Thanks for the input. Like you, it is very much a challenge to not have business meetings in our professions with those of the opposite sex.

We continue to learn the nuances of making our marriage affair-proof. It is an on-going process. We are good dealing with the bigger issues but as time goes on we are realizing there are many other things that continue to come up which we need to address.

The POJA is an amazing tool that applies to most every situation. Good stuff. What a difference this has made for us!

It is amazing�I look back now and realize how much I didn�t know about how to create a happy marriage.

I was counting in my head last night how many friends I have since high school and college who�s marriages have had adultery enter into them�I was up to 5 including my own.

Truly stunning�and sad.

20yearhistory, glad you are back posting, friend!

For those interested, Dr. Harley addressed the topic of one-on-one business meetings with people of the opposite sex on the Friday May 3rd radio program.

In summary, he has no problem at all with it. His emphasis was keeping the discussions purely business and not let it cross personal boundaries.

He said that anyone who feels vulnerable with putting themselves in this situation they need to be honest with themselves and find different ways to accomplish your goals.

If the spouse is uncomfortable with the person you are meeting with then this should be POJA�d.

Here's your and clearmind's question.

Radio Clip About one on one Business meetings with OS

Thank you, BH. I was wanting to listen to the segment again.

Overall, things are going very well the last few months. We continue to work the program and it is working. Slow, but the positive aspect is that we are making progress. UA time has been the hardest aspect to accomplish.

Couple big bumps with MIL. I never thought she supported our M. After D-day, I had asked several times for their help with FWW and always felt they turned their back on me. Never thought MIL and FIL took a stand against the A. You know, their daughters happiness at any cost. Several things about the MB program she really disagrees with. Not asking for her approval but more her support. After 2 years of resentment building up I made a call to MIL very angry about a lot of things. I didn't handle myself well at all. My AO hurt her feelings. I have apologized but it has hurt our relationship. Guess the buildup of the last couple of years finally bubbled over. Hurt on both sides.The experience is bringing clearmind and I closer together.

20years, are you familiar with Dr Harley's position on family members who are toxic to your marriage? I know Markos and Prisca have dealt with this. The general principle is that all family members are subject to the POJA. And if one of you can't enthusiastically agree to associate with a certain member, then that member is avoided.

Period.

Best decision I ever made. And after about two years, they finally decided it was worth it to apologize, and our relationship was restored, and is progressing on a much more adult level.

Dr. Harley has some great things to say about this in his HNHN For Parents book.

I guess the question is, what is toxic?

My SIL fell into this category and we do not spend time with her or BIL. We have a long history of being close to MIL, FIL. They are very close to our children. The last thing clearmind and I want is to not have a relationship with them.

See, the A took place in clearmind's hometown, where MIL, FIL live. This is a massive trigger for me to go to their home. We POJA to not go there to their home for now as it is an extremely unpleasant time for me when we do go. I have been sacrificing since we started R going there. MIL and FIL think this is a ridiculous decision. They don't understand. Also, they think that having complete transparency such as our phones and emails is an invasion of privacy.

Now, this doesn't really bother me too much because I don't need their approval for anything. I do want their support which they say they are giving us. What really made my blood boil, resulting in a heated discussion a week ago was that they said they didn't believe we mutually agreed to not go to their home right now....it was all on me. This is complicated because as we have started R, I have felt (maybe incorrectly) that they think the A was my fault. I was made out to be a very bad person and I don't think they trust me. At one point in the conversation, I said "don't you know that she F'ed him there???...You are not welcome in our home (our home that is)". edit: so with that, they thought we wouldn't be seeing them at all and I would be withholding the grandchildren from them.

I did cross the line and have apologized several times for my AO. The way I handled the conversation was uncalled for. I do have resentment built up though. Part of me believes they are in somewhat of denial of what their little girl did.

After D-day, when I kicked her out, they gave her $$$, helped her but never one time denounced the A and took a stand. They never one time asked how I was doing when their daughter betrayed their SIL and grandchildren. When I asked for their help to get her to stop the A and be honest..didn't do a thing. Seemed like they just swept it under the rug..while I was on the floor bleeding..turned their back on me.

I can't imagine if either of my children had or were having an A...not sitting them down and setting them straight. Yeah, still upset about that.

My AO didn't help things but now they are scared that I am going to keep their grandchildren from them...which I never said one time. They are good people. I do love them very much. We have a long history and want to work things out with them so we can have a mutual understanding.

Could you explain more? What was the situation? How was it resolved? What made you get to your breaking point?

