I apologize if this is long, it's kind of complicated

DH and I have been married 5.5 years, 2 kids with another on the way. We dated 1.5 years, then did long-distance dating for 1.5 years before getting married. The long-distance dating is honestly what started our problems but at the time DH assured me it would be fine and I really thought everything would be better once we were living in the same place again. I never agreed to the long-distance dating, but being in the 'giver' mode I didn't voice my objections strongly enough until he had already left. His leaving coincided with me and my sisters having to leave my parents house due to my mother's drinking problem. I was broke and attending school full time + working 3 jobs while he took time off to hike and then started seminary 1000 miles away to become a pastor, as was his life plan all along. I am Catholic so had no clue what being a pastors wife entailed until we were in the thick of the seminary process. Ever since he left for seminary, and for our 5.5 years of marriage, everything has been about his career. He always said he put family first but in practice it's always his church first and then the kids and I are second. As I said, I totally went along with little complaint for the time he was away and then we ended up in counseling 6 months into our marriage and again I was encouraged to compromise and make things work with his career and just communicate better. That was a big mistake and I regret not speaking up earlier. At this point though I'm basically done, I'm so over it and we fight all the time about the same things and there's never a change. I see his leaving as a huge betrayal in the first place, and then he's constantly traveling for work despite numerous promises that he would not do that and knowing how I feel about him leaving me alone in another new city with the little kids (we have moved 4 times so far, as is normal for new pastors unfortunately).

We took the MB emotional needs questionnaires recently and read a ton of the site materials at my request. The EN questionnaire revealed why my DH doesn't agree that we have a problem...almost all his highest emotional needs were moderately or very well met. Meanwhile my highest emotional needs have not been met even adequately. We did the questionnaire weeks ago and yet I've seen no change even after asking repeatedly if he was going to try. He also disagrees that we need 15 hours of UA and just doesn't want to bother. There's always an excuse, not enough time, not enough money, or why don't I come up with ideas, for why he doesn't plan any UA time. His dad travels all week and his parents have a great marriage so he thinks my objection to his time spent at work is unreasonable.

I just don't know what to do. I'm out of energy both physically (7 months pregnant) and emotionally for doing all the work, and I feel like I've been doing all the marriage work. What I need is for him to step up and do something, anything, but he doesn't. He promises he will but then doesn't follow through. So he's not unwilling in words but he is in actions, know what I mean? How do I even approach that when he claims he's doing tons of stuff for me and for our marriage? If he insists he's doing enough then I feel like I'm stuck either staying in what is for me a loveless marriage or leaving with 3 little kids to go ... nowhere because we have no money and him moving us around means my own career qualifications can't get me a job here (different state requirements).

Normally, we would tell someone in your position to make plans to separate, but since you are pregnant, you are in a tough situation. Dr Harley does not believe that spouses are obliged to stay in marriages where one spouse REFUSES to meet the others needs.

My suggestion would be to send your post to Dr Harley on the radio show and ask him for his advice. You can either talk to him on the radio show or he can read your email on the show and give you advice. If you send him your phone # he will call you. [this is all FREE] He may even want to speak to your husband.

Dr Harley can address your problem on the radio and then you can have your husband listen to it. Here is the radio link: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.html

And here is a an article that addresses your situation: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2264789#Post2264789

This might help also.
When to Call It Quits - Part 1
In addition to this excellent article here are some excellent radio clips on this.

Please listen to these radio clips on what are the reasons for divorce.

Radio clip at 5:45 When to call it quits
Segment #2

yiur story sounds just like mine. im miserable he is fine. im still in limbo what to do. i will watch your thread for any new advise cause I can totally relate.

Can you afford the MB coaching?

That article does sound a lot like my situation. My DH doesn't do anything mean, he's very nice, he just doesn't meet any emotional needs either. I don't know if he's ever said he believes in unconditional love but whenever I complain about him not meeting my needs his response is always to say "but I do love you". We've definitely gone through those stages of complaints turning into criticisms and now I'm basically at the point of not really wanting to meet his emotional needs, though I still do mostly. I'm definitely not sure how plan A and plan B would work in our situation. I did leave a year ago for 2 weeks but definitely didn't do it as well planned out as Dr. Harley recommends and went back when he promised to make several changes, only a few of which ever happened. I think my lack of planning is probably why that didn't work.

