doesn't feel safe with you anymore.

Personally, I don't blame him. My wife did the same thing and eventually 'accidentally' slept with the other man. After this she took on the same attitude as you telling me I had no right to ask her to end all of her opposite sex relationships.

She, like you, thinks I'm crazy and controlling. That may be, but it's not without reason. Soon she will be alone and our family will be permanently broken, but that doesn't matter because she thinks she is right.

So please ask yourself. Would you rather have your freedom to do things that hurt your husband (and eventually you and everyone around you) because you are you so convinced that you haven't done anything wrong, or are you willing to change your ways to make your husband safe around you and have a happy marriage.

It really is as simple as that. Nobody wants to feel unsafe and threatened by the one they love the most.

This is at the front of what is causing the problems, with all the stuff in between the lines highlighted to show the irony of flowergirls beliefs(s)?


Such a natural thing and trap that causes more problems in any relationship. Might I add that it started at engagement party, when FG you were a little drunk, talking to an ex-lover, and who was brother to your x-boss?. We can add in that X was also a known alcoholic.

I think you husband handled himself pretty well in that situation, except he did not come right out and tell the guy to buzz off and get lost. I imagine he was respecting your feelings, and taking the hit for the relationships sake.

You and he will learn sacrifice is a dangerous thing in marriages, and it puts us on a precipice that we have to balance ourselves on. Many times we fall off the edge.

So your Husband is still trying to gain that security he desires in the marriage? Good for him, and hopefully good for all of you and your family.

In the first quote I highlighted something in red, that is merely a fantasy that many women entertain, and one that has been causing you problems many years. Sure you can find tons of people who will take the side of,"Well I never would...!" ,but this too is vanity, and like the tigers trainers Siegfried and Royd, who for years defied the nature of the beast, one of them were bitten a few years ago. They don't blame the Tiger, because he is just an animal, but do you realize that your H has these emotions of an animal nature also? So do the men you are "freinds" with.

Your H has held his emotions in check and put up with this independent behavior since..your engagement announcement? Yeah FG its been a long time, and all he wants is security. I think he deserves it don't you?

Read and learn on this site, and have some compassion for your H, your walking a thin line and you don't want your Son to look back and wonder why Mom treated Dad like a suitor, instead of a loved and cared for Husband of choice.

Choice, and you own your choices, they are the only things that are truly yours

This is where we disagree, you have done something wrong. You are hurting your husband.

If you husband insisted on stepping on your feet and told you that he was not hurting you, would that make your pain go away? Of course not.

In the same manner, just because you announce that you are doing nothing wrong doesn't make it so.
If you don't value your marriage, then nothing. But as long as you are willing to risk your marriage for these things, we know how you value it.
Then why did you marry him, knowing he was broken? Don't try to lay this off on him. If he was broken, and you married him and insist on continuing your behavior, you further bolster the argument that you are behaving in a selfish and now since you know of his, as you put it, brokenness, cruel fashion.
Actually, you did have an affair with your ex-lover with your first husband. Given you have this history and his history, I think he has good reason to be concerned.

Yes This is true, but of course we are making some assumptions here.

1. Attractive. Well confidence is attractive, and you certainly have shown confidence in posting here. The eye of the beholder is where beauty is found, and from what I read in your post you are verbal and intelligent, and like the above poster noted, probably can hold your own with anybody in keeping up with the conversation(s).

2. Professional. From what gathered you hold/have held your own job and have skills in that respect with communication at least. I am not sure because of reference to old Boss and his brother/X lover, but I will assume you have professional skills that any man would be proud to support. But you are able to hold your own in your job and contribute to a household.

Assuming both of those attributes are right, you also have come here and are completely open about what you feel and challenging this board as to what your H is going through, as is very well known to MB members, and to Dr H and his staff, as a valid issue.

Let me shake your hand please, and welcome you to MB. There is plenty of help here so dig in and do some reading.

The board doesn't replace the books, or the nessesary time of adjustment, to dispel and disprove the many myths circulating about marriages. To that issue I will defer to Dr H and the staff

Keep reading here and I know it will be a life changing experience for the good benefit of you and your H

Flowergirl,
the advice here is good. I would recommend that you read some of the articles on the site here, and the threads people have suggested.
Also Dr Harleys books. As well as His Needs Her Needs, which someone already mentioned, I think you might also get something from "Buyers, renters and freeloaders" - in terms specifically of how being (happily) married is different from dating or cohabiting type relationships, and how the kind of friendships you have is something that you need to take more account of when married, if it bothers your spouse at all.

The idea in a nutshell is that by only doing things that you are BOTH enthusiastic about, that is one of the requirements of building love in the marriage. Departing from that reduces the love.
Its immaterial what the reason is that your spouse objects. What is important is that he does.

This seems "wrong" to a lot of people who come here for the first time, but believe me, it works. It seems wrong because a lot of the conventional advice out there in magazine columns, newspapers and from counsellors, is that you have a right to do what you want regardless of others ( as long as its legal). That may be appropriate for some things, but not for marriage. This is not a "moral" system at its core, it is a system Dr Harley developed based on discovering what works to save marriages.


Think of it this way, yes, you do have a right to do things. But there are many things you have a right to do that you wouldn't do, because there are consequences. You have a right to completely trash your house, for example and smash up your furniture. But you probably wouldn't because the consequences would be nowhere to sit and the cost of repair. Your husbands emotional turmoil and lack of trust in response to your opposite-sex friendships and independent behaviour is one such consequence - and the effect that subsequently has on you. In a marriage, you need to be in it together, pulling on the same team.

If he doesn't want a gazebo and you do, no gazebo goes up until and unless you both enthusiastically agree on it. Similarly, if he wants a garden shed, and you don't, no shed until you both enthusiastically agree.

