My story begins 20 years ago when I met my wife to be in college. Six years later we married. 14 years of marriage have been a mixture of good and bad times. We have 2 beautiful children, 7 and 5.
January of 2011, my wife approached me and said she was not in love with me anymore with no real justifications. She said that she deserved to be loved and that I also deserved to be loved. She shared with me some of the things that had bothered her through the years and I truly heard what she said.
Although I realized we had been through some tough times, this hit me like a ton of bricks. From that moment forward, I began the single biggest transformation of my life. I loved her very much realized that the only way I could save my marriage was to transform myself into the person I always wanted to be.
In March of 2011 my worst nightmares were realized. For months I had felt like there was something pulling her away from our marriage. And indeed I was correct. Upon getting her Facebook login, I discovered that indeed she was involved in an affair. At that time, I was unaware of Marriage Builders which looking back would have been a tremendous asset. Of course she lied and denied everything until she realized I knew for sure what was happening. My first reaction was divorce. I immediately kicked her out of the house and told her it was over. She got an apartment and was living on her own. After a few days, I realized that I needed to take my time to gather my thoughts before moving forward.
One week later, she called me crying and begging for another chance. I told her the only way that would be remotely possible was to end the affair, never speak to him again for life and promise to never lie to me ever again. Of course she agreed and we started talking. Then the facts started coming out. She had been in an EA for 7 months and it turned into a PA only recently. I exposed it to everyone; our families, friends and relatives. I even went as far as sending messages to his FB friends and family.
We found Dr. Harley and started reading his books. As the months proceeded, she swore to me that all contact had ended and she was being totally honest with me. At this time, I was heavily investing in our recovery but something just didn�t seem right. She had cancelled her FB account. Overall things seemed to be doing pretty good with us. We were communicating better than ever before but my �radar� still was spinning and I started to really snoop again.
She gave me her password to her work email account (which is where all the correspondence took place). I found some emails and realized that indeed they never truly stopped talking. I exposed this again the last week of December and told her that it was over. They had seen each other 2 more times in July at a public restaurant and had been emailing.
Since this time, she has done a complete 180. She is now totally committed to rebuilding our relationship and is with an excellent councilor. I see in her that there is a possibility that the �fog� has finally been lifted. She sees things in her character that do not reflect how she was raised, her morals, character and so forth.
Here is where I need help. I am really struggling what to do at this time. I am so confused. Do I give her another chance? Do I end it now?

Please help me!

I think you need to ask yourself what you want to do. You have a long history, I imagine overall you have had a good marriage, and have young children, I would say that is worth saving.

There isn't a betrayed spouce here that hasn't had some hesitation moving on with their marriage. If you choose to continue and devote yourself to saving your marriage, then you will have to get by the nagging feelings of doubt. If you do save your marriage, many will tell you, you can have great marriage that far surpasses the marriage you had pre-affair.

20year, who is this OM? Is he married? Has the affair been exposed to his side? To whom have you exposed the affair?

The way to recover is to completely eliminate the OM from your lives. Has that been done? Does he live close by? Can she run into him?

No he is not married. He is single and lives in anther city 70 miles away. I exposed him through his FB account to numerous people. I exposed it to all of our friends and family.

Two weeks ago she mailed him a strongly worded no contact letter. Although I don't believe anything she says 100%, her actions indicate it is indeed over. She said he is out of her heart and wants nothing to do with him ever again. She realizes how wrong it was and is deeply remorseful.

My main issue at this time isn't the 7 months prior to d-day. It is the last 10 months in which she continued to lie and decieve me swearing that she was being open and honest when indeed they were still communicating via email.

Just don't know if I can ever trust her again. I do have love in my heart for her but question if too much damage has been done.

20year, false recoveries are harder to recover from, but you can do it if you will throw all of your energy into a) affair proofing your marriage and restoring the romantic love in your marriage. You CAN probably recover from this if you do it right. If you DON'T replace this current marriage with a GREAT marriage, then you will have resentment for a very long time.

Instead of trusting her, I would focus on creating an affair proof marriage so you don't have to rely on trust. If she makes her life so transparent that she can't cheat, then you won't worry about this. I would also secretly put a GPS on her car and any other spy devices that will help you see what she is doing. THAT WILL DO MORE FOR RESTORING TRUST THAN ANYTHING.

CHECK THIS OUT:

here

Melody, thank you. I do have access to her email account and cell phone which I monitor. I will look into a GPS as well.

I would also appreciate some advice as to living arrangements. We have been living separetly and she has been out of the house and in an apartment for 11 months now. I know what Dr Harley says about this issue but for me, I am struggling if and when we should consider her moving back in.

As long as she is willing to meet the requirements for recovery (transparency, implementing extraordinary precautions, working the MB program, etc) I would move her back in immediately. It is extremely risky to live apart.

My biggest concern is not knowing where my heart really is with this whole mess. I agree that there are advantages to moving back in but at the same time I guess I am just scared.

20,,

Been in your exact shoes. I did take mine back and went through a couple of false recoveries-they suck!! I found out that she would look at his facebook page--that even triggers them. The strongest consequence I put on her was that if she ever contacted him we were done!!

Guess what happened! So whatever your decision is make sure you stick to your guns and that she KNOWS that there will be consequences set by you for her actions....

My biggest piece of advice is to Listen to these people--NOW---not in two weeks! They know there stuff!!!

God bless and I will continue to follow along

Thanks, P. Great advice.

I am stronger than I have ever been and without question she fully knows the consequence of any lies, deceit or contact in any form. It is over and I will not look back.

I do think it is really over with them. Seen a lot to confirm that. I watch her like a hawk. Heck, I am monitoring her email as we speak.

Not only is processing the past, but the lingering doubt of projecting into the future is difficult.

20year - I'm a vet of a Facebook fueled EA so I feel your pain. We had false recoveries also. We didn't make it because WW didn't want to put forth the effort. It sounds like yours does. You have 2 young children; fight for them.
Get your wife back in the house asap. You need UA time together for this to work.
Follow the MB principles and listen to the folks here - you can make it

20yrs, it was living apart that prevented your recovery in the past. If you are serious about recovery, you need to be together NOW, not later.

Yes your WW must move back home. Can't recover living apart and living apart makes back sliding to easy.

AP's breaking NC is painful but many recovery's have had a broken NC and still recover fully.

Very Important Question:

Being the affair used your WW work email does that mean OM works for same business as WW?
If not co workers how did they meet?

20years. That is the thing that I too struggled with the most. My own FWH seemed so sincere and remorseful. He would look me straight in the eye and say "may god strike me dead if I am lying." blah blah blah

Turned out he was lying. He was continuing to manipulate and deceive me into believing that he was committed to the M while he was still meeting OW. I was completely devastated. I think a very important part of me died when I found out the truth.


That was 3 years ago. We are still married and are now quite happy. How did I move on after that?



1. I decided that I owed it to my kids to try everything I could to keep their family together.

2. I decided that I would not make any decisions for one year. I gave the M my all for one year. No expectations.

3. I finally found MB which taught me how to affair proof the M and make me feel safe again.

4. MB also taught me how to rebuild the romantic love.

5. I still struggle from time to time with the lying part. When that happens, I look at what FWH is doing NOW. That person who could so easily look me in the eye and lie is my OLD husband. My NEW husband is a treasure.


You can move on 20years. It is not an easy road but it is well worth it. Get your WW back home. Affairs are an addiction and your WW cannot break it on her own. Rebuilding the love and feeling safe will never happen from a distance.

Expect your willingness to reconcile with WW to change on an hourly basis. It is a rollercoaster.

No, they do not work together. They knew each other in highschool 23 years ago and reconnected via facebook.
If they worked together there is no way I could do this unless she quit her job.

I guess I am just not 100% sure what I want at this time. Having her move back in, in my mind, would point to committment on my part to really want to make this work.

More than anything I want my family to be together. All these new emotions I have never dealt with before are difficult. Until this happened she seemed to be one of the most trustworthy people I have ever met. She was always so sweet and kind. That is why this is so hard for me trying figure out who she really is.

If you invite her to move back in with you and live together an integrated life, look at it as a test for a year, rather than a commitment.

My FWH knows that the first year test post-A is over and past us, but he completely understands that the test continues. I am looking for him to be consistently radically honest and transparent, to exercise Extraordinary Precautions, and to meet my ENs and avoid love busters. Of course, I am doing the same thing.

I thought very seriously about separation and letting him prove himself from a distance, but H was right. It's much easier to see how he conducts himself when we live together, even though it's an emotional risk.

Sure, that's hard, but if you have the strong desire to keep your family together, living together is the best way to go about it.

20years. Have you thought about how your life will be if you choose not to reconcile?

Are you ready to share your kids with an OM and have them call OM "my step DAD"?

Where are the kids now?

20year, you are completely within your rights to move on. No one will fault you for that. But here is the thing. You aren't going to recover your marriage living apart. You have already seen that doesn't work.


We know who she is. She is in there. She got highjacked by an addictive affair. What you describe is classic wayward alien behavior, but once they are removed from the source of their addiction, the old person returns.

She can return to a better person who really *IS* trustworthy by affair proofing your marriage. That old "trustworthy" person was an illusion. She obviously had poor boundaries that allowed her to have an affair. We would address that in your recovery. One of the first things she would have to do is make her life so transparent that she can't have an affair.

We all understand the feeling to turn your back and not look back. Pride runs deep.

Just make sure that you have thought it through before you throw in the towel. Your decision will affect your entire family. You will have to look your kids in the eye and explain your decision... probably many times as they get older and need more answers.




There are several BH on this board right now who would give their right arm for a WW who was willing to commit to NC and return home to their families.

Think about letting WW return home under YOUR conditions:

1. Complete transparency - cell phones, computer, passwords, etc
2. No more FB
3. No more opposite sex friendships
4. No overnights apart
5. NC with OM for life
6. NC letter to OM in which she addresses her selfish and disrespectful actions and the hurt she has caused to her family.
7. commitment to MB program to learn how to affair proof your M and rebuild the romantic love.

