All of the line items should have been covered by the LBQ, which Z said they were supposed to do during coaching, but iirc, it wasn't mentioned how that turned out on this thread. It specifically asks, "What does he typically do?"

Being verbose is a problem that Z has mentioned her H sees as one of her issues (in not so polite terms). I think she did pretty well on the paragraphs, considering! To be brutally honest, I was expecting many more feeling words than she provided.

Right now the issue appears to be that she wants to separate and he says it's over if they do that. So they're at a standoff. Perhaps Mr. Z is bluffing (lawd knows how many times my H bluffed divorce), but it will be easier on all involved if Z is prepared to stand her ground and say, "Yes, I ended it. I ended my marriage because it was no longer tolerable to me." I don't think anyone would fault her for that, for walking away from an abuser.

I really hope she can say that instead of what she previously revealed, that she hoped he would leave so it could be his fault. Don't come from a place of weakness and victim, Z. Lemme tell you a little story from the end of my first marriage. We were in a huge life-threatening altercation. My exH was beating me with the butt of a shotgun. I managed to fight my way into the kitchen and grabbed a knife. A big one. I also grabbed the phone, and dialed 911. The police showed up to find me on the phone with the 911 operator with the knife against XHs throat. They took it away from me, took me (both of us, actually) to jail, and asked me a bunch of questions (Do you feel suicidal? Me: No. Probably a bit homicidal. Do you know how you would handle this differently in the future? Me: Yeah, I'd actually stab him if I thought I would go to jail anyway), they laughed, released me to get my ribs checked out, took the money from his wallet and gave it to me and told me to leave town. They kept him for three more days so I could go. I showed up back to my hometown with black eyes and cracked ribs. This was over overcooked green beans. And I still had to fight him after I moved 3k miles from him. He followed me. I never played victim. I saved my life. I was a freaking hero. When he got here and I called the cops, they came, because they knew if they didn't do something, I would.

Eventually he left me alone and ended up in prison.

"I will not tolerate your BS" is a strong stand. Make it, if you feel confident it is the right thing to do.

cwmi, thanks for sharing your story, that's pretty awesome that you came from that point to where you are now with your family. Your kids have a life totally removed from all that, you are giving them a beautiful legacy with memories to treasure I wish my mom had made a new life like that.

Z, I write a post to Ship, would you please take a look? You asked us to consider Mr. Z is reading, and that's my post to you all too.

CWMI, I appreciate this post from you so much! Thank you.

This is where I've arrived (finally), and you articulated it perfectly. You're right, what I said before (wishing he would end it) was unrealistic hogwash. I feel stronger now, more able to stand my ground and say whether this is tolerable for me or not.

What bothers me now is that my H is "giving in." I don't want that (and I'm not letting it happen). I want him to be himself, to be honest about his perspective - just respectful of mine - and we can work together. First, it's not sustainable (no Giver will last forever). Second, I don't want to gain at his expense! ick. I hope he figures out how to live with his Giver and Taker at the same time.

I read it, thanks! I'll go back and review.

Z, are you sure it's 'giving in'? I was pretty elated when my H (current H, not the convict, lol) 'gave in' and 'relented' to put our marriage first. It's what you both would have to do, regardless of whether you feel like it or if it lines up with 'who you are' (or think you are).

You'll find your best self inside of a committed, compassionate joining with another. We are constantly changing human beings, and 'who we are' really comes out when we have a constant companion who doesn't just complement 'us', but challenges us--to think of the greater good rather than just ourselves and what feels good in the moment; to recognize when we're being stupid or lazy or phoning it in; to be a better 'us'.

So I don't know if Mr. Z is really 'giving in' or if you should even look at it that way. Maybe he's simply learning a new way to be. I know it took my H a long time to adjust to a new way to be, and he wasn't very enthusiastic from the start. He said he felt manipulated by MB. But he still takes Steve's advice, and we haven't talked to Steve in a couple of years! He learned the value of considering someone else (me) by forcing himself to do it regardless of whether he wanted to or not. He 'gave in' and got. kwim?