I'll consider e-mailing my post to Dr. Harley for him to address on the radio show, sounds kind of nerve-wracking to discuss out loud on the air but if it'd help then I'll try. I'd like to do the MB coaching but finances are really tight, which is part of our root issue since one of my emotional needs is financial support and DH's job doesn't pay very well and required extensive schooling for which he has student loan debt. Things have been slightly better financially recently though so depending on a few things we might possibly be able to afford it this fall.

Okay since it seems like it'll be awhile before we can do anything concrete like mb coaching i picked up the Love Busters book a few days ago after yet another day of no real time spent together. Dh asked about it and i asked him to read it. He insisted i tell him which chapters to start with so i picked the first 2 and 2 others that seem to apply to our situation. He read them and then confronted me about the chapter on career decisions and how it wasn't that easy. Then he wanted me to come up with career ideas for him. Ugh, i don't know what he should do for a job, everything i've suggested before he's suddenly rejecting even though he'd said before that he was definitely going to work on switching to counseling (it matches his undergrad and some of his pastoral experience) so now our previous agreement about his job is not happening and he wants me to come up with more ideas. I don't see the point if since it should be something he's enthusiastic about but he says he has no ideas and is only enthusiastic about ordained ministry.

So what now? I'm so confused and have no idea how to respond to his lack of response. I feel like i'm going insane in my own house with my dh refusing to have real conversations and lying saying he'll do something then not doing it. I talked to him about the radical honesty policy but he doesn't think he's ever been dishonest. Basically i've kicked him out of our room for the time being because if i let him be around he thinks i must be happy with him in spite of what i say and he stops even the tiniest effort. And yet even that barely results in any effort. He just leaves for work as usual with no goodbye, no note, and no indication of when he'll be home with our one car.

Did you write Dr. Harley on the show? It's free and include your address you'll get a free book. Let them know you have love busters so they send you a different book.

He should be in your marital bed.

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

Sorry it took a bit to check back in here, hard to find a time when my son isn't awake (he can read so could read over my shoulder) and DH isn't home.

Anyway, I did send an e-mail to Dr. Harley, no response yet but it's been less than a week so maybe soon.

No changes in the last few days, he just makes small talk and if I ask him to make an effort for our marriage he says nothing.

me, have you followed Dr. H's advice to separate from your husband? That will help eliminate that limbo you're experiencing. If Dr. Harley feels you should separate, you need to separate. Have you done so? Please update us on your own thread.

You do this together. It's called the Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA). He is bullying you by throwing this at you.

Maritalbliss, I tried to tell him that but he says he has no ideas. He thinks he was POJA-ing it by asking me for input, but then didn't give any input himself. He says we are brainstorming together and he can't help if he doesn't have any ideas. (I need an eye roll smiley here, lol)

But that's basically indicative of how he approaches all of this. He says he is willing to do UA time, but then asks me for ideas, says he has none, and never gets around to planning anything. So in his mind he's not in the wrong because his 'intent' is right or because he said 'sorry'. It's really frustrating.

Have you heard back from the Harleys?

Dr. Harley says to carry a pad and paper and write down ideas as they come to you. He should give this a shot. He will probably come up with some ideas.

I was like your hubby in that regard .. its called passive aggressive. I would do that same thing. I figured I was doing the POJA if i brought it up to my wife whatever it was .. and then I would not have much input as I would not want to have a opinion that differs from my wife. This stems from being afraid of my wifes reactions from things due to past issues. What I realized (and this took quite a while to overcome) was that if my wife made me feel safe (talking calmly and keeping her cool in a discussion that progressed to hostility if correct tones and words were not used) when we brought up issues where POJA was required I would be more inclined to have an opinion ... where as previously i was programmed to not have one because past issues would become heated if i didnt have a similar opinion as my wife ... so i would avoid the conflict by just agreeing with what my wife wanted. This of course created hidden resentment in me and eventually I would become short and grouchy towards my wife which then triggered me to shut down more... and avoid the conflict even more ... end result was that my NOT having an opinion when asked for one was a love buster to my wife, but I had to tell her that she needed to make me feel safe before I gave my opinion.

Do you possibly think your hubby is afraid of your emotional reactions to things from previous issues before MB was in the picture? Could he be programmed like I was to avoid the conflict but just going along with whatever you wanted before?

