Don't worry about carrying on. Your througough response gives me a lot to work with, and how you can shore things up on your end.

Thank you, sir.



Firstly, please make sure that while you are avoiding DJs and AOs, that you are NOT avoiding complaining. Ok?

Your next step in this process is to learn to complain effectively and respecfully.

My belief is that the shorter a complaint is, the less likely we are to lose our temper, and the less likely we are to make a disrespectful judgment. The next trick is avoiding making your complaint into a selfish demand.

So, how do we achieve this trifecta?

Well... let's go to the example of your wife having a neighbor help her with this gazebo.

Your complaint is exactly as follows; "I am not enthusiastic about that."

Bang. Done.

The only response that you will engage, is brainstorming alternatives to her proposal until you are BOTH enthusiastic about the solution.

Engaging in any debate or discussion about your lack of enthusiasm about her proposal is only an invitation for one or both of you to paddle up AO/DJ creek, smacking each other with your paddles.



You are correct about the TV, sir. The solution is to find mutually enjoyable activities to participate in which allow each of you to give the other their Undivided Attention, and which allow you to meet the needs of Recreational Companionship, Affection, Intimate Conversation, and Sexual Fulfillment.

As for the amount of UA time - that would be a goal for ONE DAY of the week, not an entire week. More on that later.



The 10 basline EN categories used here are; Admiration, Affection, Domestic Support (household duties, etc), Financial Support, Family Commitment, Physical Attractiveness, Conversation, Openness and Honesty, Recreational Companionship, and Conversation.

As far as security, my guess would be that she needs Admiration and Openness and Honesty to feel secure.

As far as your weight? As men, we are predisposed with our physiology to be able to pack on muscle with good weight training, muscle burns more calories, which often leads us to be able to burn fat faster. You do face a challenge here, though. More on that later.



This here, sir, is presenting a major obstacle to the survival of your marriage. I am not trying to desparage you here. I understand. I work a baseline of 6 days/48 hours a week, and it usually goes up from there. Since March of this year, the I've had maybe three weeks where I worked 40 hours or less - and those weeks usually included taking time off of work.

Your work situation leaves the only remaining time of the day (after travel, meals, etc) to be the very end of the day, when you are both very tired. It's understandable (to a degree) that your wife is only interested in watching TV - and I would be surprised if you would be interested in getting out of the house for 3-4 hours. After all, this would see you getting home at 10-11pm, with another day of work at 6AM ahead. You can do it, for sure, but it likely isn't very appealing to either of you. I would suggest you make a go here; try to find some activities, and get out 3 times a week like this. If it isn't sustainable, more radical action will be needed.

The other issue is your overnight travel. The base recommendation for maintaining romantic love in a marriage - most especially in a post-infidelity marriage - is to never spend the night apart. There are two solutions here; 1) Never do overnight travel again, or 2) arrange for your wife to go with you on your trips.




This may fall on deaf ears... but, here it goes anyway; stuff, things, possessions... won't give you a romantic marriage that will last the rest of your life. And, even though you state that Financial Support is one of your wife's most important needs, meeting that need should not come at a total detriment to the rest of your marriage. She cannot share romantic love with her garden. A marigold cannot show her affection. A daffodil is a poor provider of family commitment. And, unless you have some strange paraphelia, your sailboat isn't going to be a very satisfying lover (imagine the splinters!).

Things can be replaced - your spouse can't (or shouldn't... depends on if you value your marriage and vows).

I'm sure if the two of you sat down and brainstormed some strategies, wiggle room in the finances - or even wide-open opportunities - could be made.


Well, bud... I hate to break it to you, but your wife's face doesn't light up when you come home because she is likely not in love with you.

Of course, if you are familiar with this program, you know that her not being in love with you isn't due to destiny or fairy dust - it's due to a low balance in her love bank for you.

I've got some simple additional strategies for you to help you fill up that love bank, but I think I've given you a large load to digest as it is. Keep reading. Keep posting. The cavalry is here.

Oh, to add; your weight won't likely go anywhere with that work schedule, and if it does you would be meeting the need of Physical Attraction at the cost of potential UA time - a potential you cannot afford to waste as it is.

I have been following this thread and I just wanted to ask what his next steps would be, after he told her "I am not enthusiastic about a neighbor coming over to put up the gazebo", if she just ignored him? How would he respond then? Would he not bring it up again, to avoid an AO or other LB? But then...the wife would likely think everything "blew over" and she would continue doing things her own way

If she continues doing things her own way, she does so at her own peril - actions taken with no regard to your spouse will erode their LB$ balance. RA cannot control her actions, but he can simply communicate his feelings about them.

The shorter and simpler the better.


A simple response could be; "I would love it if you would not take action unless we are in enthusiastic agreement."

Plan B is the answer even when there is no A

IF

a spouse persists in damaging behavior

AND

all reasonable attempts to bring this problem to their attention and find resolution have failed.

I just managed to lose a long post. I need to go to a meeting. But, thank you all.
You will all laugh at my idiotic thoughts but I just wish you were all telling me I was wrong. I hear the comments that I am an enabler. Trhying to get past that.

