Well, we have had a good week. I think that one of his emotional needs is recreational companionship and his recreation is fixing stuff. So this weekend he was on call but got to come home and just answered calls from home after church so he worked on wiring the shop and the lights and wiring the electrical connection, installing the box for the rv plug. So, I went out and helped him. We talked quite a bit and we talked about the church turmoil which is killing me, so we sort of got two emotional needs met since I believe conversation is one of mine. ***edit***

The next day he brought me flowers. I continued to help him. You should have seen him now that it is finished. He was so proud showing me how everything is wired and technically explaining it.. ( To be honest, I don't care and don't understand but what I do care about is how happy working on this project has made him this week! But I gave him tons of words of admiration. ) We enjoyed ourselves that night. ( Read between the lines)

I have printed off the emotional needs questionairre. My plan this weekend is to talk to him about how I am still bothered by his earlier comment that he thought I cared more about the church or some friends than him. I remember this book we did at church and think that maybe I was missing meeting his emotional needs. Would he mind taking this questionairre and we can talk about it after our budget discussion this weekend. ( Don't worry. Although I know that financial issues can be a hot spot for many couples it has never been one for us. We are both savers and planners so we always pretty much agree. I will just show him where we went over in the budget, where we saved. We automatically have things put into various savings accounts. So no stress there.) I know him and he will ask if I am going to fill one out as well. So we will talk about mine as well. After going over the answers I was going to suggest this:

I know that you like to work on projects. ( We'll see after the questionairre but I think they are his recreation.) But what if we take some of your time off and 1/2 the time you get to work on a project and the other 1/2 we just go have fun!!! This week he hasn't had any headaches and has been happier and I have to wonder if it isn't because we were happier. He just doesn't rest or have fun. This morning at 6am I came in from walking to discover him with his sink apart... It was running slow so he took it apart to get the gunk out!! I held the flashlight so he could get it together again. He's going to work on my sink tonight. He just cannot seem to help himself. If something is not working perfectly right, it has to be fixed.. He left at 6:30 and is on call again today. He doesn't know how to do nothing. As I said, he makes me tired.

Last question is about that emotional needs paper. I was trying to fill it out and was having trouble.. For instance for affection: he tells me he loves me every day( every time we talk on the phone or say goodbye), we have a brief kiss before he leaves and he has me pray for him. He always talks to me respectfully. I like all of that. I don't want him to stop that so the all the affection I need, but is NOT the way I like it doesn't work. But the component that is missing is physical touch.. backrubs, carressing my hair, cuddling on the couch, etc So do I just write that and ignore the a,b,c stuff.

Same thing with conversation. We talk a lot about TONS of stuff. I know EVERYTHING about his frustrations at work, how he feels, and he knows about the kids, church, our schedules, family, etc. We talk often: in the morning, during the day he will call me and at night. BUT we do not talk about US and I don't talk about what bothers me. When we were dating, he would often ask what is the matter? Nothing? No something is the matter and he would continually probe until he got to where I would sa somthing like " my parents fought.. so much how do I know that we won't do the same thing.. I don't want to end up like my parents.." and then he would talk me through it. But it took HIM really probing to figure that out. I know..I am an adult I should just say those kind of things, but it is REALLY hard for me. And I can't do it with kids coming in and out of the room or even doing that while we are working on a home improvement project. So for conversation I need him to help me really talk.

***edit***

Thanks for putting up with my questions..

Be as honest as possible and use the a,b,c system. None of this will have any worth if you continue to gloss things over, TW. Here is what Dr Harley says about what you are doing:

"Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance."

By not being up front, you harm the romance in your marriage.

And I would take a good look at the policy of undivided attention. All of the need meeting in the world will be for NAUGHT if you aren't meeting each others needs in a private environment for 15+ hours per week. This program doesn't work without that step!

The Policy of Undivided Attention

Regarding recreational companionship, the whole point is to find things you enjoy doing TOGETHER that complement the romance in your marriage. If it is not an intimate setting, it doesn't count. So his working around the house is not what is meant by recreational companionship. It is activities that you do together that you BOTH LOVE. Wiring his shop is not something you would have ever done on a DATE. Check it out here: Recreational Companionship

And lastly, TW, I applaud you for printing up the EN questionaires and I want to give you a word of caution. This program does not work piecemeal. It has to be done comprehensively and completely or you will see very little difference in your marriage. You might feel good for a week after you fill out the form, but will be right back where you started by the end of next of month. I promise you this.

