What's Wrong with Unconditional Love?




However, one does not have to fundamentally change.

What they have to do is; 1) understand that marriage is not set upon unconditional love, but is an invitation based on the expectation of the reciprocity of love 2) that maintaining love means acknowledging that all actions and decisions we make effect a) the love we have for our spouse, b) the love our spouse has for us.

When we fail to uphold the condition of reciprocity in the invitational nature of marriage, we give implicit permission for that invitation to be revoked (divorce).

At work for the last hour, and under a deadline to produce a major work product by noon tomorrow (I have a flight out to deliver the information), I cannot spend much time here. I admit it was a repulsive DJ to tell my wife the online program wouldn't make any difference. I allowed myself to get caught up in frustration that "she doesn't get it" and instead "I blew an opportunity to create common ground."
Probably typical of me in some respects.
Once I opened the dam and asked for answers to questions I have been holding back, it also became hard to hold back the emotions tied to the questions. But I know that is no excuse.
I have read every post on both threads. I have tried to read all links and as you may know I have read HNHN, LB, & the others. The books have gone missing in a move from our old home about a year ago. We tried a Marriage Counselor using Harvey Hendrix stuff last summer fall. It failed when I could not stand the lack of empathy whenever I brought up wife's behavior.
For me, the frustration I can live with, even the unhappiness I can live with (nobody ever told me to expect life to be fair). But the fear of EA's and what they have already done to me... I cannot control anylonger. The EA's were and are responsible for me being left alone in this marriage for more than a decade. Often I have been just surviving and keeping the family afloat. I had to make that my priority. I lived for al week of vacation every year and tried my best to make it on that.
But its the loneliness that I remember most. Listening to my wife laugh and giggle on the phone with her girl friends, listening to my wife talk with her ex-husband four times a week "about the kids"(by the way that stopped finally)....
Always listening to her pleasure in others while listening to the critical comments about my weight, my posture, my kids from my first marriage. It became so very lonely.
Requests for "dates" ignored for years. Listening to her set visitation schedules with her ex-husband for her kids when they were younger without consulting me despite my please to do so...
It was just so lonely. And I was so busy keeping my job.... I could barely look up.
Even today, if I lost my job, I believe my marriage would end. Her need for financial support is that great.
I accept that. But belive me, jobs like mine are not things you find at age 57.
So I accept that I was born to be a provider for others.
I accept that if I chose a job with a smaller income that my wife would leave me.
I CHOSE.
The unconscious mind I have directed me to do the following this morning....
I left my sleeping wife a handwritten letter.
I asked her for one week to set aside her feelings and instead make a conscious effort in everything she thinks, says and does to place herself in my shoes. I gave her several examples of how she does not remember things that there is evidence of such as tape recorded conversations, phone call logs etc. that she has done. I asked that instead of she trying to disprove them that she simply WRITE down how I might feel about them.
And I told her that I believe if she cannot do this for one week that I have no hope implying that there is not reason to remain in the marriage.
And I told her to expect that I may only have two hours home tonight because that is true. I must get this work out. And I must leave tomorrow at noon. I will be back Tuesday. And I would not expect to be away overnight again for several months. I must not blow the job that feeds my family when I have no alternative job to go to.
And I know that I should see if wife will take the on line course. That probably should have been my first objective. Instead I wanted a homerun instead of just getting to first base in this case.
Thank you.

Me: 57
She:51
DS: 13

What I see is that you have wasted alot of time with failed marriage programs. I wish you would have gone through Marriage Builders, because it would have made a huge difference. Did you know that IMAGO did not even work for Harville Hendrix's own marriage? It can't work because it is based on the principle of sacrifice. Here is what Harley says about it:

here

So, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE sign up for the MB online program. Your marriage needs the daily help you can recieve from Dr Harley and your coach in order to learn new habits. You both have very bad habits that have damaged your marriage so much.

I also think it would be beneficial for Dr Harley and his coach to work with your wife and help her overcome her independent behavior. The MB course might very well be the thing that can turn your marriage around.