This would give you the opportunity to turn this around and keep your family together while leaving the door open to D if she cannot meet your requirements and become a trustworthy W.

This would give her the chance to EARN back your love and trust.

Yes, I have thought long and hard about this. We have always been an extemely close knit family. The thought of the OM being stepdad makes me sick to my stomach. The children rotate one day with me, one day with her. Visualizing my life without my family is the scariest thing I have ever faced.


I plan to discuss her moving back in this weekend with her. I brought up the subject last night and she is eager to talk about it more.

I don't want my own pride to stand in the way of "what could be". I just don't want my heart stepped on again!!!!

I think this is my own self preservation insticts.

I am going to follow your advice. This is a reasonable and wise approach.


I want to thank everyone of you. I have been lurking here for some ime and am just so glad I reached out to this community.

I understand completely! I think we can be a great help in this regard. If you and your wife implement EP's *AND* start taking steps NOW to restore romantic love to your marriage, you can transform this. It would help if you had her come and post to us. If she is sincere we will know it. If there is any bullcrap going on, we will weed it out.

What is so interesting about your thoughts is that last summer, after reading Fall in Love, Stay in Love, and taking the survey, we realized that 8 out of 10 of the EN�s couldn�t be better. We have worked though the challenges in our marriage and have a good understanding of what the other needs. Parts of our marriage now have never been better. Our communication has reached a level I never thought we could get to. But, what I didn�t know while we were working on these things is that she couldn�t let him go. She was addicted to the contact. She was even talking with him about continued reconciliation with me. Of course he told her she would be in a �prison� if she came back. Clearly he had his own self interest in mind.

Currently, in some ways, our romantic love is at an all time high. She is committed to meeting my emotional needs. I she says the voids that were in her life are now gone.
I wish I had a crystal ball to know if what she is saying and doing is FOR REAL.

And the reason that it was so hard for her to break that addiction is that she didn't live with you. She was free to pursue her addiction! She wasn't sleeping with you at night and was living apart so it was too easy to pursue that addiction. If she had been with you, it would have been much easier to WITHDRAW because it would have been much harder to carry on her affair.

It is sort of like the alcoholic. Is it easier to stop drinking when you are in the bar or when you are far away from it?

A separation like this is almost a guarantee of a resumed affair so it doesn't surprise me at all that the affair continued. The continued contact would have been much less likely to take place if she had stayed home.

When was she last in contact with the OM? I am doubtful that she is in love with you.

Great plan to follow.

To recap, March 2011, exposure. She said told him it was over the following week. (I can confirm this). After that time, he continued to reach out to her via email. She said she would go for weeks at a time with no contact, but then would have a moment of weakness and they would talk for a few days. He talked her into meeting her for lunch 2x�s. Once the last of June, another, the middle of July at a restaurant. She has not seen him since July, 2011.

After the last meeting in July, she said again she would go for weeks with NC and then they would email. During this time, we were spending nearly every day together after work and the weekends, as a family. We were working on our relationship. Reading, counseling, working hard. Our time together was very special. A new bond was being built between us.

She says that last August her feeling starting to diminish for him. But, they continued to have spotty contact once a month or so (email only) until December 2011. She said starting in October, she felt her feelings start to return for me, which she thought would never happen. To her surprise, because we were both trying our best to meet each other�s EN�s, love was returning at a rapid pace.

She says that now she has fallen back in love with me. Her actions show this to be true. But, I understand your doubt. I am just sitting back watching, waiting and letting it play out

Oh, the last contact was she mailed him a strongly worded NC letter 3 weeks ago acutally going as far as saying she would issue a restraining order if he contacted her again.

Prior to that, he emailed her in December.

20years. That is the thing that I too struggled with the most. My own FWH seemed so sincere and remorseful. He would look me straight in the eye and say "may god strike me dead if I am lying." blah blah blah

Turned out he was lying. He was continuing to manipulate and deceive me into believing that he was committed to the M while he was still meeting OW. I was completely devastated. I think a very important part of me died when I found out the truth.


That was 3 years ago. We are still married and are now quite happy. How did I move on after that?



1. I decided that I owed it to my kids to try everything I could to keep their family together.

2. I decided that I would not make any decisions for one year. I gave the M my all for one year. No expectations.

3. I finally found MB which taught me how to affair proof the M and make me feel safe again.

4. MB also taught me how to rebuild the romantic love.

5. I still struggle from time to time with the lying part. When that happens, I look at what FWH is doing NOW. That person who could so easily look me in the eye and lie is my OLD husband. My NEW husband is a treasure.


You can move on 20years. It is not an easy road but it is well worth it. Get your WW back home. Affairs are an addiction and your WW cannot break it on her own. Rebuilding the love and feeling safe will never happen from a distance.

Expect your willingness to reconcile with WW to change on an hourly basis. It is a rollercoaster.



How did you get to the point in which you were able to visulize and see your NEW husband? What did take to get there?

How did you get to the point where you could really SEE the NEW husband? and no the OLD husband?

To me, only the most committed, remorseful, regretful, desperate to make things right woman would be welcome in my marriage. She has done all that I ask and I have spent a lot of time trying to make things right with her.

I left zero room for fog, withdrawal, or any obstacle she could have put up since our dday. My wife was in a long term affair so not to have any fog or withdrawal is an interesting nugget. How is it possible? She did not like him very well over last period of time yet ADDICTION to the life she was able to maintain with him allowed her to do things that really make no sense, in hindsight.

So, how do I know shes for real? I dont. I have let her earn my trust with actions. And she has been amazing despite me being a basket case.

How has she earned your trust?

This is what I plan to submit to her.
___________________________

Please think about this. These are my terms for our future. I know there are no guarantees and would look at this as a trial period for 1 year to see how things play out. If you can agree to this, I am ready to move forward with our future. A breach of any of this things means and end to us.

I still want you in my life, and I still want to be in yours.

1. Move back into the house
2. Complete transparency - cell phone, computer passwords, telling me where you are at and when
3. No more social networking sites
4. No more opposite sex friendships
5. No overnights apart
6. Commitment to Marriage Builders program to learn how to affair proof our marriage and rebuild our romantic love.
7. Continue counseling indefinitely (individual and together)
7. Tell me immediately if contact in any form takes place
8. Have a wonderful time enjoying each other every day!!!!!!

Just my opinion. I think removing these parts makes you sound strong and determined.

ETA: I'm not sure about #7 Counseling... unless it is with the Harleys. Most counselors seem to focus on naval gazing with no real plan for recovery.

It is very clear in his "actions" and lifestyle. MB calls it EPs (extraordinary precautions) which set up boundaries to protect the M. These would be your terms for her to return home.


My FWH had to make a complete change in his lifestyle. This was my requirement for ME to stay in the M. My NEW husband behaves in a way that protects our M. It is easy to see "actions" and easy to verify with keyloggers, etc.

In the early recovery days, covertly verifying his actions was crucial in helping me to rebuild my trust. Seeing him be honest when he thought I wasn't looking was very comforting. Now I just feel the need to verify at odd random times.

I won't lie...it took years for me to feel safe with him again. And I will never again have blind trust in him. But that is what MB teaches us...blind trust is a recipe for disaster in any relationship.

ML is right. Have your WW post here. We can tell if she is really serious or not and also help to point her in the right direction.

I think you have a good chance of recovering your M if you get WW back home and implement the MB principles.

I understand you concerns on the counselor. We had a really bad one for months which didn�t really help much. We changed and found a very goal and results oriented counselor who has similar philosophies as Dr. Harley. We are reading following Fall in Love Stay in Love and Surviving Infidelity for the 2nd time and plan to follow these principles to the letter.

20years. This was my own private plan about waiting one year to decide. My FWH did not know about this. I didn't want it to seem like a test.

I gave him my conditions and left it at that.

Dr. Harley�s thoughts on trust have been a struggle for me. I was raised in the best possible environment a person could ask for. My parents never had an argument (at least that I ever saw). My father was a minister and an engineer. Very successful both personally and professionally. Trust seemed to always be a given. I admit that I did trust myself and my wife too much. Thinking that I should NEVER trust her is just very hard to wrap my arms around. I completely understand what he means but at the same time, it goes against what I have always known.
But, look where going with �all I have ever known� has gotten me. Trying to figure out how to get there mentally.

Maybe I need to keep that to myself.

Think about it this way. If your WW is serious, she will invite you to snoop on her. This is one way for her to EARN your trust. It is win/win for both of you.

Well, it looks like things might be finally finally moving in the right direction. After 14 months of HELL, we seem to be in full recovery mode now. She has agreed to all of my conditions (see below-sorry to plagiarize this list but it was spot on to my situation and hit the target) and will be moving back in right away.

I hope others that read my story will find some HOPE. My only regret is that I didn't ask for help on this site earlier. Dr. H's plan DOES WORK and if you follow it, with the right attitude by my WW of course, things can get better.

Here were my conditions which she agreed to:

A) I will protect my spouse and their feelings above all else.
B) I will not participate in any one-on-one meetings with anyone of the opposite sex.
C) I will not discuss my personal marriage issues with anyone of the opposite sex.
D) I will not attend clubs, strip joints, or any such establishment
E) I agree to use Policy of Joint Agreement as a basis for all decisions.
F) I will be open and honest with my spouse at all times about the past and present.
G) I will provide my spouse a daily schedule of all appointments and contact information.
H) If I need to make an adjustment to my schedule, I will notify my spouse of the change immediately.
I) I will make my spouse�s phone calls my highest priority by answering them or returning them immediately.
J) I will avoid all social media outlets.
K) I will trade phones with my spouse at any time they request, NO questions asked.
L) I will leave my phone accessible to my spouse at night/or anytime I�m home.
M) I will commit to at least 15 hours of undivided attention with my spouse to meet each other�s Emotional Needs every week.
N) If AP finds a way to make contact, I will immediately end the contact and notify my spouse about it immediately after.
O) I will install a keylogger, GPS, or any other tracking system my spouse may request.
P) Anytime I have the thought, �I don�t want my spouse to know about��.�, I will call my spouse immediately and tell them my thoughts.
Q) Children do not speak to any men when I am not around.
R) Be accountable for my time 100% of the time.
S) I will not spend any nights away from my spouse


Enthusiastic agreement was the only way I could possibly invite her back in the house and commit to our future.