It is because this program requires a complete change in habits that can only be effected by going through the ENTIRE program. It doesn't work without following the policy of undivided attention, the policy of radical honesty, the policy of joint agreement, eliminating lovebusters and meeting each others most important needs. Those all involve radical changes in your approach to marriage. THAT is the only way it works.

So if you want this to work, you are going to have to sell your husband on making comprehensive changes in your marriage with you. It works, but not if you fiddle around edges.

Ok, but I thought this was a good step. He is going to see 15 hours of nonproductive time as impossible. I don't want to start there. I was going to do the policy of joint agreement next, though that scares me.. He wouldn't want me to do anything but be home if he has to ENTHUSIASTICALLY agree.. I actually thought that I would shoot for 1 date for several hours each week of doing something fun. I guess I'm trying to figure out how you even get 15 hours.. If he gets home at 7 and needs to eat and visit with the kids and we go to bed around 9 or 10 and like last night he had to order stuff for his surgeries, the night before dictate.. Would we just go by oursleves all day on a Saturday for the 15 hours.. Our oldest is 17, so that wouldn't be a problem.. But I promise you to try and get a surgeon to have regular hours is impossible. We try to plan something and a surgery gets delayed. We plan a vacation and his grandmother falls and breaks her hip. We have reservations for a weekend away and one of our children gets a 102 fever.. It is almost comical....

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And that is the problem: he views spending time on his marriage as unimportant and nonproductive. And I suspect you do too. Your marriage should be the most important thing in your lives, but it is the LEAST IMPORTANT. When you neglect a marriage like this, you end up with an empty, unfulfilling shell of a relationship.

A career should serve to COMPLEMENT a marriage, not harm it. And from what you say here, his career harms your marriage.

It is that attitude that your marriage comes last that has to change in order to turn this around TW. In order to make changes, you have to...............change. You can't continue to do the same thing and expect different results. My point is that this will not work if you refuse to devote the necessary time.

Is your goal to prime the pump and then sell him on this program? Or is to fiddle around the edges so you can pretend like you are actually doing something?

Is the problem with his view, or how the time is spent? If the time is spent doing things he's not enthusiastic about, then it's not productive in any sense with respect to Marriage Building.

Part of the challenge is to demonstrate, to sell the program. So that means both taking that time and putting together a credible case for how valuable to him it has become.

The problem isn't always how he views the time. Sometimes, how we spend that time reinforces the view that it's not valuable.

Ok, I read that 3 times and I still don't understand it, so I can't answer your question.

Time spent doing things that don't fill the love bank will not be productive in any sense with respect to Marriage Building.

So my question is is the problem with his view on the importance of spending UA time on his marriage, or is the problem the things they are doing in the name of UA time in the marriage.

You can't always blame the spouse who doesn't see the value if what is being proposed doesn't register as highly as we want.

As Dr Harley often suggests, do we lower our standard or raise the level of our game? I believe in most cases he suggest we raise the level of our game.

Therefore, she shouldn't settle for less than the required UA, but neither should he settle for less when it comes to the types of activities in that UA time.

So is the problem with his view of the value of UA or is the problem that in his experience, the UA time has not been fufilling and his view is more hours of the same isn't something he is enthusiastic about?

I'm sorry, but that doesn't make a lick of sense. Her husband doesn't have the slightest idea what UA time means because he doesn't know about Marriage Builders. Please read the whole thread.

I have. It doesn't matter if he understands the definition of UA time. If he's not being presented with UA time that is appealing, it's not going to be valuable to him.

I'm pretty sure he knows what he likes and if he says he doesn't value something the question is why? One possible answer is that what is being proposed is simply not appealing.

Does that mean there is something wrong with him? Possibly. But it may also mean that what has been proposed is lacking.

Think of it this way. If your top emotional need is SF, but your spouse plans to spend 15 hours in conversation, are they meeting your top EN? Of course not.

