I've asked the mods to help edit my other posts and I am going to try and be very careful not to give personal id info.. My husband is just so private that he would be horrified to know I am here discussing our life. However, I have no one else to talk to or to give me advice....

As he was making out his lists for the weekend, I burst into tears. He wanted to know why and I asked where am I on the list. He was genuinely confused. I tried to explain but he still didn't get it. "I'll be with you when ____ comes over tomorrow.. I'm home. This is the whole reason I'm taking off Fridays and part of Thursdays so I can spend time with you and the kids... " But you are doing projects... how is that time with me? I can't share most of the rest of it, but we did talk for an hour or so with him completely befuddled.... You want me to just come home and do nothing??

I proposed that each week we did one of his projects TOGETHER like the electrical one. Regardless of what some of you said, it was rather fun to just talk to him while he was working on it and it was just us. Then we had another time for JUST fun, just us.. Sorry, but let him get used to the idea. If you tell this focused guy that he needs to just have fun for 15 - 20 hours a week, it won't work. I am standing firm for a fun date EVERY week, though. So that is a step in the right direction.

But it was so akward the rest of the weekend.. Sigh..this is why I didn't want to be honest... I HATED that look of disappointent and the lost, I've failed look on his face.. I'm just trusting that it will be better in the long run.

On Sunday I gave him the recreation inventory and emotional inventory worksheets and asked him to fill them out. He is almost done and we will discuss them tonight. ( I've blown off a meeting to do it.) He looked at me and said this emotional one is really hard... I agreed

I guess I still don't get how doing church stuff on ONLY Wednesday afternoon/evening and Sunday morning is too much... However, that said I will cut back if nothing else than to prove to him that I love him more than church. I am stepping off Praise Team and will do choir as it fits each week. I cannot give up chidren's choir. I am the director and haven't even been able to find any helpers. We have no music minister anymore. So it would be cancelled and I can't do that to my 20 kids. I'm not sure how my giving up Praise Team will be viewed either but I'll live with that I guess..

After we discuss the emotional worksheet, I thought I would do the Policy of jOint Agreement later this week. Then maybe this next weekend we could do the Love Buster/annoying habits one.

Does this sound like a good plan?

Tiredwife, I'd like to point out something- at least twice so far (as far as I can recall without searching), you've written asking for help and then either deleted it all and said "I shouldn't have said anything!!!!", then started a new thread. Please do not do this. It makes it impossible for people to see what your issues are, and it doesn't help you.

It also reflects your complaining - notice how you burst out crying when he made a list? You are an ineffective complainer. An avoider of conflict. You re-stated it when you said, "... this is why I didn't want to be honest".

Do you realize that a great deal of the issues in your marriage are actually caused by ineffective complaining, disrespectful judgments (he would be mortified, he would be horrified, etc... even though you have clearly not told him you are here or what he would think of that?).

So, before I address the nitty-gritty details of UA time, I'd like to point out that you need to address this inability to communicate properly and your assumptions of his beliefs (DJs).

Oh, I didn't realize you were not supposed to start a new thread. On the homeschooling boards, you are. The lock them after so many responses so they don't get too large. Since most of mine are 4- 6 pages long, I thought I was supposed to do that.

So.. trying to figure out what he thinks is a disrespectful judgement.. Wow.. I guess I thought disrespectful judements were when you said, "You are stupid for thinking this.." like my dad said all the time. I thought I was supposed to anticipate his needs..

Anyway, that is what I need help with. I just don't want anyone to know who I am or recognize me if that makes sense.. I just get so completely and untterly terrified at the idea of doing some of this. So I try to take a small step and come back and post.. Then I get absolutely terrified again.. the what iff..start. I don't sleep well at night with all of the thoughts that run through my head..

I'm sorry.. I'm trying. I'm honestly not trying to be irritating. I just can't figure out how to do this correctly.. Sorry. I'll try to do better.