Hm, ok. I'll have to think about this. Sometimes it's hard to tell.

He'll express his POV then later say, "I don't really care, it's more important that you get your way."

That's when I have an issue: it should be a mutually enthusiastic decision. I don't want "my way." I want "our way."

are you writing things down in the notebook with the smiley face that Dr Harley recommended?

Sometimes my husband will agree with an idea I have, but not sound enthusiastic. If I sense that, I'll ask, "enthusiastic agreement", and he'll either say "yes" (hesitant tone was due to something else), or "no, I guess not", and we go back to negotiating.

So maybe if he says, "I don't care", you have to tell him you do care and would like to write it down in the notebook and work on a solution you are both enthusiastic about.

Good call, Emilyann. We were walking and talking and didn't have the notebook at the time. We have an "appointment" to negotiate today about the issue.

My H has been very kind this week, and very apologetic. He:

Listened to me tell a vacation story yesterday
Told me one of his stories
Helped me trim dead stuff off the trees
Made me coffee this morning
Was considerate during our walk yesterday
Apologized when he got a little belligerent
Is journaling and finding it very helpful
Helped me clean up my son's room (back to school organization)
Is telling me what he wants: a hug, a kiss, etc
Is asking me "how I'd feel" about things
Listened when I had a complaint
Is seeking information about healthy relationships, abuse/control

...all this is encouraging over the past 4 days. I thank him for his efforts, express genuine appreciation, and make sure I am keeping my side clean.

Only time will tell.

I'm so glad Zhamila!

Me too.

Thanks, Anointed.

OK, so today I feel like a hypocrite.

My H has said "all the right things" - the I'm sorrys, the I'll eliminate AO's, the I want to have a great marriage. He's also been very nice for the past 6 days (no AOs, considerate, we even negotiated 2 things in a pleasant, safe manner).

I still feel stuck. I don't want to be around him much lately, I just want to be alone and heal (like play piano, read, look out the window by myself).

I guess I thought his apology and effort would 'fix' everything. Maybe I just need to allow more time. But I also don't want him to get frustrated, waiting.

Then again, 6 days isn't very long, is it.

And I went back and read my thread from the beginning (some of it).

You guys are smart, and I feel dumb. I have a long way to go to really grasp it all.

Penni, I think I missed this before. Thank you.

Thank you for this, Melody. I missed it the first time.

I so appreciate your feedback and I'm reading it over and over.

And...we get the mail together now. It's working!!

Zhamila, if he is doing all the right things, I would jump right back in there and start bonding with him again. The sooner you do this, the sooner you will feel bonded to him.

...and I went back and read all the stuff about how I must control my words. (AOs, the way I word my complaints, etc)

I am working on this daily. And making sure I don't offer solutions....only voice respectful complaints.

I'm working on doing my part (other than avoiding him - that's still where I am wimpiest), considering his feelings, making sure I always ask "how would you feel..." etc. It feels good to do the right thing. Then I take breaks from interaction every once in a while. Short Bus MB indeed.

I agree with Melody, go start bonding. As you start to feel safer and spend more time concentrating on the intimate needs, you will start to miss him and crave that attention.

I remember reading/hearing (?) Dr Harley talk about spending UA time meeting intimate needs can feel "artificial" at the beginning, because your love bank is low-- you really don't want to do it, which sounds so much like where you are now. But he and so many posters here are evidence that if you can do it despite not wanting to, you will build up your love bank, and build an awesome marriage.

In fact, I'm listening to the radio show from Friday on reruns now, and he's talking about giving it 3 months. He talks about during the time of love bank deposits building up, the feeling of love will come and go, until it comes back strongly. (Maybe if brain is reading this, she can post the link to that segment? I have no idea how to do it, or I would myself)

Sounds like something you can do. I think the hard thing is believing it can happen even when you don't emotionally feel like it would be possible. But I think you have it in you to do it! Rooting for you and your husband!

Big hugs Zhamila. Hang in there.