To anyone who reads this thread, LISTEN to the people on this site, LISTEN to what Dr. H recommends and more importantly FOLLOW THE PLAN without 1 ounce of variance.

Although I don�t know what the future holds for us, we are on the right path to creating a stronger marriage. My belief is that IF we both JUST DO OUR PART, this will have a great chance of succeeding.

Looking back, there we dark days. Very dark days that I thought I would never find a sense of security ever again. Emotions which I have never experienced that brought me to my knees. I am stronger now than I have ever been and have an inner peace that however this turns out long-term, I am a better person and I will be happy!

If anyone has any additional advice as to what I need to be aware of and focus on to prevent another false recovery, please let me know!!

Was the OMW ever exposed?

Does WW and OM still work together?

Great job, 20yearhistory!

20 Year,
Your wife sounds like I was. The fact that she wrote a NC letter is HUGE. That is what "did it" for me. I was able to break from POSOM after writing that. It wasn't quick or easy (as I looked at his FB page and found out he had a girlfriend and it sent me into a tizzy), but it can be done.

Your wife is making a great effort. She has realized her mistakes.

The fact that she continues NC while living apart from you is a good thing. That means she has made the decision to recover with you "on her own". You have not forced her into recovery.

However, just as Melody Lane said, you cannot repair if you're not under the same roof.

The one thing my husband did that helped me keep NC was to tell me that if I ever even look at his FB page again that we're over. I know he means this.

Make it quite clear to her that you intend to follow through on your conditions.

GET HER BACK HOME!!!!

The OM is single. They did not ever work together. He lives in another city 70 miles away. However, all communications were done via WW's work email and FB (and a secret pay-as-you-go cell phone which was returned to OM) I have complete access to her email account to cut that off and her FB account has been deleted.

I hope I am not missing anything!

Thank you for your encouragement! As you said, this was HER Decision to do it on her own. Actually, this is an important aspect for me. Never did I want her to do something she didn't want to do. It had to come from HER heart.

I am also starting to recover some level of respect for her. Her words and actions are affecting me deeply. Now, if we can just keep down the road of �straight and narrow� we can come out of this dark tunnel. I do love her deeply. The kind, wonderful, loving, trustworthy woman I married 14 years ago is starting to emerge. Let�s just pray it is sustainable long-term.

20yearhistory, setting up extraordinary precautions is the FIRST STEP in recovery. If you don't do the next steps, you will end up right back where you were. You are now in a crippled version of the pre-affair marriage. And it was the pre-affair marriage that led to the affair. So what you have to create is a romantic marriage that is much better than what you had before. If you don't do that, then she will likely have another affair and/or you will never replace the resentment you feel now. If you create a GREAT MARRIAGE, your resentment will fade and she will be unlikely to have another affair.

So, now the hard work of recovery begins. You can do this on your own by using the books Surviving an Affair, Lovebusters and the workbook OR you can sign up for the MB program online. It runs about $1000 and goes for a year. They assign you a coach and walk you through all the lessons. You have daily access to Dr Harley. Some of the best recoveries on this forum went through the program. [mine included] Another way is to get phone coaching with one of the Harley kids, Steve Harley or his sister, Dr Chalmers. They are very good and they charge $200 a session.

If you decide to do it on your own, you have the MB radio show to use as a free resource. It is an outstanding resource and you can write Dr Harley for free if you have any questions/problems.

Melody, one of the hardest things for me has been March 11 � December 11. She had promised me that she ended the A in March and since then, we had been working very hard on our marriage. We both were reading Surviving an Affair and also Fall in Love, Stay in Love. That is why it was so shocking to learn that communications had still occurred through December (email only).
We believe that we have identified those elements in our marriage that made her vulnerable and also my shortcomings through the years. The EN questionnaires pinpointed both of our shortcomings in each other�s eyes. What is SO gut wrenching is that while we were working on our recover (or so it seemed) they were continuing to have spotty contact. That is why is way so devastating to learn that contact was not ended.
I truly thought we were well on our way. I was so proud of her that she ended it the way she did. Unfortunately, that was not the case. In some ways, this is much more difficult for me to deal with.
As we look at our current state, we both believe that our marriage problems have been identified and resolved. I know what she needs from me, and she knows what is most important to me. We are committed to this process. At least I know I am.

Who returned the phone?

From the point of a BH I would of introduced that phone to my very good friend Mr Ballpeen Hammer. Then tossed it into the garbage. No way would I of paid postage or let my WW spend family money on postage.

If OM complained about not getting his phone back I would of said: what phone, you mean there was a secret phone, that was a good I don't what phone your talking about. Then hang up after telling OM any more breaks in NC you were getting an RO.

Well here is an update and I need some help!

WW moved back in this weekend. EP are in place and she is being completely transparent. She is doing her part meeting my EN's, I am meeting hers. She is really focusing on the present and the future and trying to let go of the past.

I really think we are on the right track and all the components are there for a long-term happy marriage. Of course I am not taking her word for anything and am watching her every move including cell phone, email etc. The energy between us right now is really postive.

Here is my problem. I feel I am holding up our progress, having trouble letting go of the past. I read a lot of their email exchanges and it has burned a hole in my head and my heart. Lots of triggers. Everywhere I turn.

I want this to work. We are following the MB principles closely. Our 2 young children are thrilled that she is back in the house.

I am having trouble purging these email words out of my mind. I don't know how to really focus on the NOW and let the past go. I know that this must happen for this to work.

How do I let the past go? She has answered all of my questions. We have found the root problems in our marriage and they are now fixed (hopefully for ever). We have agreed that if we BOTH just do our part, we can make it.

The problem is, I don't feel like I am doing my part by letting the past go. I don't think I really know how to. Is it just a matter of letting time heal?

I don't want to hold us back! I want to propel us.

Time and security in the relationship is what it will take, you have to believe in the faith that it will all work if you both give it your best effort and put together a great plan with the help of MB and you should be happier than you have ever been....
some people are better than others at doing what you say is needed, Neverguessed seems to put things in very good perspective without wasting valueable time, to me it's a gift, I constantly have to give myself the talking to and I have learned to think before I speak and to constantly look at the bigger picture.......
I wish it was easier, I will be interested in the answers you get as well..........you focus so much on getting the waywards back you forget about your own emotions and the right to feel the fears.........
Your spouse is just as scared, honesty and communication and a great plan is crucial.....
good luck and I am very happy to hear you are again living under the same roof.....

20Y. Just letting the past go is not a good plan. Your feelings are normal and justified. They will not go away overnight just because WW has moved home.

You are struggling right now because you still do not feel safe...and why should you. Your WW now needs to EARN back your love and vice versa.

Read this Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?

It gives a good PLAN to help WW make you feel safe.

You also need to have at least 20 hrs per week of UA time to fall back in love. Once you start rebuilding the love and feeling safe again ... the bad memories will start to ease. It takes time... a lot of time.

Go easy on yourself. Click on the "surving infidelity" link to the right of this page. There are many good articles on restoring the M.

You got the Harley books so what are you doing to recover?

Are you verifying NC?

Has all avenues for contact between AP's been eliminated?

Time for memories triggering you do not take weeks but months to years.

So try to remove triggers. And when you do try to occupy you mind with other thoughts or activities.

Road, we have Surviving an Affair and Fall in Love, Stay in Love. We have read them both. The EN�s questionnaire has been most useful. Our goal is to take the EN questionnaire once a month indefinitely to continue to gage these things.

We are spending a lot of quality time together and the physical aspect of our relationship has never been this intense. (Hey, not complaining!).


Your question for all avenues for contact being cut off seems to be in place. However, anyone can open up an alternate email account and you would never know. My Hope is that the EP�s are being followed and will continue to be.

Until this experience, I haven�t really ever been had an obsessive personality. Pretty laid back actually. Boy has that all changed.


How do you ever REALLY know there is no contact? I f you see my list above, EP�s are in place and being followed. How can you ever REALLY cut off all contact if contact wants to be made? I do monitor her work email (which was how they communicated). We are building an integrated lifestyle.
In some ways, I wish I would have never read their email correspondence. Those words haunt me.

That's why you use a VAR in the home and WW car. Use a key logger on the computer.

20Y. As your WW comes out of the fog, these words and emails will begin to haunt HER more than you. You will know it when you see it and it will also help in making you feel a bit safer... as you see her "warm and fuzzy" memories of her secret fantasy life crumble and reality kick in.

Don't focus on the meaningless things the waywards told each other. It was a fantasy life filled with lies and deceit all around.

Wanted to give a quick update and have a question.

WW (FWW?) moved back in 3 weeks ago and besides a few small speed bumps (mainly me dealing with resentment and anger) things have been going very well.

All EP's are being followed through on, we are spending 15hrs/wk UA, just finished reading SAA together and now are going to start reading Fall in Love, Stay in Love together.

All in all, things are good. I have been reading about accountability for those who utilize Dr. Harley's counseling program. At this time, we have decided to utilize all the MB principles on our own. I am curious as to any suggestions and thoughts in terms of accountability.

What do they exactly mean by accountability, how is it monitored and how does this work? Just looking for some clarifications.

One other issue. I have a problem with �all avenues for contact between AP�s been eliminated�. This is an issue with me and we are trying to use POJA to come to a mutual situation that works for both of us.

The majority of the A occurred using her work computer. She works for a judge and changing her email address is a challenge in this situation. We have discussed the exact process IF he would contact her via email or phone. It is also a trigger for me because I associate the affair everyday she goes to that office.

