AND it isn't about winning.
Or proving who is wrong and who is right. I am way past that stuff.
I am copyiny my post from TheFlowerGirl's thread "I did not have an affair"
I was directed to start my own thread.

I am not out to prove my wife is bad. She can be wonderful in many, many ways. I just can't be unsafe anymore. I just cannot.
Here is what I posted on her thread:
MB posters... or TheFlowerGirl please feel free to tell me to stay off this thread. I am TheFlowerGirl's husband. I have come to a point where I literally feel nothing emotionally. In desperation I pointed my wife here when she told me I was threatening her by saying I wanted to leave the marriage because I was not safe. I guess here is what I would want to say... I will gladly create my own thread if this is what I am supposed to do. I will never read this my wife's thread if this is what I am supposed to do and I keep my word.
TheFlowerGirl is the most wonderful mother you would ever know in your life. She is the finest neighbor, co-worker, student and friend anyone could ever have. She is very beautiful.
Truthfully, as a wife, she I am sure will make someone she loves and cares about feel wonderful. I have come to the conclusion that I never was and never will be that person. The story Gone With The Wind comes to mind but many of you will not know what I am talking about with that characterization. But I am right there "Frankly Scarlet......."
She is sensitive (as you can see above...), very sensitive and years of me raising my voice to try and make a point took their toll on her. It never worked. If anything it did the opposite of what I hoped for. That is exactly what angry outbursts do. Likewise, years of me living in agony over her choices has left me emotionless and that is extremely scary and I am far beyond being afraid. I live in terror. And I have. Only the realization that I was going to die if I continued to live in this circumstance brought me to realize that I have to either mandate change or leave our marital home. I have resisted Plan B because long ago in this situation Steve H recommended that I not and because of our 13 year old son. And the posts about Men don't leave your home on this board also held me down.
Folks, I have plan A'd for so long what I really did was continue a pattern of enabling (sp?). I can't do it anymore. In my opinion only, Counseling with Steve H failed because my wife stated that she felt she got nothing out of it. I think counseling fails according to MB as long as the outside of marriage ea's continue. But I Could be wrong too.
I am 100% responsible for my pattern of verbal angry outbursts in our marriage. Some of you here might not have thought they were out of the ordinary, but TheFlowerGirl is very gentle and is easily traumatized by shouting, or confrontation and I knew those things and did it anyway for years. I have worked for three years in therapy and with a private group to eliminate the pattern and habit. I have made a change and I know it shows but I also can accept if it is too late for TheFlowerGirl.
If I do anything (such as saying I can't live in this marriage this way anymore)that expresses the honest truth, I become the bad guy.
Recently if finally hit me that (1) I have been receiving tremendous mental abuse over this issue of opposite sex friendships (or EA's) for years and (2) that I have been accepting blame for getting frustrated and shouting about it when in many instances I was often the victim. And I refuse to be a victim any longer. I will not be martyr in a marriage where I give up my abiity to feel safe in a bad trade for a hope that I will be loved any longer. I am going to survive this with or without TheFlowerGirl.
Be gentle with her. She can't hear if she is hit over the head. I assure you, I tried that tactic verbally for years and failed. Her self defenses are way to strong.
You guys and gals here were my last hope.
sincerely

ReadyAbout

("Ready about" is the command given on an old sailing ship right before it changes tacks or direction.... hopefully the analogy is obcvious).

Me: 57
Her:51
Ours:13

I'm so glad you started your thread.
Welcome aboard.


Do not ever yell again. If yelling worked, you'd be all better by now.
Yelling makes you look bad and she feels vindicated for hurting you in the first place.

Okay?

Welcome readyabout to MB and sorry for the pain that has brought you here.

Just wanted to welcome you.

Hi ReadyAbout, I just posted on FlowerGirl's thread. I was in a marriage similar to yours where I felt nothing emotionally, just as you do now. Unfortunately, I didn't understand what I do now in hindsight about my marriage, and it ended. The emotional numbness I felt was caused primarily by my xW's not caring about my feelings. But I also know I had something to do with that; it's always a 2-way street. It sounds like you're in the state of Withdrawal, and you might have a difficult time getting out; the longer you've been there, the harder it is to get out. One of the difficult aspects of getting out is lack of motivation. As I wrote on FlowerGirl's thread, I'm fairly new here and can't offer you the advice others can, but I just wanted to let you know that I've been where it sounds like you're at psychologically. Sometimes just knowing that others have been in similar situations and have compassion for you can help. Best wishes.

Plan A forever, eh?


Sounds kinda familiar...

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8122_wife.html


You are right, you should no longer tolerate this abuse from your wife. And until she gets her mind right about opposite sex friendships, you WON'T be safe.

So, it will be up to YOU to keep yourself safe by no longer tolerating third parties in your marriage.