TW, I know it is hard for you to be honest, but this is a big part of the problem. Without radical honesty, the problem can't possibly be solved because your husband has no idea what the issue IS. Unspoken issues lead to superficiality. I understand it is awkward for you to be honest with him, but that is only because you haven't been honest. Anything new is going to be awkward. But it is that lack of honesty that is causing the absence of intimacy and the inability to resolve your problems.

I see you taking baby steps without explaining the whys and hows of the program and that is going to quickly lead to frustration and an abandonment of your project when you don't see any results. Spending a couple of hours with him watching him do his projects is not going to help unless you are meeting the 4 intimate emotional needs of conversation, affection, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment. Otherwise it is for naught. This is not a check the box exercise. And your H won't do that unless he understands the HOW and the WHY.

You are going to be uncomfortable at first no matter what you do, so why not jump ALL in and get your money's worth? Why not just get it all out there and ask him to devote 20 hours per week TO HIS MARRIAGE?


How did you present this to him? What is his understanding of the program?


My suggestion would be to print up the article on Undivided Attention and hand it to him. To me, that is the biggest and most pressing issue in your marriage. If you can get him to commit to the time, you can then work on making that time as pleasant as possible.

But, nothing you do will have any effect unless you have that 20 hours per week.

Well, he's gotten accustomed to spending time without you. You've each gotten accustomed to spending time without one another. That's become a habit, and by definition, a habit is something you can change only over time.

But it's important for each to realize that something does need to change, and to communicate based on that realization. Shrinking from honesty is the worst thing you could do in that situation. Conflict-avoidance is not even a good close substitute for conflict-resolution. Without good communication, one can easily slip into assumptions, and without communication to fact-check those assumptions, they can turn out to be wrong.

Once upon a time, I formed the assumption that my wife didn't really need me all that much. She seemed so squared-away in her careeer, in her ministry work, in how expertly she parented our children. We weren't spending much time together. On the surface, everything was mostly working, kind of on "auto-pilot" ... but I started to feel almost like a 5th wheel in our marriage. Once I made that lousy assumption, I used it as an excuse to let my boundaries get shoddy. Maybe that's where some guys throw themselves into their jobs. Maybe that's where some guys blow a huge wad of cash on the red convertible sports-car or on season-tickets. But in my case, I simply "reasoned" that it was OK & harmless to condone a conversational friendship with another woman who was suddenly interested in talking with me. If you've read my August 24 post to you on your previous thread, then you know the rest of the story... how anodyne & harmless it seemed at first and how it almost trashed my marriage irreparably.

I love where we're at now in our marriage, but maybe the horrible, roundabout route via which we got here would've been avoided, if I'd been less lazy at communicating. Assumption is the very worst form of spousal communication.

Did you read what I had to say in my previous post to you about indispensibility? What did you think of that? My advice would be, just be sure to do a motivation self-check to make sure you're not deeming yourself indispensible. That can sometimes be a form of hubris/pridefulness. If you ever get to thinking that God's work can't be accomplished without you dialing back your hands-on involvement, it's time to step back & have a chuckle at yourself. Tiredwife, you know He's bigger than that, right?
If He is who we profess Him to be, He can do just fine with a little less elbow-grease from us for a spell here & there, if we're devoting the time saved to shoring up our marriages.

Take it slow but steady. Once upon a time, 4 short years ago, I would've regarded all this talk of emotional needs and "love-banks" as too touchy-feely, too hokey. I'd have "reasoned" that this stuff was for weaker people who needed crutches. Don't expect your husband to buy into it all at once, especially if either of you has been papering things over with one another by avoiding open discussion of dissatisfactions. It's great if he's even a little bit open to delving into this stuff. You can lead by simply clearing out time & making yourself available to him, habitually, even if he's temporarily befuddled about how to utilize that opportunity.

Glove Oil,

Oh yes, I did read what you wrote. Your comments are the reason I am willing to give up Praise Team and choir. ( Though I have always been in some kind of choir since 4th grade..it will be hard.) I will be willing to give up children's choir at Christmas break if need be. I just don't think it would be fair to the kids for it to get cancelled.