Although, his email addresses have been blocked, certainly an alternate email could be created and �get through�. Also, he could call her direct phone number at any time.

We are in agreement that if he would call, she would say �I told you to never contact me again. We will be starting the paperwork for a restraining order today� and then hang up. If an email would appear (I monitor her work email as well), she would not open it and notify me immediately.

However, my concern is that �all avenues for contact between AP�s� have NOT been eliminated. We have discussed her quitting her job as well.

Part of me thinks because romantic love for us has mainly been restored, we are strictly using MB�s that things will be fine. The other part of me wants to eliminate ANY POSSIBLE means of communication.

I would say that your W needs to find a new job. I can't see how she cannot be triggered herself by being there. It is like the recovering alcoholic working at the old watering hole and trying not to drink. It keeps the addiction at the front of one's mind by staying in the crime scene.

Well, FWW and I are a full 3 months into our REAL R and it is going very well.

EP's are being followed, getting a strong 15-20hrs/wk UA (with date night every 2 weeks), EN's on both sides are being met and I have to say we owe it all to MB's!

We are a LONG way from full R but see the possibilities that our marriage can be better than either of us could ever imagined.

FWW is showing a strength I have never seen before. Her remorse and boundaries are just what I had hoped for. From my side, she says all her EN's are being filled and I have eliminated all the LB's which caused her love for me to be destroyed.

We read SAA together and are now reading Fall in Love Stay in Love, a chapter every night. This has been very insightful for both of us. Next is Love Busters.

I hope others can gain some HOPE of their own hearing our story. I really belive we can and WILL have a full R. She is determined to prove hershelf to me that she can live an honest life. She says her honor, integrity, respect and honesty are extremely important for her to regain. Not only in our marriage but for herself.

My catch 22 is I still have a wall up with her that are not allowing me to fall back in love with her yet. How can I fall back in love with this wall up?

I figure that if I don't fall back in love with her just yet, if she would slip on her end, I wouldn't be hurt as bad.

Have you read this by Dr. H?
How can trust be restored after an affair

Time and continuing to fill the LB and avoid lovebusters. When your LB is full you'll be in love.

Hello and congratulations for finding MB. MB saved me.

Did your wife find another job? If not then does she know that her working there is a trigger for you every time when she leaves to work?

This is very serious issue. Recovery after the affair does not take months but years and having triggers not removed makes things even worse.

To have walls up is perfectly normal. It is her job to restore trust towards her not yours. And leaving that job would be huge if she wants to prove herself.

Beware of anger periods around 6 months and 1 year mark.

Good catch Mr. Recon.

20years what's your plan for this? She can't work with OM because there will never be true NC.

She does not work with OM. He lives in another town about 70 miles away. Not even a remote possibility that I would be willing to participate in our R if they worked together.

However, the majority of the A occurred while at work on her computer there. This is a trigger for me because our lives seemed relatively normal day to day throughout her A. My safety feels threatened everyday when she leaves for her office. Although she had IT change her email address so he can�t get through (and I have access to her email), I can�t access her web activity.

She is very good about being transparent (or so it seems, how do you ever REALLY know?). Tells me exactly what she is doing all the time. And I tell her my schedule as well. There is a good possibility that the judge she works for will be moving to another sector and she will go with him. Hopefully this will happen in the next month which would be a big relief.


The other big issue for me is that there is someone she works with that she has been friends with for like 15 years. This person is an enemy of our marriage. She had an A on her H years ago and was an enabler for my W. She covered for her, and lied to me throughout the course of the A. It seems they are now just existing to work together and not discussing personal matters. I have made it abundantly clear how uncomfortable this person makes me feel and will not be accepting of their friendship.


Additionally, this �friends� husband does not know that she had an A years ago on him and they are still married. I frequently grapple with the idea exposing her affair to him. I see her as a despicable person and part of me thinks her husband has the right to know the truth about the woman he is living with and married to.

I know I would want to know.

Good glad to hear she doesn't work with him.
What about stopping in at her work and checking her history? A surprise visit?
She needs to drop this toxic friend. If she is serious about recovery she will.

You answered your own question the BH of your WW needs to be told about his WW's affair.

Why not tell him?

20yh,

and lied to me throughout the course of the A.

Then tell her BH the truth for 10 minutes, How much do you know about this friends affair? There is a good chance her BH already knows something but was never able to prove anything just had a sick feeling that never left him.

God Bless
Gamma

Good idea! I might just have to pop in and see what�s up.

I don�t know why I hesitate in telling him. I need to think of this further. At least my W realizes she is toxic. I didn�t think she would drop her friendship with her. But, she has. For this I am very proud of her.

I wish everyone on this site had a repentant spouse as I. She told me last night how happy she was that even in the wake of DDay that I continued to try to work out our M. She didn�t understand why I did it. Looking back she says she knows how much pain she caused by her actions to the entire family.

I told her that I even though nothing I did justifies her actions (she agrees), I held much regret for my behavior in the past which contributed to the breakdown of our M. I told her I was determined to fight for my family and prove to her that indeed I had changed my behavior. You know, eliminating all LB�s. However, I would NOT have continued if I would have known she was still in contact with him during our FR. It would have been over forever.

A silver lining is that she now realizes her AP was not a good person. She realizes she had glamorized vision of who she MADE him out to be. He only loved the way he made her feel. She did not love him, just the �high�. This has been a relief for me. If I felt she still loved him or thought he was indeed a good person, I don�t think I could continue.


Thank goodness for the lifting of the fog! They see things so much more clearly once the source of the addiction is eliminated.

She is truly grateful that I stuck with my plan to bring us back together. I in turn, am truly grateful she was able to come out of her fog and recommit to the M.

Today is a good day. Our love for each other is growing day by day.

I need to take this into serious consideration. I think he deserves to know the truth. You make an excellent point. Thank you.

I think part of my hesitation is that I am so focused right now on us, I don't want to bring anymore negativity or drama into our currently great dynamic.


Telling him is indeed a distraction from us right now. We also have other friends who are currently going through marital problems. We are choosing to not involve ourselves in anyone elses business at this time.

20yearhistory, I agree you should tell the husband if you truly do have information about an affair. That woman sounds like a rat and I have no doubt she had some influence on your wife when it came to her affair.

So glad to hear you and your wife and doing well. And I agree with the others, your love will come and your walls will come down with time. It takes time to restore trust.

You are doing ALL the right things! These are the things that will transform your marriage.

Thank you so much. I truly believe MB saved my M.

To anyone else reading this thread; know you can beat this evil demon of A's. I am not out of the woods yet but see bright lights in the future!

I see our relationship reaching new heights I never thought possbible.

We both now realize what we almost lost and how sacred our M really is.

I view telling him as a positive thing in every way because you would be standing up against adultery. THAT is the kind of dynamic you want in your marriage; one that defends marriage. It would be throwing water on the witch who is the enemy of your marriage. Maybe if her husband knows what she does, it will make it harder for her to spread her poison to other marriages.

Interesting point, ML. I had not thought of it in this regard.

I know what I must do.

Exactly. You can't assume her BH knows. He needs to be told.

What proof is it that you have?

The only thing I know is that my W told me she had an A. I do not have any details or specifics at all. I don't doubt that it happend but have zero proof.

Would your wife know?

Okay, now you are getting into the danger zone 

Asking my W for details of her friends A at this time? Whew. Not sure I am up for that right now. Maybe later but don�t think I am ready to breach the subject in that detail at this time.

The main thing is that she is not a friend of my W anymore. This was a big step in showing her commitment to our M. She is indeed RAT (well I can think of other adjectives that I like better!) I will have to bite a hole in my bottom lip if I ever see her again to not tell her exactly what I think of her as a person. No respect for me. No respect for my children. No respect for my W!!

I have done a lot of thinking of those who would help enable someone to carry on an A. Is that what a true friend does? I don�t think so. I think a friend steps in and says �hey! what you are doing is wrong! stop it now. I will not be part of this horrendous behavior�.

I have another problem with my SIL. She also knew that my W was staying in contact with OM during our FR. He called her pouring his heart out after I exposed him to his family.
HAHAHA! Loved it. I obviously hit the bullseye. He was freaking out. She also agreed that he could text her to see how my W was doing!! What the hell? All the while, my SIL never said a word to me or encouraged my W to end her horrible interactions with him.

She was fully aware that I was under the impression that all contact had ended but did not do a DAMN thing about it. I am very troubled right now in what to do with my SIL.

Is she a friend or toxic element to my M?

Why not ask SIL why she didn't support your M at the time?

Is this your wife's sister? May be that blood is thicker?

I told a BW of her WH's affair that he told my WH. She was very happy for the info.

Although they call each other �sisters� it is only by marriage. It is her bothers wife.

That is a good way to ask her. Why didn�t you support our marriage? I think that is exactly what I need to know.

I feel I need to know what kind of person she is. Her previous husband cheated on her 8 times so I know she is very aware of infidelity. Also, my BIL�s wife left him for another woman several years ago.

I can�t believe how much infidelity has penetrated my family. Just makes me sick.

20yr. Your WW was here asking how to handle the triggers ...Wendy's and Siverados...yet she failed to mention this really huge trigger concerning her job and the toxic ex friend who also works there. Here is what I posted to her and I specifically talked about the job because you had been posting about that:


I thought it was interesting that she ignored my post. What are her reasons for staying there when clearly it bothers you?

Good 20years.

Maybe you be the first in this family to start standing up for fidelity and you make them all aware.

Ask your Sil why she didn't support your M.

20yr, I would be asking that SIL why she didn't tell you. She will probably say something stupid like "it wasn't my place....blah, blah..." I don't think most people possess the linear logic to see through that flawed thinking and that is probably why she didn't tell you. She might be a good person who thought she was doing the right thing.

At the very least, you can express to her how betrayed you felt by her keeping this secret from you.

She told me that she would be willing to quit her job today if I wanted her to. (and she meant it which was encouraging). She stays because it is a career she has build for 15 years.