Pretty soon, one may see UA time not as something they value because it builds their marriage, but as a waste of time because their needs are never met in UA time.

So I go back to the question, why doesn't he value this time? Is it because he doesn't know? Or is it because what he's been offered before was not fulfilling?

It has to be appealing to her has well. Otherwise, you have sacrifice and that's not POJA.

Therefore, work the questionnaires as she says she's trying to accomplish and use the information to plan for mutually satisfactory UA time.

It is possible that he doesn't value it because what has been presented before doesn't appeal to him. (What would be appealing about more of a bad marriage?) It's possible he's a jerk. It's possible she is no fun. But without the questionnaires and then a plan to have activities that appeal to each, it's all speculation.

Again, please read the thread before you comment. He hasn't been presented with activities for UA time because she has never brought the issue up. He obviously cant value something about which he has no knowlege. The questionnaires are irrelevant for obvious reasons.

Ok, to answer both of your questions neither one of us see much need of wasted time. So we don't have cable. If I watch the local news I am folding clothes. If I am at a sports practice I am grading papers or planning for children's choir or homeschooling. Same thing with my hubby. To just sit and talk and do nothing feels unproductive if that makes sense.. If I am walking, I am listening to a podcast. My sister said when we were dating that we were the most boring couple she ever knew. ( That said she has been divorced twice and is living with another man at the moment.. we've lasted 22 years ) We both enjoy camping and hiking. But we only go as a family. We play board games and go fishing. We do that for 2 weeks several times a year...or used to before the kids hit high school. ( Hubby takes off 2 weeks every quarter.)

Honestly, it is only lately that I have gotten tired of being so productive.. We don't really have close friends because we rarely have anyone over.

Ok, now a question about how to do 15 hours a week. I'm thinking not just about a doctor but a "regular" person. Even if you have someone who makes it home by 5:30 or 6. If you have 3 kids, what about their activities? For me, my older two boys have none except church on Wednesday night but many other people I know have a kid in sports or drama or whatever and you must take the kids back and forth. Help with homework, whatever. By that time it is 9 or 10 and bedtime. Soccer would be on Saturday, church on Sunday. You get the idea. As I said, my boys have no activities. My daughter has a ton, but they all take place during the school day.

But still, I am trying to imagine someone with 3 preschoolers or elementary age chidren managing 15 hours a week.. I just can't figure that out at all. I might be able to do that since mine are older but it would mean leaving them alone a lot.. I can't imagine going to do something 2 hours each day and leaving the kids to fend for themselves. ( Now they would be fine but when they were 2,9 and 11 not so much) How does this work practically.

Melody, could you give me a sample schedule of how this works. I'm honestly not seeing it, especially since my head nods off at 9pm..

I believe you introduced the UA policy quite comprehensively in that post, Mel. The linked article makes the policy crystal clear.

Also, what tiredwife is saying here

is that she does not want to present the idea of UA time first - she wants to work on POJA first. That must mean that she has not presented the UA concept yet. "I don't want to start there" means that no suggestion has been "started" - yet. I disagree with her that UA time should wait until after POJA has been introduced, but that is not my point here.

She also says that when she does present the idea of UA time, she would like to suggest 1 date for several hours doing something fun...not boring her H and missing his ENs. (I think they need more than one date per week, but again, that is not my point here.) "Doing something fun" is exactly what Dr H means by spending UA time meeting the four intimate ENs of conversation, RC, SF and affection, so it seems that she understands how UA time should be used. It is actually NOT meant to be used for meeting his non-intimate ENs, even if they are top of the his list.

Just FYI, it wouldn't be introducing it would be reminding. We did the Fall in Love Stay in Love at church a couple of years ago where all of this was presented. We did none of the homework, though. As I said, we haven't talked about US since we were engaged. We are both conflict avoiders. I have reread the book now and will give it to him as well, but he hardly ever reads anything except journals unless he is on vacation.

tiredwife, rather than talking hypothetically about someone who has a different set-up from yours, I think we should concentrate on working out a concrete plan for your situation.

If you start from the premise that building your marriage is the most important thing for your family, and must come before the kids' activities or anything else, that means starting each week by planning UA time on the calendar and making a commitment to meeting that time.