Same is true with opposite-sex friends, what you are having for dinner, and any other decision, large or small. Each is an opportunity to improve the love in the marriage.

Also, I suggest read more here, listen to some audio clips, and possibly also the book Surviving an affair to get what is actually meant by an affair here. The Harleys have a definition of it as Intimacy, where one spouse is getting one or more emotional needs met that should be met by the spouse. That may "just" be conversation - for example, talking over your marriage problems with another man - the point is these things build intimacy between you and another person, which is a threat to your marriage. It may or may not include sex. It often leads to sex, but doesn't have to.

But you can read all this stuff, then you can see where this appraoch is coming from.

It is a field tested system based on what works. It has a very high success rate in terms of building more intimate marriages and healing them - as long as people follow the system and don't change it. Its universal, too. There are no special situations where it does not work, and it is not that it works for some people and not others. It simply works because we are all human.

The last line is key " it works because we are all human"

T/J
Sortingit my screename used to be "sortingitout"

Just funny to see it again

End t/j

FG,

Can I give you an example? My wife and I have been in coaching here at MB with S. Harley to address how my W and I seem to get along great on some levels, and on other have stricken such discord that our marriage foundation was going to bring the house down. In one of my sessions, I gave Steve the following example of my concerns.

Example: My W's card club of 12 ladies go for an evening out to conclude their season of monthly card playing and to give a going away to a card member who will be leaving the state (true to this point). While at the restaurant/lounge with appetizers and drinks, my W receives a drink from the waiter that she did not order. She says "I didn't order that", and the waiter says "the gentleman at the bar is buying it". She looks over, and the guy smiles at her and waves, but she doesn't know who he is. She smiles back. Some ladies at the table say to my W "You have an admirer". My W accepts the drink. 5 or 10 minutes later the same 'gentleman' comes over, stands next to my wife and introduces himself to everyone in that area as 'George" and asks my W along with her other friends in the immediate area what brings them out tonight. They explain briefly. "George" asks my W is she liked the drink and holds his hand out to shake hers and asks her her name. She tells him. He then asks my W and the other ladies close by, if they mind if he sits down. My W says that would be ok. George then makes some nice comments about my W, had noticed what she drove up in, that she reminds him of someone, etc etc, etc.

OK I'm a paranoid, but George has just been able to touch my W, knows what she drives, found out her name, is sitting next to her, asked her additional questions, and at absolutely no time has my W ever indicated to George that she has absolutely no interest in him whatsoever. George on the other hand, ever since the drink was accepted, believes he has a shot at something, maybe.

Now, here is what I told Steve I would have preferred happen.....

Waiter brings the drink by, and my W says "I didn't order another drink". Waiter says "it is from the gentleman at the bar". My W looks over at the man and doesn't recognize him, and tells the waiter she doesn't want the drink. The waiter takes the drink back to the man and tells him what my W said. The man comes by moments later with the drink and says to my W, that he didn't want to offend her, but she so much reminded him of someone... please take the drink or it will go to waste. My W says "no thank you, my husband wouldn't appreciate a strange man buying me a drink". The man says, "Well I didn't mean anything wrong by it, please take it...I'm sorry if it came across the wrong way. My W says, "No thank you, I already told you that once, now would you please leave. The man then says, "Well, at least let me introduce myself, I'm George" and he holds out his hand. My W says, I've ask you to leave once, and I'm going to ask you to leave one more time, PLEASE LEAVE!" George leaves.

In the above two scenarios, the first George thinks he may have an opportunity, and in the second, he is shut right down, flame out, ammo gone.

You and my W would be in the first example generally, and your H and I would like the second example. My W and you think George is just a nice guy, friendly with $$ to spend on you a complete stranger; but your H and I believe something quite different.

I am amazed that so many total strangers would spend the incredible amount of effort to share there thoughts and beliefs with me. Please know that I can't possibly respond right now but that I am reading every post. Some of what has been written I understand, some of what has been written is... I don't know. I don't want to appear ungrateful by not responding to each post. I just can't right now and I hope you each know I am reading what you have written. I am scared of my husband's grim view of our marriage prospects and I don't think this is all just about me. Its easier to block it all out and refuse to think about it. I feel overloaded right now. Thank you each one of you. I need time to think.

Me: 50
He: 57
Son:13

You both are 50% responsible for the state of your marriage.

You are 100% responsible for the emotional affairs you have had.

Until the affairs are dealt with then the marriage can not be fixed.

Don't feel too bad. The world tells everyone that "its all about me". Unfortunately that is a destructive way to live in a marriage. In fact I believe the most important point anyone learns about marriage is "it's not about me".

Amen to that just looking, when you marry it is not about "me", anymore

If we thought we had a hard time getting along and understanding our own journey, it gets compounded when we put another human being in the mix, struggling with thier own myths, misconceptions, realizations, etc.


You seem smart and aware FG, and responsible enough to take all this on and be respectful to others

Thank you for not having any quick reactive answers and thank you for answering. That right there shows you care, and don't worry we all realize this is new for you, just soak up the knowledge and power for you and your H

Like anything you get out of it what you put into it. Be a reader and ask questions when you need to

The only dumb question is the one not asked

If you're wanting to stay married, blocking it out is going to have to stop. It's time to finally start thinking about it, and start taking your husband seriously.

What's his posting name, btw? That's a quick question you can answer.

TheFlowerGirl,

I am amazed that so many total strangers would spend the incredible amount of effort to share there thoughts and beliefs with me.

Well many here are still married only because of this site, and when they first came here thought they had no hope just like you. So they are not judging you as outsiders, but relating to you and feeling for you as fellow sufferers and adulterers. They are also returning the favor which they've received.

God Bless
Gamma