Because she is being so transparent, I am somewhat okay with her continuing there at this time. We can use her income. Also, there is a pending real possibility she will be moving positions with the judge she works for. He had an opportunity last month and it fell through.

I really don�t think her job is a trigger for her. It is for me. If I thought there was any funny business going on. 1st I would insist she quit at a minimum but most likely go straight to D.

Our boundaries are not negotiable. She knows this very clearly.

Agree 100%. When the time is right, I am going to have this discussion with her. Not right now though.



What I don�t understand is how a friend would ever say �I just want you to be happy and am willing to support your decision�. What has happened to our society where people think it is in their best interest to always follow their feelings?

There ARE right and wrongs. There are guiding moral principles in life. To me, a friend stands up and calls someone out for bad, immoral behavior. Isn�t that a true friend?

Hey, my feeling might say I want to quit my job and just lounge around all day because I don�t want to work. My head tells me differently.

SO many people are blown in the direction their �feelings� tell them to go. What happened to using your head and accountability for our actions?

Dr Harley nailed it �feelings follow actions�. Probably my favorite 3 words he has ever written.

I don't mean to be harsh but that is very noble of you 20years. I would love to see her just go out and find a new job on her own...because it is a trigger for you. Then you would not have to just suck it up.

Things like that used to start to eat away at me.

Hi 20year,

I noticed you posted this on another thread

Do you mind posting your experience on our False recovery threads so posters can learn? Thanks in advance.
False recovery need voices of experience

Pepperband, if you are out there I would like to get your take how after EP's have been established, transparancy is excellent and you are treading down the road 6 months or so into recovery.

You mentioned things get more difficult. Please elaborate.

I see that your wife has been posting on the forums. How are things going on your end?

Evil flourishes when good people do nothing. It truly is a shame. Keep those words also in your mind as you continue with your life. I can virtually guaranty you that you will make a substantial difference some day if you do: I did.

I don't have any experiences in life that compare to this to (fortunately) but based on reading of other's experiences on this forum; I guess we are doing pretty well in terms of R.

Some have said that a remorseful W is about as good as it gets.

I won't lie. It is extremely difficult at this stage, 6mo's into R. Now that our family is kind of 'back to normal' so to speak, the reality of the situation is really sinking in.

I struggle sometimes letting my guard down to really connect with her on an emotional level. She has been doing her part. Over the last week, she has come to the realization that she must drive this R. The FR we experienced has become more difficult to process and deal with than the original A itself.

Sometimes I just won�t allow myself to become emotionally vulnerable with her in fear that she could slip back to her former self. Although she reassures me that it will NEVER happen again, of course I still wonder.

Until I can let my walls down with her, I know we won�t ever reach that level of closeness we both want.
The EP�s and commitment to MB�s is what is allowing me to continue with the R.

Sometimes it is all I can do to just keep moving forward. I do however struggle with how to effectively meet her EN�s when I still have my guard up. This makes me feel guilty at times.

My wounds are still very deep. This is going to be a long road. I struggle with detachment and anger at times.

I am 13 months into R, and I can definitely relate.

In addition to a rigid following of MB principles, what has helped both my FWW and me immensely was finding good profession help. I had access to a psychiatrist who was treating my autistic son, and he put me on some anti-anxiety medication that helped a great deal. We found a therapist who supported MB principles and met with us every week. That personal contact was very helpful. It has been two months since we have needed to go to the therapist and just as much time since I have needed the anti-anxiety medication.

Dr. Harley talked on the radio program last week about how BS's can expect to feel from time to time like the A was just discovered and that they have gotten nowhere in recovery, but as time passes, these episodes last less and less time and become more and more infrequent. He said if you just hang on, the feeling passes and you are OK. He said this is normal for the first two years, and can happen even five years out. That is me right now. About once every two days or so I feel momentarily overwhelmed, and after an hour or two, it passes and I am OK.

So you need what I need, which is just time. The trauma of an A does real damage to your brain. It takes a long time to heal. Don't judge yourself for keeping your guard up. You should.

Living in a marriage that does not feel safe is a massive adjustment for me. My family and home was always my safe place to get away from the stresses in work and life.

Now, oddly enough, work is my safe place. It is secure, I know what to expect and can handle the day to day challenges my career brings me. Last December, I was honored with the Employee of The Year award which came as a shock and I was deeply moved as my direct manager was aware of my personal struggles at home. How I even kept my job after D-Day is sometimes a mystery to me.

I hope someday, my home will once again become my safe haven.

I was wondering what opinions might be to share or not share what happened with our 7yr old son and 5yr old daughter. They were never told what happened. When mommy moved out, we didn�t discuss much with them. I didn�t have MB at the time. I haven�t discussed this with FWW and am torn as to the potential benefit of telling them at this stage. They see mommy and daddy generally happy now.

Dr. Harley advocates telling little ones as young as 5 but my understanding is that it puts pressure on the WS to end their A and another layer of accountability.

I have a long thread in recovery that is wrought with my inability to take down the wall, let my guard down, allow my FWH to meet my EN's fully, etc. etc. I am the queen of resentment and not being able to let go of the past. I know all about where you are. My DDay was almost 2 yrs ago (although we were not constructively working toward R since then), and it hasn't been until the last couple of months that I have felt comfortable doing that.

For me it came with not just time, but seeing an eventual change in my H. It took him a long time to fully comprehend the hurt and damage he had caused by many of his actions. And even longer to understand that this would NEVER be able to be swept under the rug. He had to finally commit to driving the recovery bus, and that made the difference to me.

And, I told him I would give him until the end of the summer and if he didn't pull out all the stops, I was leaving. And I decided to put 110% between now and then to make sure that I had done everything I could do before I left. And somehow magically, it has turned everything around.

I just needed him to want this more than I did, and fight for me, I guess. But it sounds to me that you think your WW is? Do you feel like she is 100% committed to this, prioritizing this recovery, etc? Do you feel like she understands the depth of the pain she has caused you? These were my roadblocks. Until I could answer yes to these questions, I could not recover.

I have a 5, 9 and 11 year old. I have chosen to not tell them about affairs. The A's in our situation all happened prior to DDay, some by several years, there was no ongoing activity, so I felt it was unnecessary. But I know there are probably many MBers who would disagree with that statement.

That being said, if in discussion any of my kids ever asked me about affairs (like when they get older and understand relationships more), I will tell them the truth, of course.

Thank you for your thoughts. I really appreciate them.

The fallout of the FR has changed my mind set to basically question everything I perceive as reality in my life, not just in recovery.

So the questions you posed are the million dollar ones. You know?

Is she truly remorseful? When she says she understands the pain, does she really? When she says she is 100% committed to recovery, is she? When she says there has been NC, is that true? Has she lied to me even 1 time since we began our real recovery in January?

Her actions seem to say yes. I do not take anything at face value anymore. When something questionable occurs, it is questioned, validated and confirmed. Then I move on.

What I do know is that any breach of our EP's and she is out for good. No more chances. None. Done. Period. She knows this very clearly.

I will accept nothing short of Radical Honesty. The way I look at it is that she lied to me for nearly 2 years and she has now been seemingly honest for 6mo's. I would have to be a fool to trust her at this stage. Only many, many, many, MANY months of good, consistent behavior is going to prove anything to me.

She is making a great effort to meet my EN's. When the truth was revealed in January of the FR, her LB account with me went completely in the negative. All the love that remained after the A, vanished. I was completely out of love with her.

At this point, I can feel my love growing but I am not fully back in love with her yet. It just isn't there. I am trusting the good Dr that Feelings follow Actions.

The other reason Dr Harley advocates this is because children will draw their own conclusions, too many parents think their children are ignorant of what's happening (they aren't and really, we need to give our kids more credit than this).

Children by their very nature and mental capacity are inherently selfish - especially a 5 and 7 year old, they just don't have the mental capacity to understand judge the situation and realize they had no part of it.

This of course, varies by age.

A 17 year old might think "why are you guys doing this to ME"
A 7 year old might think... "why did *I* make you do this to our family"

At 7months into R, many things are swimming in my mind. So much has been lost but so much can be gained.


We both want the same thing. A long-lasting healthy, happy marriage. Things have settled down and FWW is doing everything within the MB program. I couldn�t ask for more from my W at this time. She asks me every day what she can do for me, monitors her LB balance closely and is meeting my EN�s.


We have 2 beautiful children. I want the best for them. We want to be an example to how a healthy marriage should be.
How do you come to terms with the loss of the sanctity of a M? Vows that were taken were broken.


Digesting the fact that certain things that were lost are gone forever is a very hard pill to swallow. Call me a sentimentalist if you will but I am a spiritual person with deep thoughts and emotions.


Sure she has committed to this M. Sure she says that she will never break our vows again. For this I am grateful. However, she has proven she has the capacity to change her mind and do unspeakable harm with full knowledge of the fallout.

Looking down the road; 1 year, 5 years, 15 years I pray she hold true to her current sentiments.

I refuse to live my life always looking over my shoulder, monitoring her every move and living in fear. EP�s and commitment to MB has been truly a blessing. It is putting us in the best possible position for success.

I have been asking myself �what can you live with long-term�. I just don�t know.

She changed her mind when she decided to have an A, she changed her mind to re-commit to the M.

With this history, what will keep her from changing her mind again?

My situation is not unlike yours, so I can tell you what I have been thinking for what it is worth.

Affairs are addictions. If you step back from the personal affront and look at it as an addiction, then ask yourself how can support your recovering addicted spouse, I think there is a lot you can do that shows Christ-like love. Watching out for your FWW and keeping her from a repeat affair is one of those things. It is not so much that you are looking over "your" shoulder as you are looking over "our" shoulder.

On the matter of long term trust - is there a BS that doesn't experience this? My wife and I are 14 months into R. My wife now reports to me that she has trouble coming to grips with her capacity to do what she did. I want to trust her, but I feel a responsibility not to. And it is not that I just distrust my wife; I seem to distrust *everything*. It was a revelation to me when I realized that I was even distrusting God.