I see you as getting in the way of your own marriage. You use DJs, enable, and fail to set boundaries and consequences. Get some help getting on the right track, yes, do enroll in the on line course. Do cut back on work and spending $ (whether you or her that's doing it) and start spending quality time with wife. Get rid of the tv if necessary. If she is unwilling to make any changes, I'd go to Plan B, but do a solid Plan A first. Instead of worrying about how a Plan A would affect your son, consider how this marriage has and is affecting him. When there is pent up resentment and frustration in the parents, trust me, the kids know it.

I think they did counseling with DR H before Mel, and work time among other things got it the way.

Yes RA, you are working so hard, to preserve your marriage, OUTSIDE of the home, when the real problems and rewards are at home.

Reminds me of myself, and more extremely my Dad... My Dad was what I came to realize, "Penny wise and pound foolish". Many people fall victim to this, he would get up at 6:30 every day, work at something, eat dinner before he went to work at his primary job at G. E., at 3 pm, come home to bed at 12 at night, and because that was not enough, had work that weekend too.
Poor hygiene was only dealt with at the insistence of work and others around him, and yes, he worked like a fool. All his relationships where he was forced to have patientiace and act responsibly, and have any stucture, were at work, so naturally, and let's not forget nature plays a big part in all relations ships, he developed a relationship with a woman at work.
The job, whitch was so important to him, was also his God and gave him that sense of purpose, and also a structure, but at the expense of his family.
My Mom did nothing do deserve that treatment, but we loved and respected him anyways, and held hope because my Mom, who taught Sunday school, and worked all her life, went to counseling for years to get help, but Dad wouldn't come. My Mom was not interested in other men, never dated even after the divorce, not ever had sex with another man her whole life except my Dad. She still is a sharp, friendly awesome woman at 83, takes care of herself and drives around, and she knows sex is for marriage only.

Well wanted to make myself clear on those things, just to set up the example about "Penny wise pound foolish", my Dad was.

I worked cleaning pallets that my Dad scavenged from the local dump, just about every day along with many other chores I had as young men should have, from the age of 9 years old. We built a garage, filled the attic of that garage, and had two stacks of lumber about 20X20x10 feet in size saved at a site a couple miles away from us by the time I was 15.

Dad would not pay the money to cover them with good tarps, even though all that work went into it, and insisted they be covered by tarps full of holes, to small, and didn't fit with no way to hold them down.

The wood rotted as he lost interest in the mess he created and his mind could just not grasp what was really important was at home all along.

Work isn't the answer, I know you ge

I don't think they have ever gone through the course or counseled with Dr Harley. I believe they had a couple of sessions with STEVE. The online course gives them a much more hands on approach that I think they need. Steve is a great counselor, but the online course gives them the comprehensive approach they need.

Sorry posting from I phone

I know you get that work isn't the answer, UA time is. Dr H and I am sure many have pointed this out, and that you get that also.

The structure of MB is also hope for you guys. If both of you do what is laid out in the program, and really do it, just as said, you will change even at the very core of who you are, every relationship you have will find it's proper place in life, and you WILL become one force together in this life.

That's what marriage is for anyways right? Or did I miss that somewhere?

If both of you don't get it yet that time is short, and now is the time for radical changes that will affect the life you live, and the importance of each others emotional needs, at least one of you can before this marriage is over.

I would like to see you guys have a marriage where nobody can get between you without a bloody nose being the end result. Of course in this world ya can't give the dogs chasing your wife for inappropriate attention a bloody nose, oh that's so mean and barbaric,"Can't we all just get along?"
Heck no not without rules

So do the online course, remember that there are males that respect those rules that God, or if you will, the powers that be, set up, and your wife will be safe for a time anyways with those characters such as Dr H and his wife, and many male posters here also who respect the rules that really teach us not TP be victims to our own nature, and both of you go all out with those rules and the wisdom of the teachings.