That is for YOU to decide. If your relationship with them causes lovebank withdrawals, it would be toxic to your marriage.


Your wife should be the one to resolve this issue. She needs to protect you from things like this since they are her parents. My suggestion would be that she write them a letter explaining the harm she did to her marriage and that they do further harm with their unsupportive position.

They are very disrespectful to beat you up for taking affair proofing measures in your marriage. That needs to be addressed and resolved, IMO. If they don't agree to stop it, I would consider cutting them out until they do agree to stop it. You can't have people in your lives that cause this kind of conflict in your marriage.

She has had several conversations with MIL but really to no avail. She keeps saying how hurt she is from our conversation.

I do see your point. Right now it seems like everything we do to resolve these issues is blowing up in our face. Kind of a no-win situation at this time. Maybe things need to cool off a bit.

I am tired of apologizing to them. This is very difficult for everyone. Clearmind does not want to lose her parents. I don't either. Especially for her and my children.

Your suggestion about writing a letter is a good one. Thank you. I will bring that up tonight.

..uggghhh...Affairs are such a bad idea...unbelievable the fallout. It's like a nuclear explosion. People are affected for miles away and for years to come.

Things finally got better for us when I quit trying to prove, quit trying to apologize, quit trying to convince. I just laid it out: you've been disrespectful to my wife, and we won't be seeing you any more until you apologize and it never happens again. They tried to have a few conversations where they tried to prove they didn't need to apologize; I cut those off quickly. You can't win any such debates. The only way we could get the message across was when they were sitting there alone without us (and their grandchildren) with no way forward other than to apologize.

I realize I've wasted an enormous amount of my life trying to debate my boundaries with violators instead of simply quietly enforcing them.

The situation was my parents wanted to interfere and "advise" in most of our life decisions. They expressed dismay at just about everything we decided to do. They used disrespectful comments to try to pressure us into doing what they felt we should do in life.

They were extraordinarily disrespectful to Prisca.

There was no "breaking point"; just a gradual realization that I needed to do just what Dr. Harley advised: tell them they weren't going to see us or our children any more until they apologized, and tell them that it could never happen again. Then we had two years of mostly peace before they finally decided to apologize.

Today we don't have conversations about what they think we should do in life.

Bravo good post!

Dr. Harley makes a very good point that if you have children, your parents/parents-in-law are typically very motivated to maintain the relationship. Usually, they want to see their grandchildren. It may take them awhile to come around, but if seeing their grandchildren means having to eliminate certain behaviors, there is a very good chance they will do it.

There is a case near the end of Love Busters about trouble with parents-in-law. In that case, they were pressuring the couple to attend church with them. They completely cut the couple off when the couple started attending other churches. After two years, they finally came around and decided it was important to have a relationship with their daughter and son-in-law after all. It's interesting to me that it took about two years for my parents to come around, too. I'm not sure if two years is a magic number, or if it's just coincidence. I was convinced at one point that I wasn't going to see my parents again until their funerals.

I strongly encourage you to QUIT apologizing to them. You've already apologized. It's on them to accept it.

I had several angry outbursts at my dad. Nasty and disgusting. By all rights, I owe him an apology, although I've never extended one; we've just moved on and don't open that piece of the past any more.

Quit apologizing. If they are engaging in behavior that causes you misery in the present, stop tolerating it. Let your wife know you won't see them until they stop it.

Leave the past aside and explain to us what they are doing TODAY that is causing a problem. Are they still getting onto you about what you did to fight for your marriage? Then I would say you're not going to put up with it.

You may not be able to persuade them of anything, but you are able to mark and enforce your boundary. You don't deserve to be abused by in-laws or anybody for saving your marriage.

In addition to "advising," I should mention that they were constantly trying to "advise" me about what a problem Prisca was. They claimed she was driving a wedge between me and them (hello, Pot ... meet Kettle!), they were constantly trying to get me apart to have a private conversation with me about her, they were writing letters telling me I needed to do something.

At one point I wanted to ask if they thought I should take Prisca over my knee and give her a good whooping! I don't know what they wanted me to do, and it wasn't any of their business, and the problem was not Prisca - the problem was my extraordinarily disrespectful parents, who made such asses of themselves for awhile that first Prisca and then I didn't want to be around them!

All of that crap has vanished, and they can see clearly that they are not going to have private conversations with me that don't include my wife.

It doesn't sound like you are going to get that kind of support. I would not discuss Marriage Builders with them any more at all. You've decided how to live your life, and they shouldn't be a part of the decision.