The way Dr. Harley put it on the radio program a couple of weeks ago works for me - trust but verify. Blind trust was always an illusion. Vigilant trust is what we owe each other as a married couple.

Yes, I now question and distrust most everthing as well. Maybe I was too trusting in the past to a fault. Trust but verify is my moto too. Just exhausting....

Hi, 20year,

Your wife is posting today, and seems to be wanting to take great care of you. You are one lucky guy.

I thought I'd repeat for you some of what I posted to her. She asked what she can be doing for you to heal, and I gave this Marriage Builders advice:


1) Don't fight (don't be demanding, disrespectful, or angry). Avoid fights like they were nuclear warfare. Because they are.

2) Read what Dr. Harley has to say in His Needs Her Needs about the friends and enemies of good conversation. Practice the friends and avoid the enemies. One of the enemies is dwelling on the mistakes of the past or present.

3) Most important:
SPEND FIFTEEN HOURS A WEEK, WITHOUT AWAKE CHILDREN, BEFORE ELEVEN P.M., GIVING EACH OTHER YOUR UNDIVIDED ATTENTION AND MEETING THE INTIMATE EMOTIONAL NEEDS: RECREATIONAL COMPANIONSHIP, INTIMATE CONVERSATION, AFFECTION, AND SEXUAL FULFILLMENT. Spend 25-30 hours if either one of you is unhappy. Schedule recreational activities during which you can engage in enjoyable conversation the whole time, and practice those friends of good conversation.

Something you should be aware of is that no matter who is unfaithful, Dr. Harley often says there's a bit more of a burden on the husband in recovery. It's extremely hard for wives to be "pump primers," so you want to make sure you are meeting her emotional needs well and protecting her from love busters.

Remember, Just Compensation isn't supposed to hurt.

Dr. Harley also says to make sure that you don't become demanding, disrespectful, or angry (love busters) if your spouse breaks the rules. There will be a lot of learning for awhile, and it is easy to go back to old habits. When that happens, be sure to stay calm, and don't allow love busters to happen.

Something that a lot of people miss is that love busters have to be ELIMINATED. Not just reduced or mostly avoided.

Very important point. If you have some lingering Love Busters, that leak of Love Units may yet cost you your marriage.

Speaking from experience; my wife has one Independent Behavior that she's completely unwilling to change, and which Dr. Harley has advised me personally not to attempt to renegotiate (related to choice of religion). Pokes a hole in the Love Bank every week & every activity. Takes a lot of effort from her to make up for it, and if she's not feeling up to the task, I fall out of love with her pretty quickly. We remind one another and end up eventually spending the time together to get it back, but it's much better to be in love ALL of the time than SOME of the time!

Yes, she is putting forth the right effort in the right places to help me/us heal. She has taken the wheel of our R and is steering the ship, which shows me her heart is in the right place.

Lucky? Not sure about that. Lucky to be in this situation? No. Lucky that I have a FWW willing to do her best to make things right? Not sure there is a lot to feel Lucky for when healing from an A and FR. When I look back years from now, I think that word might enter my vocabulary. Grateful is a more appropriate word for me at this time.

MB has taught me how to define all the destructive attributes I once had and how to avoid them. I was the king of LB�s. I am a work in progress in this area. Some days/times the hurt will jump to the surface when I get triggered. Most of the time, I walk away trying to gather my thoughts without snapping at her. Sometimes it spills out.

Over the last 2-3 weeks, much of my focus has been centered on letting go of the past by not allowing any discussions about the A to enter into conversation. Focusing on the present.
I have struggled with moments when emotion floods me. Dr. Harley�s words of encouragement to say �I am having a down moment at this time� vs. �The pain of the betrayal is sweeping over me right now� has been a struggle for me when really trying to incorporate RA. However, I am getting much better at this.

UA has been somewhat of a struggle for me. Not her, she prompts UA every night. Some days I just am not into it. You know? My mind tells me to do it and it is the right thing to do. It is the most important aspect of R. However, stupid emotions get in the way.

I am an honest person with both myself and with others. If there is a problem with something or someone in my life, I address it head on.

It isn�t in my DNA to smile at someone and act like nothing is wrong when indeed there is a problem. Guess you could call me the polar opposite of �two-faced�.

So, when it comes to UA time, if I am struggling with a trigger, thought, memory etc�I am less enthusiastic to spend UA time with her.

She tells me she has never been happier in our marriage. She tells me she has never loved me more.

Although we have much to work through in our R, in many ways I feel the same (not withstanding the fallout of the A). The A aside (which is difficult to separate), with MB help, we have identified and mainly solved our M problems pre-affair.

I do love her. However, I have had a difficult time falling in-love with her again. Her LB account was so far in the red when I discovered the FR, much has to be done to reclaim the in-love feeling I once had for her.

I do know UA time is the key here. We are very compatible and really enjoy doing the same things. We always have. I know what her top EN�s are and do my best to meet them.

Our 15yr anniversary is coming up in a few weeks. Very conflicted about celebrating it. On one hand, it is a celebration of our lives together. On the other�.well let�s just say my heart is very heavy realizing a portion of these years were a lie.

Also, I am not reading her thread. Really, I don't have much desire to do so.

The actions are there and I appreciate you guiding her. The results are showing.

Thank you.

Excellent advice. Noted and taken to heart.

I hear you 20year. It took me a really long time to learn that UA time was the best way to draw me out of the low times. I had to force myself to turn "towards" FWH and not away. Sometimes all it took was a drink together out on the deck.

I found myself just left to stew when I turned away.

Who's the WW?

She is posting under: clearmind

Dr. Harley strongly suggests that you schedule this time. Get a babysitter, make a date, and get out of the house. You will be much less likely to skip it, and you will also have more energy, which means that both of you will be more fun to be around (i.e., deposit more love units).

The Critical Importance of UA Time

I'm glad Brainy posted this, 20. I fear you are lagging on your UA time. You understand the importance of it, you know your recovery depends on it, but you can't...quite...commit to it.

Your anniversary is coming up. Go somewhere great with your wife. Have a wonderful weekend, just the two of you - like it was before the kids. Your kids will survive quite nicely with Grandpa and Grandma for less than 72 hours, and you will have a wonderful memory to help your recovery. AND your kids will get the benefit of seeing a healthy family structure: parents first, kids second. When you make the kids your first priority you weaken the family structure and everyone suffers. You don't want that.

Go for walks, visit a museum, eat really good food, talk about anything other than the kids. This weekend should be all about you and your wife. Talk about things you want to do in the future. Dream about beach vacations. What country would you like to visit, and why? What recreational activity have you always wanted to try? Discuss that. Hobbies you'd like to take up? Talk about them. Talk about places you'd like to visit.

Don't talk about bills or any of the mundane 'life' things you deal with every day. Make this a magical escape. Remember what you did when you were dating and DO THAT. Actively plan this weekend with your wife: where will you go? Where will you stay? What do you want to do while you're there?

20, I am a betrayed wife, and this is one of the things we did during recovery. I can't tell you how much fun it was just planning it - and the weekend remains one of my fondest memories.

I know clearmind committed a horrible act that has damaged your marriage, but don't refuse the chance to help heal your union. It may well be one of the most rewarding things you will do for yourself.

This is from one of your posts in February: Do your part, 20. Be an active participant in your healing. UA time is like exercising a muscle: do it and build the muscle (the strength of your family.) Blow off the exercise and the muscle turns to fat and is useless for the body (your family).

We are lagging on UA time. Over the last month or so we have been somewhere between 10-15/hrs week. Not enough.

What an up and down weekend. So Friday night we had date night scheduled to go out to a new restaurant we had never been to. W met up with my mom after work to drop off the kids to spend night with grandma. So far so good.

All day long on Friday, it seemed like tension was building in me. By the time she got back from dropping off the kids, I felt like I was going to explode. Not it a mean, AO sort of way, more in an overwhelmed sense. Sometimes without warning, I just feel like everything is so bottled up inside of me. So, I was in no mood at all to go out to dinner.

We sat in the family room for over an hour while I shared with her my current state of mind. She patiently listened to where I was at while all the time she was being understanding and encouraging.

I shared with her how this experience has changed me internally.

While the A and FR was active, I knew something was pulling her away and wasn�t able to put my finger on it until dday. At times I felt like I was going out of my mind because she kept saying nothing was going on blah blah blah. Anyway, I am still trying to get my sense of �me� back at this stage.

Determining what is reality and what isn�t has become a real challenge for me at 7mo�s into R.

After an hour of talking and getting things off my chest, we had a wonderful evening with dinner and drinks.

All was going well on Saturday until I got triggered and there I was again�downhill for another 3 hours�Then BACK up on Sunday at the State Fair with the family having a great time.

Up, down, up, down.

Yep, the roller coaster is a dizzying and sickening ride for both BS and FWS.

The thing is, as you mentioned a couple of pages back in your thread, talking about the A is never useful. It's like reminiscing, only it has the opposite effect. Reminiscing over great times makes us feel happy as we relive those times together. Reminiscing about the horror of the adultery feels...horrible. Your wife can't do anything to change that past. Talking about the A brings the past into the present.

I eventually had to start using the Friends and Enemies of Conversation worksheet from the Five Steps workbook. Every single day I had to work hard internally NOT to bring up the mistakes of the past and to talk about other things instead that were pleasant and enjoyable for both of us. It's really really hard to do that, but we found that talking about the A simply never brought us any further along in our path to recovery. It made us both feel miserable.

You say that it's not in your DNA to accomplish this, that it's being two-faced. It's not in our DNA to much of anything very nice. It's in our DNA to lie, make selfish demands, commit adultery and all kinds of other bad things that make us feel great (in the short term) while hurting others. To be decent people who are good marital partners, we have to work at not submitting to our DNA.

Those UA hours need to be the best times of your week, something you both look forward to. Do fun things together, exercise together, use the friends of conversation to make it pleasant for both of you.