We are already having a good week and spending at hour each day just us, talking or having fun. He has been trying to meet the needs I have already expressed. I need to get him to express his needs. We didn't talk about the paper last night as he was exhausted from a REALLY long day, but we did spend an hour meeting another need. Smile.

Melody just seems to want me to jump in. It reminds me of a high school/college boyfriend I had that each semester would say he was going to make straight A's that semester ( After D's and F's the last one). His goals were unrealistic. His goal should have been: do not skip any class and do all of your assignments. That is it. He would have at least made C's doing that. Then the next semester you learn how to study. We will go through all of the worksheets. I will work on being more and more honest. Sorry, but this is hard for me. I've told him more in the last week than I have in the last 10 years. I'm trying. I will continue to be more honest each day. But you are talking about a person that has hid their true feelings from everyone in her life for 45 years.. ( I had to..dad would say I was stupid if I expressed my own opinion.)

It is already better and will continue to get better.. One step at a time.

Thanks for your cautionary tale. As I said, I am giving it up which is REALLY hard. But if that is what it takes, I will do it..

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Tired wife, but what you are doing is skipping class and ignoring assignments. This program works via a very specific formula and doesn't work the way you are doing it. Yours is the conflict avoiders approach. You are doing it YOUR way, and I would only
Point out that your way has led you to a very bad place I your marriage.

My husband and I, along with thousands of other couples, went through the program under Dr Harley's tutelage. We did not do a little here and a little there while we hung onto marriage wrecking habits.

The reason I want you to jump in is because that is how it works. If you are to change your habits, you have to change yOur habits or You wont see any results. And your husband will have no motivation unless he u dear stands the program. People who dont see any results quickly become discouraged and quit.

You are like the person who wants to lose weight but insists on eating your usual cake and baked potato. You just fiddle around the edges and waste your time.

I had posted I an attempt to help you because I thought you sincerely wanted the benefits of this program. Let me know when you are serious about doing it the right way and I will be glad to help. I will be moving on in the meantime. I have very limited time on the board and want to spend it with folks who want to use the program.


more from Effective Marriage Counseling:

From the book:
Dr Harley wrote:
"When I see a couple for the first time, I let them know that my program will require a minimum of fifteen hours a week of their time. If they can't dedicate that much time while I'm counseling them, I suggest they find another counselor because my plan won't work without it."


And if they don't do his assignments, he won't see them anymore. He gives them a "firm" talking to.

"It should be made clear to the couple that you expect compliance and that if they don't complete the assignment, they are wasting both time and money. The value of marriage counseling is in what is achieved between sessions, not necessarily what is achieved during the sessions."
pg 30

Let me put this another way, TW, and then I will leave, but in order to change your marriage, you have to change your habits. You change your habits by changing your BEHAVIOR until they become habits. Feelings follow ACTIONS. But your feelings will never change, nor will your husbands, if you are not using the policy of undivided attention. This program does not work without that step.

Jumping to the POJA will be a disaster this early because you have not fallen in love again. That is why that training typically comes later.

My suggestion would be to have Dr Harley or Steve speak to your husband t motivate him to get on board.

I wish you the best.

I agree with Mel .. feelings follow actions. My wife at first didnt want to do the actions required to get the feelings she wanted. It took me to do the leading to SHOW her i was serious ... i didnt want to do the actions either as I was very withdrawn but I couldnt just throw away my marriage so as I did the actions .. my feelings followed. As my wife seen my actions she eventually warmed up to the MB ideology and told me she would try it for a time .. and see how it went from there ... well .. it went great .. her feelings eventually followed and we are both now very in love thanks to MB. I am thanks often for not giving up ... for being the rock and leading us back to intimacy.

Feel free to read my story .. and find my wifes thread to see what she wrote (her thread is not very long just expl;ains how she thought it wouldnt work but eventually her feelings followed her actions). You will find my wife had a similar mind set as your hubby does in regards to UA.