Thank you all.
My last post had a messge for each of you I just don't have time to put it back here now.

Me: 57
She:51
DS: 13

Hi RA, glad you have your own thread going

So many times in life we need a,"Word in season"

The right word or thought expressed to us, even though we have heard them before, at the right season in our lives. Then it clicks the synapses in our brain

Lots of posters here giving lots of important information, philosphys, and insight. There is no time like the present to enact change, but change comes slowly as we have to condition ourselves to accept truths that we just don't want to

I am at a loss for words because I feel that the same situation somewhat mimics mine years ago, and I don't know what to say to help. I know exposure and standing up for yourself works, and I know how tough that is to do. That was all I did right towards the recovery of my marriage, the rest has been the story of false recovery, and the pain you are feeling also

Just wanted to say hi and tell you that this site is dedicated to people and thir recovery, and the rules of emotional engagement, cover all human beings.

Hope you hang around and find some peace for yourself

Your W is VERY wayward, RA.

When a poster mentions things that point to a SSL (secret second life) in their background but then when responding to posters will talk about everything under the sun but their own problems with dishonesty, especially when confronted with it, this is a BIG RED FLAG that there is something still being hidden IMHO (actually I see it here on the boards over and over again).

Does she have any further contact (this includes anything, even if they are FB friends) with the OM from her first M?

Have you ever asked for a poly with regards to these EAs that she denies?

Sorry you are going through this. I lived thru years of being gaslit by my WxH with regards to his opposite sex relationships ~ so I really do understand the turmoil you have been going through.

Man I'm sorry has happened to me too.."Now what did I say at the time it seemed so important...?"

NP take the meeting it will come to you

Yes Gaslighting, there is something familiar about that and your sitch.

She is severe enough in her fogginess that I, too, would strongly recommend a poly prior to any attempts at recovery.

If what you know is only the tip of the iceburg, that's the best way of getting to the bottom of stuff.

Please read these.
Please explain gaslighting
Polygraph Testing

Thank you for the posts.
I am not angry with my wife.
I feel sad. Tragic. I refuse to be a victim.
I have not way to change her.
She will not change by herself or for me.
Sometimes I wonder how wonderful it must be to be loved by someone so much that they will fundamentally change for love.
I am going to muse for a moment. Feel free not to read.
As I posted on my TheFlowerGirls thread (erroneously), yesterday, I learned the hard way what an EA was in my first marriage. I learned that there are friendly people who can suck you right in to their "admire me" club for their own purposes. And I thankfully made the right move and changed jobs and got away. But I allowed being friendly with a woman at work to stir emotions in me. I can readily see how having a "feeling" of emotion for someone of the opposite sex at work, in the community, neighborhood robs a marrige. Who can compete with fantasy?
I did not go very far in my EA in my first marriage. Thankfully I can at least write that. I somehow knew it was wrong and I distanced myself. How weird can it get... I became a friend of the woman's husband and distanced myself. But I remember the emotion. I remember knowing whatever I was feeling was wrong. And yet I ohad pened myself up to it just by accepting friendly treatment from a woman at work.
And that was where I was wrong.
Today I look back and am embarrassed, ashamed and hate myself for having had it happen. But at least I know why it happened. And I sometimes comfort myself that I knew enough to get away from that woman.
I tried to be a good husband in that marraige and I chose the right path when I started to go down the wrong one, but I did not have access to all of Dr. Harley's information. It felt good when I found his books 20 years later. He awakened me to angry outbursts. He explained what happened to me and I at least did most of the right things back then (that is distance myself as soon as I felt an emotional connection). BUT even today I feel sad and guilty for having those emotional tugs when I was married. Did what I did set the stage for my first wife to fall in love with my best friend? (course he isn't now). That happened much later but who knows?
I lost everything. My children suffered. Today all i know is that The damage an EA does to a marriage is so obvious to me now. Just as It was the day I found the OTT Valentine written to my wife (years before we were married)by her married boss.
I can't make my wife feel my shame. Or my understanding or guilt. I can't make myself even feel clean about it.
Maybe that is why I have tolerated the male friends thing for so long but really not tolerated in our marriage.

Last night TheFlowerGirl was asked a lot of questons. She is willing to take the MB on line course. Naturally I screwed up and said that would just be to shut me up and not because she
saw something in it.
I relate to TheFlowerGirl because I have loved her for so many years. And truth be told she is so completely naiive to the world in so many ways. Someitmes her childlike behaviors are endearing and bring out the protector in me.
Its all tearing me apart.
Is it wrong for me to want to feel loved and feel secure? I know it isn't wrong.
I literally don't know what to do.
Reading some of the links is helpful.
Do I try the on line program?
I just don't know if there is any point when she has no empathy.