You have to know that YOU will not tolerate this any more, and that if things don't change, YOU. can. walk. away.


Keep working on those AOs. Nobody likes being around a screaming jerk.

You may have read this already .... but read it again.

This link will mention a "lack of empathy" and how that damages marriages because it allows one spouse to continually hurt the other.

Link to a Basic Concept

Your wife shows little to zero empathy.

ReadyAbout-

Unfortunately, I can relate to your situation to a degree. I give you props for trying to work out you M with someone who has a history of dishonesty including cheating on her first H.

What I want to share with you is that in my experience, MB does work but ONLY if both sides are willing to dig in their heels and do the work. Your W seems very entitled and is being called out for it on her thread.

The turning point in our R was when it was blatantly obvious that my W hit rock bottom ..then and only then did I see the true attitude to commit to the M. It doesn�t look like your W is there yet. You can�t continue to do the same things and expect different results.

Best thing I did was stand up for myself, set boundaries and say �hey, I love you and am willing to do the work to make this a great marriage. But, in order for ME to do so you must; commit to MB and commit to these EP�s. It is totally up to you what you want to do, but these are MY terms to move forward�.

At that point, it was totally on her. Still is. I cleaned up my side of the fence and made real changes in myself which followed MB principles. I could only control myself.

She decided to go full in. We are now 8mos into R and things are going pretty well. Hard? Heck yes! Rewarding? Heck yes! Not with standing overcoming the fallout of the A, our marriage has never been better. We are filling each other�s EN�s and eliminating LB�s. We see that the program does work and are working toward an amazing future together.

All the best.

I am thankful for the comments. I cannot make myself see my wife as a bad person. I used to think that yelling was perfectly normal. My parents yelled and then always grew close afterwards and made up. I refused TheFlowerGirl's requests to stop. I brought up my boys with aggression, and I made sure they were tough and when they challenged me I put them on their butts (till about age 16 when the worm turned). That is how I was brought up etc. etc. To my wife this was horrific. I just thought it was how you raised a boy. I did not want them shaking in their boots like I did when Gunny Kelly began yelling at me when my feet were in the yellow footprints....
So I was completely blind to my yelling. Totally. I didn't see the verbal abuse / angry outbursts as wrong. Then one day I realized my wife was in an EA and I started reading Dr. H about angry outbursts, EN's etc. and that led me to Peggy Vaughn and I awakened from the lies I had been telling myself about verbal abuse and angry outbursts.
But what happened to me, is what happened to me. TheFlowerGirl is so much like I once was, totally oblivious to the impact of her behavior and philosophy. I can wish till the cows come home but she can't wake up like I did. If she did, I would worry about her because when I stopped lying to myself and saw the pain I had caused her I wanted to die.
I am standing up and saying no more but perhaps I lack your guts and needed them 15 years ago. Now when I say no more, I have no hope, just the need to personally survive and maintain my own sanity. And I feel guilty about my history of angry outbursts but not enough to owe my life to this torture. I can't do it anymore.

("Ready about" is the command given on an old sailing ship right before it changes tacks or direction.... hopefully the analogy is obcvious).

Me: 57
Her:51
Ours:13

Pepperband: I did read the entire Link to a Basic Concept. I saw myself a few times, maybe a more than a few times. Mostly now under Selfish Demands because I have said no more. But I used to own the chapter on Angry Outbursts.

("Ready about" is the command given on an old sailing ship right before it changes tacks or direction.... hopefully the analogy is obcvious).

Me: 57
Her:51
Ours:13

Obviously, you can only clean up your side of this mess, just as your wife can only clean up hers. Part of your side is how you allow her to treat you and your M with disrespect and disdain.

Time for you to man up and quit letting this slide. You can express yourself without yelling, so do it. As AJ always tells our DD when it's time for boldness, "Go get a pair.....of socks."

(It's only been in recent years that the kids realized that "a pair" didn't really mean socks.)

Ready,
I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you've seen the error of your ways and no longer practice AOs. We're working with your wife, if we can get through to her, the two of you stand every good chance of not only recovering, but having the best marriage you've had. I would love to see this marriage saved, hang in there!

reposting from the other thread:

Hi ReadyAbout, welcome to Marriage Builders. I can fully understand your desperation if you have been dealing with this for almost your entire marriage. It must be very hurtful when your spouse continues behavior she knows is hurtful. That means it is being done purposefully.

In the articles you have seen advising men not to leave their homes, that does not mean forever. Obviously, if you choose to divorce or separate, you would have to move. And keep in mind that Dr Harley does not believe in staying in loveless, abusive marriages. When a spouse refuses to stop hurting you and refuses to meet your needs, you are not obliged to stay in that marriage and continue to be abused.