MNG

btw .. a great ice breaker for the awkward moments during UA time was to read the books together. Made great conversation and we would cuddle and read in bed. This was difficult at first .. but eventually the awkward moments drifted into more and closer cuddling as we read the books out loud together. It slowly became less awkward as we created new habits of spending time together when previously we could have no problems ignoring each other all night after the kids went to bed. It takes time and commitment and it only gets better the sooner you get going on it.

Yes. That's what you need to do. You are hedging hugely now - ONE HOUR A DAY OF UA TIME?? REALLY?? Not nearly enough, TW. Not by half.

Do you have a better idea? Perhaps you want to eventually get around to rebuilding your marriage? I'm not sure what you're planning.

I too am all about the reading to each other activity for UA. NG and I started that a few weeks ago -- sitting under a tree at a park. I realized that by doing so it's not like we're both reading the same book, but actually hearing it and absorbing the information equally. Previously we would read the same book, but she'd be on page 100 and me on 50 and then we'd trade off and once in a while "what did you think about such and such?" Now, it's more like, "OMG, he's so right! One time I had a situation where..." And now you're UAing like champs.

It seems a silly and awkward notion for some reason. We started it because we just happened to have the book and I was tired. Then we discovered how valuable it really is as a UA activity. You could get into it by just offering to read a couple of sections you found interesting - then try to nurture it into a nightly thing just going through whatever book you're both enthusiastic about reading.

I hope you can get this going and get some solid UA time for a few weeks, and see where it takes you.

opt

Smile.. I'm trying..really. I came across a leader guide for promise you that had some great forms and such. It had all the forms in my Fall in Love Stay in Love book as well as scenarios for couples to discuss. Here is there undivided time scenario where a couple that had a 2year old sleeping with them did this:

They prepared a separate bed for Mary and gradually helped her adjust to a regular bedtime of 9:00.
This gave them 20 to 30 minutes together every night. (2.25 hours)
Since they were tired at night, they went to sleep 30 minutes earlier and woke up 45 minutes earlier
each weekday morning, using the morning time for undivided attention. (3.75 hours)
They talked to each other on the telephone for 5 minutes every morning, noon, and afternoon during
their weekdays (1.25 hours).
They sat on the sofa after dinner while Mary watched a 15-minute child video each weekday. (1.25
hours)
A babysitter came every Saturday morning from 9:00 to 11:00 and they went for coffee before
grocery shopping together. She also came Sunday afternoons from 2:00 to 4:00 when they did
a special recreational outing. (4 hours).
When Mary naps on Saturday, they dedicate 1 hour for undivided attention (1 hour).
They go out for dinner on Wednesday nights when Joe�s mom babysits Mary (1.5 hours).
If needed, they spent 20 minutes of their lunch times at work together on the phone. (1.75)

Ok.. some of this I am already doing: one hour each night we have been talking just the two of us. Last night the kids were watching a movie. Afterwards we sometimes .... which I gather counts as undivided attention as well. So Mon- Thurs let us say that is a total of 5 hours. I can't sleep and often get up and watch the news to help me fall back asleep and am generally up between 3:30 and 4. His alarm goes off around 4:45.. So I have been going in there at 4:45 and we cuddle until he gets up sometime between 5 and 5:15. We have generally been talking for 30 minutes or so as well. So I'm not sure how you want to count this time but let us say 30 minutes Mon- Friday. That is 2 1/2 hours. We are going to do a fun activity for at least 4 hours each week on the weekend or his Thursday afternoon off. He doesn't know this yet but my gift for him for his birthday tomorrow is that I am resigning from choir and praise team tonight. I am going to ask that he reserve Wednesday evening and try to avoid call on that day if possible. I will ask him what he wants to do. We both ranked Bible study high on our list so we could do one together, go play racquetball, out to dinner..whatever. It is his choice. This would be 3 hours or so. This will also allow us to actually sit together and worship together in church. He has often joked to people that one reason he got married was to have someone to sit with in church, and because of choir he has never gotten to. I guess this doesn't count as UA time, though. I will work on a project with him once a week on the weekend.. let us say for 3 hours. He REALLY REALLY likes for me to do this. He is getting ready to build a giant windmill, so we will do this together. So that is 17 1/2 hours. To me that sounds doable. AS I said, we have already been talking for at least an hour each night.. I have also made the effort for the morning thing. That is already being done... As part of his birthday present tomorrow I will give him the book and ask him to reread the undivided attention part.