Me: 57
She:51
DS: 13

Constant Process:
I hope you find this thread of mine.
I read your comments about my enabeling.
You may be 100% right.
But in my hobby sailing there is an old saying...
(It refers to sailboats having the right of way over power boats)
"He was right, dead right as he sailed along. But he's just as dead as if he were wrong." Picture the 14 foot sailboat sailing across the bow of a destroyer....
I am responsible for a family. I will agree I have enabled. I will agree I have rescued.
I will agree I am being driven crazy by the situation.
I will even agree that it is completely clear that TheFlowerGirl has defenses that the Pentagon needs to investigate because of their incredibly resilient nature....
Plan B or Plan D both have unintended consequences on my son, and on my family and TheFlowerGirl's family.
I know I can't enable but I also know that you can be right with what you write but that you can also sail across the bow of a destroyer that can't move out of your way.
Its not as easy as just one two three.
Its very hard.
So if I ask for some softness in treating TheFlowerGirl...
maybe that is wrong.
That might not be rescuing her this time.
It just might be steering away from the oncoming bow of the ship instead of claiming the "right of way."

TheFLowerGirl and I at least toalked last night.
Maybe that's just gaslighting.
I guess that is the hard part.
The Polygraph needs to happen so if I got anything out of todays posts... I know that comes next.
Trouble with that is....
I already pretty much know the answers and the Poly will just lead to more denials.
So where does that get me?

Me: 57
She:51
DS: 13

If she is willing to go through the online course, I would give it a try. Maybe Dr Harley can get through to her. But she should be aware of Dr Harley's stance on opposite sex friendships. Will she think him "mean" and "cruel" when he tells her they are dangerous?

RA,

My H and I highly recommend the online course. It provides accountability and structure and a coach who can target issues. You can work through the coursework at your own pace. Generally, we spent a week to ten days on each lesson.

One of the biggest things was the UA worksheet. We filled it out for something like 70+ straight weeks. One of the things we identified was that if we did not get at least 15 hours of UA each week, we both felt bad. I see from your earlier posts that you and your wife spend almost no time together. To work the online program, that will have to change.

Stop lovebusting. Your comment about your wife's mention of the online course is a DJ. It seems as though you commit other LBs as well. Learn to stop them.

Regarding the empathy: The more we progressed through the program, the more empathy my H showed.

AM

She doesn't have empathy yet because she does not understand

If she believes someone might know more about you from an objective point of view, she will listen and believe it, she could develop empathy, which could lead to bonafide sympathy in time

Yes I am talking about symathy for each other and that emotional connection you are looking for, where even the thought of hurting you hurts her and is scary

Take what you can and do the online course, and/or counsel again.

All you can do is hope she gets it, a mans strong protective emotions, that are designed by nature to protect his woman from other men and harm

If she does not get it in time, you know the drill.

You did well sending her stubborn butt here, for yourself and your family, which if you are like most men, means everything

RA, if FG is willing to do the online course, please do. my H, once upon a time, was a totally selfish, hardbitten [censored]. i never thought he would be able to change, and foolishly let myself believe that our M was what it was - that i had to settle. he was totally withdrawn. but after several years hard work, he HAS changed, and for the better. he can't even believe the way he used to be. and our M is much better for it. UA time is KEY.

it will help FG realise that M isn't just having your own needs met; it's caring enough about your spouse to want to change and meet their needs, and keep them safe and secure in the M.

granted, the path to recovery is not easy, but it can be done. i wish you well.

Read About,

This is where you failed, as did I. You have not educated Flower Girl or as Steve Harley told me 'trained' her. He said be careful about doing both because a person like my W, and your Flower Girl, want to believe everybody is good, everybody is honest, no one wants to cheat you, and everybody should be trusted. They wake up every day with a wonderful outlook of world, and go to bed each night the same way. The Flower Girl wants to think this way, and she has every right to do so. S. Harley said not to change her in this regard. However, you must educate her on the male/female aspect: boundaries. Since coworkers, family, friends, neighbors, etc as you said have wonderful relationships with her, as she does with them, it is a slow awakening process. Steve Harley said be careful too, because you can drive her away since she is entitled to a positive wonderful outlook on life and people in general.

Steve Harley said I have a different view, so I should not necessarily force that view on my W. I believe everyone is evil, it is just when, where, how and/or whom. That is the devil in everyone. My view then is you plan for the worst and hope for the best. Flower Girl and my W's view is expect the best and don't think or plan for the worst.

RA, you are at fault here as am I for not doing the education part. Granted it does appear that Flower Girl is quite naive about the boundaries. She also needs to be informed and understand the 'nature of the beast' so to speak. After Steve Harley had a private session with my wife we were to talk about boundaries in more detail. I started giving examples, thoughts, etc, which a positive action by her with a man results in a more positive action on the part of a male acquaintance. I started running through scenarios and they became exhaustive. I then gave an example of always viewing as if I was there standing by her. If so, would that comment have been made to her, or whatever. That helped some, but it truly is an education process, with Flower Girl being the one that must learn. If she is unwilling to do so which is understand and recognized the boundaries that need to be in place, you will be continually hurt and harmed going forward. It will continue to take much mental toll on you. Good Luck