I found this quote from Dr Harley that you might find helpful:

I hope your wife does make a decision to change, but if she doesn't, you have other options available and do not have to stay in a marriage with a spouse who treats you so badly.

So, basics;

What are you doing to avoid Love Busters?

What are your wife's top 5 emotional needs?

How much UA time are you getting?


What does your work situation look like? Days worked, hours worked, any travel?


I'll let other posters work with your answers, I've gotta get to bed.

HHH

To Avoid Love Busters.... I try to keep my mouth shut. I brought my W here to try and get others to tell her what I could not without working myself up. I actually train other men now in avoiding / working on avoiding / verbal abuse. I journal still almost every other day (for years it was every day) on a forum dedicated to eliminating angry outbursts / verbal abuse. I try to stay away from DJ's and I can't say I have stayed away from discussion of EA's etc. because the truth has never been told. I know that bringing it up is LB.
I don't think we have even 4 hours of UA per week. I try for more but W likes TV and that is not UA time.
Wife's top emotional need in my estimation is $$$ Money but she would write: Admiration but would agree that $$$ is in there.
Security is a big one. Honesty, & RC & Respect & attractive spouse (I have added 50 LB's in the last 3 years as the stress of the marriage has gotten to me) - even before that I would never be considered attractive. Pug nose, ruddy Irish face. I could never meet that need for attractive spouse no matter what.
SO me saying I need to get out of this hurts her (Security) even though that is not my intent.

I work six to seven days per week. I leave the house at six fifteen to six thirty (wife is still in bed). I return home by seven PM Mon - Fri and by 4 on Saturdays. I travel one or two days per month overnight usually leaving Sunday afternoon.

Lifestyle choices where I have enabled to happen have placed us in a financial prison where I cannot afford to have a reasonable job. Wife is full time student and Mom and works hard at those things. Fact is TheFlowerGirl has gardens that are the envy of an entire 400 home development. I am often envious. I try to water, hall the mulch and help where I can. Fact is, I work like a dog, I get treated like a dog where I work and I am not lazy at home. My hobby is sailing and I own a small sailboat that sat out of the water and unusued untouched the entire past two years until last weekend when I took time for myself and went and worked on it.
Probably answered more than you asked for. I believe TheFlowerGirl would agree with what I wrote.

As for me, at this point, I just remember how it was when my wife's face would light up when I came home. Now... I get called Dad when I come home and I think I am more of chore to be endured than anything else. We rarely play together. No vacation this summer (no money and work demands that would cost my job when there are not other jobs available to go to)but at least we had a winter vacation with a little bit of play but it was distorted and W was distant when we went this year. Year before vacation had grown kids with us and no time alone.
Of the two of us, I am the one with a romantic heart. Just and exhausted brain dump. Thank you for asking

Me: 57
She:51
DS: 13

And herein lies the problem, RA. You can't move onto the next steps until you do have the truth. This is one of the first steps in recovering from an affair, and you can't do the second steps until you have done the first steps. Harley doesn't tell people to not bring up an affair when the truth has not been told. He tells people to keep that problem on the front burner until the problem is resolved.

What happens to spouses who don't get the full truth is that they can't move forward from that spot. They stay stuck and their resentment grows and grows with each passing year.

RA, does Flowergirl have a way to support herself if you get divorced? Would she be able to afford your home?

You wrote:


RA, please stick to your thread.

You may not be asking for sympathy but you have empathy from me and countless others who have BTDT. Should you continue to post and/or read MB, there is much to learn even if your marriage does not survive. Personal recovery is important.

Prayers to you RA.

Stick around even if you decide to D. This site is great for helping no matter what the outcome.

This is going to have to end. You can't work these hours and have a healthy marriage. The travelling will have to end.

Can you cut your hours or change jobs?

hi RA. i got your metaphor of gone with the wind. you see, rhett trained up scarlett - he (hugely!) encouraged her bad behaviour and rewarded her when she was *very* naughty. then, later, he realised he had actually created a monster and was very unhappy with that outcome!

we do teach people how to treat us. by allowing all this IB and opposite-sex friendships, she has grown to believe they are all ok (and so does our popular culture, which explains why divorce is also so popular). although you have spoken out about them, you haven't actually implemented any consequences for her actions.

of course, rhett could have "retrained" scarlett. he could have, firstly, opened his darn mouth and communicated his actual needs. he could have reacted differently to her bad behaviour (instead of just, eventually, ignoring it) and rewarded good behaviour (with real love and not money). family time together could have been a real eye-opener for her. but, he let the damage be done until his LB$ was so far in the red all he could do was walk away.

your life is not a novel. you CAN turn this around. you CAN teach her how to treat you and your M in a healthy, romantic, loving way, IF she wants to remain married to you.

it's the IF that's the key. if she does, then you start, together, rebuilding your M to a healthy, mutually-enjoyable state. i hope she does, and that you both do.