This takes an hour-by-hour, minute-by-minute commitment. Your FWW can never do anything to change her past, but you can both make the present enjoyable and protect your futures by practicing the EPs for life and by building a romantic passionate marriage.

We're a year and a half past D-Day and my H has worked very hard at rebuilding what he destroyed with his adultery. I've worked hard, too, at making sure I am the person he enjoys most. A good part of that is not talking the A anymore, because he CAN'T change the past.

20years. I could have written your last post myself. They say at about 6 months into recovery the resentment kicks in. Right about the time you start to feel safe and see that WS "gets" it. That's when the shock wears off and reality kicks in. I think it was the most intense anger I have ever felt in my life. It would just hit from out of the blue for no reason.


You probably think that maybe something is wrong with you because you are still struggling. Nope. You are normal.


There are a range of emotions that you will need to work through...it is a process. Just keep following the MB Plan and your anger and grief will get less and less.

Be patient with yourself 20years. You are doing great.

Thank you for the validation re; this is normal.

This new �normal� continues to a massive life adjustment. I don�t know what it is to feel �normal�. You know; security, low stress, peace, feeling alive.

Logic says to keep doing what we are doing and let MB with time heal our relationship. I couldn�t ask for a more remorseful W. She really is a different person now. I can see it in her. The way she is growing in learning how to communicate her thoughts and feelings, depth of her character, commitment to R, overall demeanor and attitude.

The magic comes between 15 and 16.

Be sure not to count time if it's unenjoyable for one or both of you.

Dr. Harley's UA time worksheet has a column for each of you to fill in how many hours of UA time you actually got. So, if you spent 3 hours together, and you had a great time the whole 3, but she didn't enjoy the last hour for some reason, you should put down 3, and she should put down 2. Then to count for the week, you take the LOWER number that each of you put down. The lower numbers for each day have to total 15 for the magic to happen.

Be sure to make it enjoyable for her, so she will feel motivated to do it. I know that sucks, as the betrayed husband, but there really is a big burden on you to win, establish, and maintain her feeling of bondedness. To do that you have got to follow the program, you have got to follow the rules. Friends and enemies of intimate conversation; those are your keys.

Remember that just compensation isn't supposed to hurt. Talking endlessly about the bad stuff is not going to help recovery. Sometimes you have to go practice doing something you don't feel like doing until it becomes second nature and comfortable. Along the way, possibly without realizing it, you recover.

You are on the right track, but I have to hasten to add:

DON'T keep doing what you are doing. You are missing the magical fifteenth hour. And you are engaging in enemies of good conversation.

If you keep doing this, you will not recover.

You need more than just time. You need some changes, too. Some of these changes may seem awkward or unnatural because you are not in the habit of them, or unfair because you are hurting.

BUT

the reward is a recovered marriage and a happy life. And you will find that the awkwardness, the unnaturalness, and any feeling of unfairness goes away.

That is the key. Focus on the new DW...force yourself to think of specific things that she is doing to keep you safe. If there is anything else still out there that you need her to do then let her know.


I personally had a tough time with holidays and anniversaries. Keep away from the card aisle. They are full of crap that will just trigger you. Write your own card or buy blank ones until you get past the resentment/anger phase.


Have faith 20years...it gets better. Better than you ever thought possible...but it takes time and you have to follow the MB Plan.

ETA: Marcos is right. Stop being your own worst enemy...MB helped me to recognize that too.

Let me tell you a secret about good conversation: it's not just for her, it's for you.

The fact is, you want and need a companion that you can talk to. If you look at Dr. Harley's Love Bank Inventory (the test he administers to see if people are really in love or not), one of the questions on it is "I enjoy telling him/her my deepest and most private experiences."

And if you watch a man in an affair, the way it typically starts out is he has someone he enjoys talking to.

I heard Dr. Harley answer a letter once from a girl whose boyfriend was falling out of love with her. He told her to STOP sleeping with him; she was under the impression that she was meeting his most important emotional need (SF) and couldn't figure out why he wasn't in love with her any more. Dr. Harley said that he would fall in love with the woman that he could talk to.

For this to work, of course, the conversation has to be enjoyable for both husband and wife. That will motivate you both to have a lot of it. Make it a part of the most enjoyable part of your week.

So much good advice here... and it is all spot on!

I don't have anything to add except to say that yes, 20, this is all part of the process of recovery. You MUST go through it and not around it. You also must make sure you are implementing everything in the program - and THEN, give it time.

It will not work if you don't get the UA time in. It will not work if you talk about the past.

You do have to learn to trust yourself again, as well as your wife. It's normal for that to come and go in this whole process - along with the anger and hurt. Just make sure you aren't taking it out on your wife when you have those down moments. It may feel like she deserve it - but it will not help you heal.

Get that UA time in - dream about the future. That will help get over the past.

Thank you all for your posts. I agree I must do more during our UA time to make it more enjoyable. Plus more of an effort to get over 15hrs/wk. I will focus on this.

Most of the time UA is very good indeed. W just ordered 5 steps to romantic love workbook. We are anxious to see what it involves.

Staying in the 'now' has been a process and is getting much better. As stated before, it has been a balance for me in communicating what is going on with me 'now' and not relating it into the past while using RA.

The part of 'friends of conversation' is something I want to continue to be more cognizant of.

Much work to be done! One of the big things which is getting better is feeling safe to become more vunerable to the M. W is doing much to ease my fears (with your guidance). Definetely a factor in enjoying UA time for me.

Thank you all and keep the advice coming. Very helpful.

Aren't we all typically our own worst enemy? I know I am!

Thank you.

Ok 20years. I had to think about that one and my answer is no. It is not typical.


I think that people who are their own worst enemy fall into two categories:

1. Those who do NOT recognize it and spend their life trying to figure out why everything is so hard. I bet you know a few people like this.

2. Those who DO recognize that they are their own worst enemy but for whatever reason do nothing to stop it.

Agree on both points 1 and 2, Poker. Yes, most of us probably know many people that either are in denial or are cognizant of their realities but don�t take action to make life better.

In both my professional and personal experiences in life, it seems like there is an overwhelming percentage of people tend to dwell on the negative aspects of life. As I have gotten older and wiser, I now tend to gravitate to those who are likeminded that focus on solutions not problems; Those who are optimistic and look at the brighter side of life.

Would you not agree that the reasons most people who are successful both professionally and personally have created it themselves? They have made the right decisions and choices which has allowed them the greatest odds for success.

I would also go as far as to say the opposite is also true as well.

Looking back over the last 2 years, I have really grown as a person. I do believe most people are their own worst enemy but also believe that with awareness, we can become our own best friend.

WW was definitely her own worst enemy but slowly becoming her best allie.

SIL? Own worst enemy!

Been doing much thinking concerning our 2 dear children; 7 and 5.

Exposure was done after dday #1 but not to the children.

They were told that mommy and daddy have been having problems we are trying to resolve at no fault of their own.

After dday #2, I thought our M was indeed over and I told them that our family would not be the same and mommy/daddy would not be seeing each other anymore. This was before she moved back in in Feb 2012.

After mommy moved back in, we spoke with them some stating that we were a whole family once again.

At the time, I did not have MB as a guide.

At 7mo's into R, even though the children are very happy and normal, I struggle what we should or should not do at this stage.

I have read much about exposure to the chidren.

20Year, I would just tell them straight out what happened, and tell them that you have gotten help and are working together to rebuild your relationship, and that everything is going to be okay!

Age appropriate: Mom had a boyfriend and married women don't have boyfriends nor do married men have girlfriends.

Mom had a boyfriend, it was wrong, daddy would accept that.

Up down Up down goes the recovery rollercoaster.

My need for total and complete transparency and FWW inability to do so continues to haunt me.

Small details like correspondence with our DD�s teacher concerning issues at school I am not told about, text messages with my mom that I am not told about.

1 step forward, 2 steps back. LB withdraws. This sucks.

20years. You state yourself that these are small details...so don't make it into something big. And don't allow yourself to blame every problem on the affair.

Your response to these small details is very important. I remember hiding a few small things from my own DH because I knew it would start an explosion of irrational anger. Does this happen in your household?

Why are you upset that she texted your mom?

Have you signed up for coaching with the Harley's yet?

20, how many hours of UA time have you logged this week?

These sound more like POJA issues than transparency to me. The problem is not that you are not being told, but that your enthusiastic agreement is not being sought. I would approach it from that angle.

Not upset at all that she is texting my mom. In fact, I think it is great as I want them to rebuild their relationship. That is not the issue.

No anger on my part and I am not blaming everything on the A.

I do not like surprises anymore. A large part of my ability to move forward with R hinges on her total transparency. I mean about everything. This is not negotiable.

See, during the A and FR, things were certainly off in our relationship but generally, everthing was really normal day to day. However, many things were happening behind my back which of course I did not know. This included texting, emailing and FB talk.

Fast forward to today, for me to feel safe at this stage, I want to be made aware of basically everything. No surprises. None. Not even what is for dinner.

I found that W was emailing our DD's teacher concerning a small issue at school a couple days ago and I was not told about it.

Set back my trust as I expect everything to be shared. Period. This is what we agreed upon and I am not bending.

This is what we discussed and I agree to an extent. As I said, I have no issue that she is discussing things with the teacher or my mom. None at all.

I just want to be told. I found the emails to the teacher on my own and my mom told me about their text exchange.

Found out on my own. Just like I found out about the A and FR.
On my own. I am extremely sensitive to her being proactive bringing things forward vs. me having to find out on my own.

She said she is going to focus on being more proactive sharing things. So, I am cool with that.

Is it a big deal that she emailed the teacher and texted my mom without telling me? Subject matter, absolutely not. However, my mind says 'hey, if she can't share the small things, what happens if an EP is broken? Would she tell me?"

We will see.

So did you tell her that you want to know?

What did she say?

About 8 so far. I was super tired this week with allergies and work. Just wanted to sleep after the kids went to bed.