Oh, I didn't even put in there that he has always called me 3 or 4 times a day and we chat. Also, he always has me hug him and pray for him before he leaves for work as well. We've been doing that for years.

I'm honestly trying.. I just don't get what you want me to do... I'm trying....

Melody, you said:

Spending a couple of hours with him watching him do his projects is not going to help unless you are meeting the 4 intimate emotional needs of conversation, affection, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment.


His top emotional needs are:
Honesty, family commitment, attractive spouse and domestic support. That isn't any of those listed above...

Those are non-intimate needs. They're valid needs, and that's why they are included, but they are not the reasons people feel romantic love.

Typically, when a person lists non-intimate needs at the top, it is because they are in withdrawal. I am speculating here, but other than honesty (which he might not be aware how dishonest you have been), he probably listed those as his top needs because those are the ones you meet. You said he was happy with your marriage the way it is, right?

Look at it this way: a nanny and a housekeeper could meet two of those needs. Do you think if you hired a housekeeper or a babysitter that your husband would fall in love with them?

Yep, that is what I told him last weekend. That I am tired of feeling like a glorified secretary. We WORK well together. We don't play well.. Which brings me to my next topic. We are going out to dinner tonight. I'm trying to figure out something to do afterwards or a quiet place to go. I'm afraid he will suggest going grocery shopping. ( He was looking at the ads this morning. He picks out the sales at each place and where to get the best stuff and then price matches the rest. He loves to go shopping.. The kids HATE going to Walmart with him as he can take 2 hours. With me, I have a list and am in and out as quickly as possible...) So I need a plan to suggest something else.. We are having a huge problem with West Nile right now, lots of hospitalizations and deaths. So, going to a park may not be the best idea. My top needs are:

1. Admiration 2. Affection 3. Sex 4. Conversation

How familiar is your husband with POJA?
This would be something to establish for events like the shopping - when you have POJA working, you only do it if you are BOTH enthusiastic about it.

If you don't have that yet... [and I am completely aware of the time it takes for these concepts to be established in a relationships or even individually] ...you can at least introduce the concept at dinner, or after. And see how amenable he would be to finding an activity that you BOTH are enthusiastic about.

He reminds me of me when I was in withdrawal from my now-ex. I only ever wanted to do practical things. I wasn't interested in an emotional connection with her; for various reasons the relationship had broken down.

Remember it is your responsbility to meet your H's En's and make him fall/be in love with you. You have total control of this.

When you shop, are you both looking at separate lists? or do you stick together and talk about stuff??
NG and I have shopped a lot (for necessity) and it isn't always entirely unpleasant or without intimacy and conversation, affection, etc.

In fact, there was this one time at the mall.....

hope this helps TW.
opt

Grin..figured it out.. I booked a hotel room with a jacuzzi... I've arranged it with my oldest. His first class at the cc isn't until 9, so we can sleep in a little bit. If need be I can pick up my 10yo at the college. I'm meeting my husband at the office so we'll have separate cars and he has tomorrow off. I'm sorry I'm giving you the idea that he is emotionally withdrawn. He isn't. He tells me all about work and feelings there. We talked this morning in our cuddle time as he realized how close he was to 50 about how life goes so fast and if we aren't really intentional what we SAY are our priorities get shoved aside by just daily living. That is when HE asked me what I was doing and said he wanted me to take him to dinner for his birthday and have my way with him. I think my plan will work.... I'm bringing our questionairres along as we haven't really TALKED about them yet. That is one thing I will talk about today is the fact that we never really talk about US or problems and think that somehow if we both avoid them they will just go away..