If only one of you "gets it" (man I hate that saying lol but I get it), then it's a win in my book. You can't save them all

Oops sorry Mel, wrong sentiment, and I know it is possible to save them all, if they will be taught something new

Like many who have come here and tried the program, but not really done what has been laid out, counselled once or twice, and have cherry picked what they wanted and it didn't fit into thier busy lives, the program might not have," Worked for them" I agree that most don't give it time, and it takes two. Two enthusiastically involved and responsible

I am going to stay off TFGs thread, because the last thing RA needs, is to be compared to some other guy, with all the damage that has been done to the male ego. We all know the story, "Why can't you be like Blah Blah, he understands boo-hoo" Comparison has messed them up enough already, let the pros do thier job

The quote did note state that I knew they didn't stay the course and that's obvious because MB does work, if you give it time and do what is said. There's the crux is it not? Like they say in any overcomes meeting of any kind, "So what your doing isn't working out? How about doing something different?", or we can quote the popular Dr Phil,"How's that workin out for ya?"

My opinion is that there is hope for them but in the end it is up to them, and how much they want a good marriage.

Do you agree Mel?

She left her first marriage due to infidelity. She has a serious character flaw, and Dr. Harley says drastic EP's must be in place for these kinds of serial cheaters. She has spent her entire adult life looking to any man for her need for admiration.

In order for her to protect you and keep you safe she will need to

Never be around opposite sex men without you present
100% NO CONTACT will all MEN who met her emotional needs outside of marriage (Ex-husband and first OM included)
Get rid of all Social Media
Get rid of her cell phone
Incorporate 100% radical honesty in the marriage


She is 51 years old and has likely spent the last 35+ years with inappropriate boundaries. You WILL NEVER be safe if she does not have iron clad EPs. There will be no hope in saving this marriage. She will continue to abuse you for the rest of your life.

@ Godgiveme
God I hope not
She is healthy, and already established this pattern, and has everybody included her gaslit H and probably most importantly herself, convinced she has done no wrong. What's stopping her?
Well everything will come to light and she is child of this age. The 60s the me generation of the 70s, it all fits into this society WE have built.

But the rules laid out for good marriages were written long ago, and they still work, as long as they are understood and not misconstrued by mankind.

God I hope that he doesn't take this to much longer, and that she follows recovery as laid out by MB
Only God knows

x2

Add a lack of empathy, independent behavior and a high EN of FS...oof.

ah, RA, what are you doing? you had a great idea there, but you sure blew it with those DJs!

yes, getting up and running with the online course (though i think you guys need immediate coaching to get started) should have been your goal.

i don't see what you thought was going to be a homerun? telling your W that you would like her to try something new, then hamstringing her by saying you don't think she has it in her to do it, was not a good way to run anywhere at all, never mind around the ballpark. where's your carrot in this? i don't see you working on your side of the street here. did i misconstrue?

look, we ALL know how it is to be starting out with such an incredibly low LB$, and feeling like it isn't worth it anymore. this is where the hard work starts! do you want to try to recover your M? if so, you need to start working it the MB way, not the RA way.

