I guess NG summed it up. My heart is heavy hearing the news. We're here for you.


CV

No you have not wasted 18 months. You spent 18 months working at getting the truth.

Digging for the truth is the first step of digging yourself out of this mess.

But you don't really know the 'truth,' you know what you know. The only way to get the truth is to finally have a truly remorseful WW who is willing to confess all, and confirm it with a poly.

There can never really be in a true recovery unless you receive O&H from your wife, and have that passed poly in hand, IMO.

I'm sorry to hear about the new level of trickle truth confirmation

Thanks, everyone. I�m not in any emotional condition to make decisions or strategize at the moment, but I will address a few of your points:

- The affair is not ongoing. It ended on February 27th 2011. This is a fact. My wife has been under constant surveillance since about 8 days after D-day, which is about a month before I found MB.

- My wife is from a culture that worships youth. A woman aged 40 is considered old and is practically unemployable. What goes on in the �privacy� of a marriage is fiercely protected; it�s not even the business of close family members.

- I believe she took Excedrin PM, but I�m sure she took more than one, plus she took another (or two) after she bombed the test to ensure she wouldn�t have to discuss the test results on the two-hour drive home, or for the rest of the day.

- A further polygraph would serve no purpose. I painstakingly followed her actions from 2006-2011 using telephone and credit card records, bank statements, travel documents, family, personal, and business logs, etc. There�s more information there than I�ll ever get from a polygraph. It�s quite graphic. When I presented it to her yesterday, she began arguing, but after really looking closely at the reconstruction I was showing her, I saw her countenance fall and she finally broke. Now, for the first time, the story matches the evidence. All of the evidence. That�s how I know I have most of the truth.

She still lies. She�s downplaying the level of sexual contact, but I know better.

Just like I�ve known all along.

You�d think by this time, she�d learn to quit playing me for a fool.

A poly that shows she is still lying serves no purpose. A poly that confirms you finally have a remorseful wife who has finally given you O&H does. But, you are clearly far from that, given the fact she continues to argue you with unless you can provide her with evidence supporting your claims. And by the fact that you wrote 'she still lies.'

So, what's your plan, or is it to fresh to have created one yet?

She still lies. She�s downplaying the level of sexual contact

An inveterate liar will continue long after most rational folks would realize the jig is up. She likely will NEVER admit to her current lies until forced by the evidence of her own admissions as to their falsity. That's why, "A further polygraph would serve no purpose" is not true, unless, OWH, your disgust with her ongoing behavior is causing you to lean toward dissolution. Once she's in your rear-view mirror, the only person affected by her dishonesty would be.....her.

I have to admit. I came home today and started going through the house looking at family pictures, pictures of her and me, and etcetera, imagining an end to this family. For the first time since my household blew up, I'm trying to wrap my head around the concept of divorce, to internalize to see if that's what I really want this time.

What she has put me through over the last eighteen months is incredibly cruel. But, she can't see it! She stood there last night watching me highlight the documents as I uncovered one tryst after another repeating over and over: "Why do you want to hurt yourself like that?" "What good does it do now to know what happened?"

She thinks I'm only HURTING MYSELF by knowing the truth.

I'm completely at a loss to understand this woman.

That's why I asked you if she was from a culture that treated women as second class citizens

In the many cultures that do that, even the ones in this country, we are put at war with the opposite sex

The idea become that we have to " work around" our partners feelings and emotions, instead of "work with" our partner while understanding our emotional natures, thier strengths and weaknesses.

Honesty is of course paramount and you will not have peace without it

OWH,

Did you remind her that you were liberating her from having to keep these horrible secrets, and her having to think of them everyday for the rest of her life. Does she really think she can save her marriage with such an iceberg of untruth in the path of recovery.

God Bless
Gamma

Does she really think she can save her marriage with such an iceberg of untruth in the path of recovery?

EVERY selfish, trickle-truth dealing, lie-spewing WS in the history of the world has thought exactly that, my friend, because they have grown accustomed to living in a fantasy land built on lies and deceptions. They start thinking that way at the first inappropriate conversation, continue through secret e-mails and texts, reinforce the concept for those "friendly" lunch dates, and commit to it firmly as the motel door closes.

It does us no good to underestimate the illusion under which they operate. The faster the BS makes the firm commitment that everything the WS has to say is a falsehood, the faster the recovery might be. Sadly, at the beginning, OWH lost a lot of time believing WW and doubting some of us here. He is scarcely likely to be taken in again.