MNG

Sorry, MNG, but that sounds like a cop-out. Passive aggression and conflict avoidance have very little to do with the other person, and have much to do with the PA and CA person and their desire to just not deal with stuff. It's manipulative.

I'm with Mel MaritalBliss, this is a bullying tactic, it's "Fine! You want something different? You do the work. I'm not doing anything, because I just don't care enough about you to do any!"

Also ETA: ime, and I've seen this on the boards: the people who refuse to participate in negotiations are people who already have their mind set and don't want to hear opposing opinions, NOT that they are afraid of expressing their own. He's expressed his opinion; he wants to do ordained ministry and nothing else. It's much easier in the minds of people who are 'set' like this to throw everything on the other person and pretend to go along than to admit that they have no intention of taking their spouse's feelings into consideration, and never did. If the other person can't come up with any viable options ON THEIR OWN, well, then, everything is THEIR fault! See how perfect that is?

I see that too CWMI .. you make some good points. The way the OP described it made it feel to me that it was an avoidance issue.

*shrugs*

It IS an avoidance issue. It is avoiding having to admit that a person has only one option that they will be enthusiastic about, and knowing that their one option upsets their spouse, but they're still going to stick with it. He can't come up with anything else because his mind is set on ONE THING. They are not opening up negotiation because they know it is a lost cause: they win, or they lose. Game over. It is closed-mindedness.

My H and I went through this last night, about all things! Walking the dog! He likes to walk the dog right after dinner. I feel really full after dinner and find taking a brisk 2-3 mile walk immediately after uncomfortable. I get cramps. I would prefer to walk either before dinner, or wait 30 minutes to an hour, depending on the meal. I have been turning down his invitations to walk lately, because he always wants to go within five minutes after finishing dinner. I have told him before how much I don't enjoy it then. He kept asking, I kept turning him down. However, I enjoy walks with him. So last night when he asked again, I said, "How about if we go at 7:30?" He was fine with that, but at 7:05, he took out the leash, put on his sneakers...dinner still hadn't been cleaned up, I was still in day shoes (not made for long walks)...I ended up suggesting that he could clean up from dinner while I changed. On our walk, he said that it 'only made logical sense' to walk right after dinner. There is much more to the convo, but the basic take-away is that is DOES NOT make logical sense to cut your spouse out of an activity that you both enjoy because you have a strict mind-set on where or when or how it should happen. What is logical is to accommodate what you both need so you both are happy.

Just an example of how a mind-set person can be destructive.

Hi CWMI, sorry to T/J, but this is an interesting scenario involving POJA, which I'm still trying to understand. I'm like you in that I don't like to walk (or any kind of exercise) soon after eating, for the same reason - it's uncomfortable. My recent girlfriend, on the other hand, liked to walk soon after eating because it helped her digestion. If we don't agree on when to walk the dogs, does POJA say that until we resolve the conflict, neither of us can go for a walk? If so, then what about the dogs?

Considering this statement,

if I had expressed this opinion to my exGF, I could see her turning it around and saying that it is *I* who has the strict mind-set because I'm insisting on waiting after eating before walking.

If her digestion is enabled by walking immediately after eating, but mine is hindered, why should either of us expect the other to accommodate our differences in digestion?

Was your resolution to the dog-walking issue enthusiastic for both of you? I'm curious because so far I only have book-knowledge of POJA and no real practical experience.

Yes, nobody goes for a walk unless it is agreed to. With us, I suggested that if he insisted on walking right after dinner, we have a treadmill in the basement that he can walk on. Then he said, what about the dog? I said the dog wasn't insisting on a particular time, and would likely be happy going in the morning or later in the evening. She has open access to a large yard at all times, it's not a potty or exercise thing for her...she goes out there to do her business, run laps, chase squirrels, etc all day long.

See, I didn't have a strict mindset about 'when'. I was open to many other times throughout the day when he was also available. He was having a strict mindset about 'when'--which happened to coincide with my only 'no'. The one who will not budge or look for other option is the one who is 'set'. Being enthusiastic about only one thing, the one thing that you know causes discomfort in your spouse, is 'set' and 'selfish'. If his goal was to get exercise immediately after dinner, we have essentially an entire gym in the basement on which he can do that without leaving the house.

Walks in our 'hood are very often a quite social activity. It was this I was uncomfortable with about his solo walks. I want him to socialize with me. I want to be a couple in the world. Plenty of ways to exercise that don't fracture that. See?