Hey guys and gals.... I do appreciate your time and effort in posting. Believe it or not in the 9 years between marriages I actually walked away from a bad selection. It was not easy for about 3 months and then I never looked back. But of course I did not have a son. I had not made a commitment.
So here is my clear statement: I will take direction and even sharp objects in my chest. BUT I will NOT be very happy with anyone who wants to fire at will at my wife. That is my job (LOL and just trying to find a reason to make light in the face of what is really a tragedy) Obviously I have a problem still with DJ's or at least right now I do.
Just for the record... if any of you think I like my work hours or that I get off on my job, you are DJing me and I would appreciate it if beyond pointing out the obvious that the hours are bad for the marriage....
You haven't walked in my shoes and you would not walk away from your job if it meant your family would go hungry. A job change in the future? Possible. Maybe in six months to a year. In the short term. Can't be done without adding to the stress that is already enough. Decision made.
As for my wife making mistakes in her first marriage? I already know that. Is your point she can never learn?
Well that is my fear. It really is.
RIght now that is how it looks.
And that is a hard truth.
And I wonder if the On line Course is a waste of time when there is a spouse who has no empathy.
I don't believe Dr. H has found a cure for that.
And I am tired of getting my hopes up.
Polygraph? What is the point? I already know. That is the scary part. Handed incontrovertible evidence of phonecalls to an OM, my wife responds (finally after two years plus) this morning "I do shee how you must feel. I would be upset to. I can't help it though if I can't remember calling."
And sadly, I believe her. She has an unbelieveable ability to forget what she has done when she has done something wrong. I have seen it for 15 years. And the funny thing is... when I was train men who are verbally abusive (as I once was), I often ask their wives to carry a tape recorder. Sometimes a guy will "lose it" and go off and then literally not remember that he F bombed his wife. Truly. Then she plays the tape recorder for me and to him. I start making the analogy that when she gets angry with me she might set out angrily to find an EA target. I know that is a crazy fear, but really... it makes sense sometimes.
And I am terrified of what awaits me when she reads this post.
But honest I will be.
I have many more hours of work today. She will be in bed by the time I get home.
Before I get more advice about job change etc....
I have been looking steadily for two years.
At least I am not deployed like my son once was.
There is the ideal and then there is reality.
Anyone want to tell me I can't try MB if my time is this limited? Cause that is not what I heard from Steve H. when I counseled with him (times 14 session btw).
Guess I am cranky.
Trying people. Will bring up MB program. But I am not hopeful.
The day I see tears for me... I would be hopeful.
I don't believe I will ever see them.
That takes love.
And it is the one thing I have almost never had and so badly wish I did.

Me: 57
She:51
DS: 13

RA the sarcasm and DJ's are not helping the situation. I have walked in your shoes, and read your story because you were very much like me. I used AO's and DJ's for years towards my XWH. It was the worst thing of my life, and my marriage is over because of it.

From being here for some time ... I have read many many stories identical to yours. Your situation just like the thousands on here the 40+ years of Dr. Harley resemble most of us. You are not unique and your wife is just another run of the mill WW.

If you want help, I would begin with cleaning up your side of the fence. You have your own set issues to deal with. Your WW is her own worse nightmare. I would let her clean up her side of the fence as well.

People can change and waywards (some of the worst) can change as well ... Read the recovery thread to see how some of the worst waywards have turned their life around and become amazing spouses.

The issue here is your WW, Flower, is not repentant, remorseful, or empathetic about her adultery. She has been like this most of her adult life. That is quite a tough bad habit to change. It is her character. When we advise her it is because she is identical to the thousands we have seen. When we advise you it is because you resemble the thousand other betrayed spouses we have seen before you.

Your enabling behavior has fed this monster, and your marriage is now in shambles. Actually I would call it dead, done, over. It is based on lies, thoughtlessness, and years of deceit. I am not sure there is anything to save.

I suggest you read SAA combined with Lovebusters ... over and over and over again. Take notes and study as if it is your final.

Your own independent behavior, i.e. work, will continue to just fuel this dead marriage. Your house has burnt down and you still insist on keeping the open fire burning. Why, because it is the only thing keeping you warm at night?

If you want to save this marriage, then you will heed the good docs advice on this very narrow path.

For starters all ... I mean all Lovebusters have to cease to exists. You need to fully grasp POJA and PORH. Once you are able to do this from your side of the fence, then maybe your, WW, will want to join you. For now you have your own set of issues to correct. Like someone said, this is a bad marriage full of very bad habits.

The nice thing about habits ... they can change and often they only need a short of amount of time.

Your WW needs every 2x4 she's gotten and then some. Truly, they are swung in love.

How many hours a week do you work?

You won't know unless you try, though. At this point, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. So far you have really not tried anything that could have been effective, ie: IMAGO. You tried Steve Harley but she refused to continue with him. With the online course, her coach would be in contact with her and could work with her. Additionally, you can post directly to Dr Harley and she could read his posts.

What do you have to lose? Nothing.

And I so agree that your wife needs to hear every 2x4 she gets. She has been so insulated in her bubble that she is out of touch with reality. It is good for her to hear how others percieve her.

RA, I fully understand the urge to step in and protect her, but that is not in her best interest. She really needs to hear the perspective of others.

I see your point ML. I need to try the course.




Me: 57
She 51
DS: 13