You said your H takes off two weeks every quarter. Is there any way for him to stop doing that, and instead spread some of that time out more evenly? If he only took one week per quarter to spend family time with the kids on vacation, could he use the other 7 days to take a half-day off each week to be with you?

You need to start saying "Friday evening we get a babysitter for four hours. Saturday afternoon we drop kids off with a grandparent. Oldest child babysits on Tuesdays" - or something similar - I can't remember the ages of your children without abandoning this post and looking back.

The way to put UA time first is to schedule it, and rearrange the kids' activities or drop some if necessary. When you start spending at least 12 hour a week outside the house without the kids (and not in front of a screen at the cinema), you will very quickly begin to enjoy being married to the man you married. I know because I do this now as part of the online course and the difference it makes to an unhappy marriage is incredible.

Ok.. so:

Monday- This is the day he does all day clinic around 40-50 patients. My daughter has youth orchestra from 6-9. I carpool with another mom, so 1/2 the time I would be available, but to be honest he is normally dead and has charts to dictate..

Tuesday- He has 4- 5 surgeries. I am available starting at 4, but they have their weekly office meeting at 6 every other week.

Wednesday- He has 4-5 surgeries. church activities for everyone except him. I get home at 9.

Thursday- He has morning clinic but is off in the afternoon. Ok, we could do that here. This could be a sizable chunk of time.

( Now realize that he is on call one of those days each week. It varies from week to week: this week it will be Monday, next week Thursday, etc.)

Now the weekend. He is on call once a month. Other than that we have church on Sunday morning. So we could do something sizable one day here. My daughter has something with her community chorus for 3 different Saturdays over the semester. If he is on call he does clinic on Friday. He takes one other Friday for surgery and takes the other one off.

Now this can all be shifted if we take a vacation, he might need to be on call to compensate. ( If we are gone for 2 weeks, then that means he has 4 weekday calls and 1 weekend call to fit in over the other 2 weeks.

Then of course there are the mission trips: We try to do one each semester for a week and a half, so once again that shifts his call that I said above.

See what I mean....

tiredwife, I am hit-and-run posting in between making dinner so I don't have a clear picture of what you describe in my head, but my immediate reaction is that you must use the half-day you said you had, and change some of the rest.

What are the mission trips for? Are they church activities? I would say that you should only be doing those if you have already made enough time for UA for the rest of the month in which they occur.

In the UK where I live, a hospital surgeon would have a greater ability than many other workers to arrange his work-life balance. Certainly junior doctors here work insane hours, but once they begin to progress up the career ladder they can be more flexible with the total hours worked per week - especially if they do some private practice. Some consultants work only part-time for the NHS and in private practice for the rest of the week. If you are in the USA, private practice is the norm, so what opportunities are there for reduced hours? Even another half-day would make a big difference.

I would say you need a change in mindset. Instead of saying "we work these hours, and then the kids needs these hours, so that leaves only these hours" you need to be saying "the marriage needs these hours, so H must try to cut down on work for a half-day".

BTW, what happens on a Friday?

Yes, I see what you mean. Everything ELSE takes priority over your marriage. BUT...all of these things are less important than your marriage. So you would need to FIRST schedule your undivided attention time and THEN fit the other things where you can. This is how it should be priortized:

1. your UA time
2. family time with the children
3. his job
4. church
5. all else

Start FIRST by reordering your priorities. Instead of the marriage coming DEAD LAST, it should come FIRST. And if your husbands job does not complement your marriage, it might be time to start looking for a new line of work.

But they are medical missions. He is in charge of one of them. We are counting down 8 years until our last kid is gone and we do that full time.... I guess I thought our life was supposed to serve others..

I'm trying to figure out how we get 15 hours to date as missionaries overseas.. So do you think no one should do that???

And you have church last. If I have no outlet for my music, I would curl up and die...

If you curl up and die, then you can't do anything on the list.

It's the aircraft air-mask speech. If the cabin suddenly loses pressure, you put your mask on first before you try to help others.

You (and your husband) need to put the mask on your marriage before you start helping others. Because if you two are not healthy, you can't help your kids, those you support with your mission work, etc.

It appears you are looking at everyone else who needs a mask and ignoring your marriage.