In my defense, my major disagreement with you, NG, and the others, was in exposure. I was being pressured to expose to OM's wife when I strongly believed my wife was lying about the ID of her AP. Under MB principles, you do not expose when their is doubt of that magnitude in the affair. Had I followed the red herring thrown my way, it could've been disastrous.

My mistake was stopping my investigation after finding almost no contact between WW and POSOM throughout 2009. At that point, I took her word for what had occurred.

Around late May of this year is when the first seemingly innocent slip came out, which didn't match previous stories. Nothing serious, I had a few bad days, pulled myself back together, but was left with a gnawing discomfort. A few weeks ago, WW and I were lounging in the pool with drinks, and there was a major slip. My radar went back on, it's been relentless pressure leading to the polygraph, and we all know the story from there.

I'm married to a liar. That's who she is: a liar. I'm having a tough time coming to grips with that.

@OldWarHorse:

You are again at a divide. Do you chose to divorce, cut your losses, and move on with your life? Or do you choose to recover?

If you choose to divorce -- and I wouldn't blame you, with the extent of the hurt your wife has put you through -- you can hold onto the thoughts you're expressing now. The trickle-truth here has been HUGE. You were married to a liar who abused your trust repeatedly and lied to you about it until you couldn't take it anymore. You expose the history to everybody who might possibly support you in your divorce, and do what you need to do.

If you choose to recover, you will have to put the thought of "I'm married to a liar" out of your head. She'll have to be on equal moral footing with you for the rest of your life if you hope to have a happy marriage. My question is: is that something you can do or want to do?

Another important question is: do you expose again? The purpose of exposure is two-fold:
1) To put pressure on the affair partners to hasten the demise of the affair. This probably does not apply now.
2) To garner support for the betrayed spouse during a very difficult time when you need all the help you can get. This still applies. And although I don't think "nuclear exposure" will be helpful, I really think a male friend or three -- and family members -- should really know the extent of your wife's infidelity so that you have some shoulders to lean on. But that's personal opinion, not MB-fact

I don't know if I would equate the nature of a person's struggles with his or her morality.

I am also married to a person who lied to me from the year we met (1981) to 2010. Today, I don't know if he truthful with me, or if he is lying and I have not yet found the evidence.

I don't think I can ever consider him a truthful person, just (as current research indicates) as you cannot consider a person with alcoholism a sober person.

I am a person who struggles with depression, among other things. So far, the nature of my struggle has not led to infidelity. But, without boundaries, it could. And it did lead to other types of problems in our marriage, particularly lack of communication.

I may be doing better during certain periods, but I will always be a person who struggles with depression. My husband, should he choose to stay with me, has to realize this and be willing to work with me on it. In times of stress, it is a challenge for me not to fall into depression.

Similarly, my husband struggles with conflict-avoidance, selfishness and lying. The nature of his struggle, combined with a lack of boundaries, did lead to infidelity, gas-lighting and trickle-truth.

If I choose to stay with him, I have to realize that he is a person who struggles with lying.

And, to some degree, I have to be willing to work with him on it. We both have to realize that in times of conflict, he will have to overcome the temptation to fall back on lying.

We all have our struggles, and they all cause discomfort and pain in ourselves and those around us. The nature of our struggles will differ, and the manner in which they caused pain will differ, but otherwise, we are all in the same boat.

I certainly don't want to be misinterpreted and for anyone to think that I am advocating tolerating a lack of honesty or lying. My husband and I are not recovered; I don't know if we ever will be. We may stay married, we may get divorced. I don't know yet. And, for me, his struggle with lying is the hardest thing for me to deal with. Other things I think I could work with him on - this, I don't know.

I just wanted to say that I don't know if this issue has anything to do with morality, per se.

To stay married, we both have to be aware of our issues and our patterns. It will be important never to fall into complacency, and feel these issues are "resolved."

If you choose to stay married, I think it's important to recognize the nature of your wife's struggle, and be willing to work with her. Obviously, she must also be willing to recognize her area of weakness and "clean up her side of the street," as they say, beginning with radical honesty.

Hope I made a little sense here; I don't know if I accurately stated my thoughts.

BV

P.S. FWIW, I wish I did not stay; I wish I got out in '06. Would have saved me a lot of anguish. Since 2010, nothing has happened to have made staying "worth it."

I don't feel as if I'm in a proper emotional state to make this decision at the moment. I recognize you were probably being rhetorical leading up to the rest of your post.


The affair ended right away and I never exposed to anyone. Didn't really have friends or a family I trusted for support, so WW and I have just been working it on our own.

I did develop a closer friendship with a musical acquaintance over the past 18 months. I saw him last week after the polygraph and he immediately asked what was wrong. I finally spilled the beans; just unloaded everything. I now have someone outside of my house that I can talk to about this.

I'm also now considering exposing to WW's family. The most difficult thing I've dealt with has been being around them trying to act like nothing is wrong. Whenever I'm down and don't want to socialize with them or go to one of their functions, it reflects badly on me. I haven't been able to tell them that I don't want to drink, dance and make merry because their daughter/sister has ripped my insides out. I think it might be time to correct that situation, so they know what's really wrong with me.

That one could really backfire, though. Dragging such an ugly secret out in the open could very well turn her entire family against me.

Thank you, BV, but I don't look at selective, self-preservative lying as a condition that requires my patience. If I do decide to go all in on another recovery effort, it will be with a person who's totally committed to O&H. I will not live with a liar, whether or not it's deemed to be a clinical condition.

OWH, I think Dr. Harley would definitely say your wife's family should know about it. The primary reason of course would have originally been to end the affair, but he also says that even after the affair is not ongoing, family members should know about it.

One reason is because you should not have to go through the farce of pretending everything is okay. That is not fair to you. That is a consequence of her affair which should be borne by her, not by you.

You don't have to be vindictive about it. You can even talk about the work that's been done for recovery. Just matter of factly: my wife had an affair. She's really put me through the ringer with continued lies. I'm feeling pretty terrible right now and could use any support you can offer.

Why would they turn against you? She had the affair.

You see BV, I can totally understand what you are saying, also suffer from depression, have had times in my life and situations that have really messed me up, but I know the moral questioning is a valid point.

The intentions of the action of lying to your spouse, to any adult with a sound mind about anything are suspect.

Those people don't even know themselves or thier own human capacity to mess up thier lives

Same goes for us that take on the role of the suffering servent, of God, a greater good, whatever. We too become subject to deceases like depression, blowups of anger, and it is said depression is anger turned inward. I believe it wholeheartedly.

The moral choices reflect on the fabric of what we all call, "A belief system". A system we internalize that we count on to keep us safe.

Fear is an important and nessesary part of keeping safe, but to be subjected to fear at the hands of the one we share our personal life with, because you can't trust them to protect you too, is cruel and for lack of a better word, immoral.

So why even get involved with someone who lies and cheats, can't be trusted, and has proven they will cause you pain?

Why try to "save" them from the worlds influence or themselves?

Why even try to take on that responsibility?

We are warm blooded creatures us humans, and we understand mercy that's why

To address how I personally have come to this revelation of human nature, I will have to quote something from the Christian bible, not as a bible thumper mind you, but because thier is wisdom in the words that reveals much

"Mercy is the mother heart of God"

Hmm? Well what about the god who is going to make all things new and who is going to right the wrongs? Isn't He gonna kick all the bad guys butts?

We lose the reality that our conscience is not the responsibility of others, or even us, yes even us perfect people who have not intentionally done anything wrong.

Honesty and integrity is a personal choice, and it is a tough path to negotiate, when we try to represent something that we do not have control over for someone else

Men and women both have emotions and though different creatures, being free from the fears and lies and deciet that we cause ourselves many times from expected behavior from the powers that be and form us in life, we still have them.

The "truth", is a question for the ages, but the sharing of ones life with someone not willing to deal with the truth on even the most basic levels, is torture.

OWH, she needs to trust in you before she trusts in herself, as long as you are sharing the same bed, and as long as you are trying to share the same life.

Marriage is no joke, that's why there are rules of engagment, it's a battle for the mind and soul, no matter where your morals come from.

But in my mind, morals are important BV

How could one put it out of their head if they are, indeed, still married to a liar? Clearly, OWH has a non repentent wife who has no intention of practicing RH or filling his need for O&H. For him to trudge forward into an attempt at recovery while knowing that is just setting himself up for the continued pain of beating his head against the wall.

After all, there really is no such thing as recovery without Radical Honesty is there?