My excuses are weak. I know. Thinking about going to the dr. to discuss why my energy levels have been so low.

Yes. No issue with me bringing forward things that are important to me.

She said she is going to really focus on being proactive with information. I really think these things just slipped her mind. Which I do understand.

Moving forward, she said she would try to shoot me a quick text like 'hey, don't let me forget to tell you about X". Or get a notepad etc. to help her remember.


However, we agreed to share EVERYTHING so, we need to share everything.

It is just so exhausting policing her. I can't do this forever. I hate finding out things on my own. I just want her to be proactive.

We have discussed it with POJA and seem to be on the same page.

Again, we will see.

It is frustrating when the BS seems to have to do a lot of the heavy lifting in recovery.

Do you think part of your frustration is the lack of UA time? And you being sick and low energy?

Have you had your T levels checked recently?

I have to give her credit. She is doing much of the heavy lifting at this stage. Don't think I would be continuing if she wasn't. Since about the first of June, she has really taken our R by the horns.

Yes, I do think lacking UA time, low energy and not feeling well is feeding into this.

I just feel tired most of the time. A trip to Doc is probably a good call. I tried AD's last year and they wigged me out. Didn't like them at all.

I think I need a blood work up to see whats up with me. Maybe my lethargic state it is just as much physical as it is mental right now.

Off for some good family UA time! It is going to be a great day. Think we might go out for some Japanese food.

We had to work together on FWH's EPs for about a year until they became habitual.

They weren't necessarily intentional breaks; more that they were his habit to speak and behave in certain ways with woman that I now find completely unacceptable. So even though he agreed to "no terms of endearment to anyone except immediate family members," he once called a woman "my flower" in an email. AND it was to a work colleague.

I called him out on it, and he tightened it up. Then a couple of other little dumb things like going a little over the top with a complement or getting too physically close to another woman. Oh, there were more than a couple of times, I almost threw in the towel wondering if he was ever going to "get it."

It just took some time and monitoring, and now he's better about building and continuing the new habits that are his EPs. They've been part of my lifestyle for many years, but he was always very familiar and chummy with women. No longer.

And yet, it's the most common situation, particularly when the betrayed is male.

Something that really helps us get through the tougher times is to have "something to look forward to". We try to always make sure we're planning some fun family outing, vacation, time away, whatever. Right now, we're planning a trip for a Shakespeare Festival with the family and a tour of Europe starting with ten days in Amsterdam, followed by backpacking for the next week across some tourist spot (just wife & I on that one, no kids). By and large, these aren't "budget-busting" kinds of activities; we plan them VERY cheap, taking advantage of every loophole to keep expenses down.

Part of the learning process is learning what kinds of things your spouse wants or does not want communicated. For instance, we agreed to share everything as well, but my wife is really not interested in my weird habit of timing how long it takes for me to digest things by evaluating the content of my stools, and reporting the results So there's a line you don't want to cross, you know? But you have to tell your spouse in the first place to know where that line is, or what kinds of things he/she does not want to know about.

Jennifer Harley Chalmers taught us a few techniques that have helped us HUGELY with our messaging.

"I love it when" statements are for when you want to reinforce a behavior that deposits Love Units. For instance, "I love it when you discuss your conversations during the day with me that night," or "I love it when I get home from long day at work and there's a meal waiting for me," or "I love it when you wake me up in the middle of the night for ((explicit description deleted))."

"I'd love it if" statements are for when you want to gently remind your spouse not to Love Bust. "I'd love it if you would close the shower curtain after you shower," "I'd love it if you'd text me when you're stressed out so that I can help," or "I'd love it if we could use some lube next time we do that."

"I'd like to brainstorm" statements are for when you know that if you used one of the above statements it would be a demand. "I'd like to brainstorm about how to get the lawn cleaned up this week," "I'd like to brainstorm about ways to help us keep in closer touch with one another throughout the day," or "I'd like to brainstorm ways to avoid chafing in uncomfortable areas when we do that thing we did in the middle of the night last night."

This post really hit home with me. Thank you DNM. I read it several times and it is sinking in.

You are so right re; things to look forward to. Our attitudes seem to be more positive when we are planning an event or occasion. We both love to travel, so do our kids, and we do stay quite active. This is good perspective to consider continuing to plan fun events both with and without the children.

I am going to start implementing the �I love it when�, �I�d love it if�, and �I�d like to brainstorm� statements starting today. This advice can really impact my own delivery during conversation. Actually, I am going to print this out as a reminder every day.

This really is a learning process for both of us. MB�s is a new way of thinking to most of us old dogs with bad habits. However, I want nothing more than to have a long-term, loving marriage with my beautiful wife (and she is quite stunning indeed!!). We both want the same thing.

Today is a good day. After a rough Friday and Saturday, things have leveled off and the energy between us is good. She even found a baby sitter which can help us out from time to time. This has been a real challenge for us as both of our parents live out of town and logistics for getting some UA out of the house is not easy.

Fortunately, it is someone that our children knew at pre-school which is a real plus. If she works out, we will definitely start asking for her help more.


UA is the key right??

Yes, both myself and W are working together to make both of our behaviors more instinctual and habitual - in a good way.

20years together is a long time to develop both good and bad habits. I think she does �get it� for sure. As you said though, they weren�t intentional breaks, more she didn�t think about certain things so in turn, we have discussed them and now we move forward.

I am excellent at being firm in my expectations and boundaries of her but working hard at becoming softer in my delivery.

What I will NOT allow is for myself to be taken advantage of and lied to ever again. What I will allow is for my inner self to become more respectful in my delivery without AO�s and DJ. Easier said than done.

Yep, those statements really transform a conversation. "I'd like to brainstorm about..." is sometimes a tough one if you don't keep the conversation focused right. You want to pick the things you are enthusiastic about, and ignore the ones you aren't! If you take the typical brainstorming approach of discussing the shortfalls of certain approaches, it makes the conversation very negative. Best to say "I'm not enthusiastic about that option by itself" and move on. Most of our best brainstorms are hybrids of several ideas, and end up something like "If we do this in this way, and that in this other way, then I'm enthusiastic about some other thing."

Be careful of time-dependent enthusiastic agreement. For instance, I was not enthusiastic about disposing of our old fridge. I gave provisional enthusiastic agreement: I agreed we'd try out this new fridge for three months, and if we didn't like it we could put the old one back. Well, I **hate** the new fridge. It's already cost us $10,000 in a flood due to a busted icemaker. But my wife is no longer enthusastic about moving the old fridge back in from the garage, and since the default position is to "do nothing", we're stuck with a fridge I hate with a broken icemaker until we come to an enthusiastic agreement about replacing it.

Lesson learned: never make an agreement based upon a future promise. One of you is going to lose in that kind of agreement.

But I do keep complaining. "I really dislike this refrigerator", "I'm unhappy this heap is still in the house," "I'd like to dispose of this refrigerator", etc. Gotta make sure she knows how I feel, as this has put me on the losing end of a POJA. However, resentment due to passivity is less strong than active resentment due to something you've done! So if I remind my spouse how unhappy this refrigerator has made me, that's much better than if I drag the refrigerator out to the front yard unilaterally and take my chainsaw to it. My resentment over the refrigerator will be gone the day we get a new one; her resentment over me taking a chainsaw to the fridge, forcing us to use the old one, would last a long, long time...


Yeah, I'd just print out:
"I love it when..."
"I would love it if..."
"I'd like to brainstorm..."



Yeah. Unless you have the time together, you'll lack the empathy to think of each other's feelings before your own.

So, things are generally better this week so far. My energy levels have been down a lot over the last 2-3 weeks and I am taking action to help in this area.

After an A, how do you know if you are 'in-love' with your spouse? Emotionally, I am drained. Reality seems blurry. Not sure what I feel some times. My logical mind knows what it thinks, which keeps me focused on our goals.

So much damage has been done but we are working the MB program to a greater goal. We have come a long, long way for sure in the last 8 months and the future does seem bright.

W knows I am not in love with her which I know is a heartbreaking reality for her. I do love her very much. However it seems more like a caring love. We have much history together with many great memories. But that in love feeling has yet to return.

I keep telling myself that Feelings follow Actions. I want to fall back in love with her but I am also honest with myself admitting I am still guarding my heart. Some days, it seems like I am just waiting to find a breach in our EP�s and for our M to be over. Not a fun way to live. I know I can only control myself.

We need more UA time. The FR was a back breaker....

You are doing great!

I think you need to let up on yourself a little. It seems to me that you are committed to your M. The MB program doesn't say that a breach in EP's should be answered by ending the M. There are more steps, specifically plan B, to go through first. You don't need to box yourself in; solve the problems when and if they happen. Like someone told me, live in the present. There is lots of logic to your M; so there is much there for you to save. Your feelings will return as your FWW makes the LB deposits that are needed to do that. You just need to patch the leaks in your LB, and you have been doing that.

Thanks for the encouragement.

That is exactly what I am counting on re; feelings follow actions.

I tend to have very high expectations of myself generally in life. It has always been that way. Easing up and becoming more laid back is something I am striving for and actually making some progress.

Thank you for taking time out of your day to provide some words of wisdom.

I hear what you are saying! I am definitely a work in progress. Dr. Harley has helped me identify many things in my personality which I have now changed for the better.

The future looks bright today. Hope I still need shades tomorrow too!

How you doing 20yrH?

Depends on the day. Lows are not as low which is a good sign. Dealing with triggers the best I can. I have made a lot of progress avoiding DJ's and AO's when I am triggered.

Very much a learning process for both of us leaning how to live this new life. However, I give W much credit for the effort she is putting into our R.

I want to thank you for helping us out. Seems like most other vets on this board have abandoned both of us. I know we could use the help. There are other new posters that come here at more of a 'critical' stage as it were (discovery and exposure stage). But, I really think clearmind and I are going to be a success story in part from your help.

I get A LOT of views on my thread but not a lot of posts from other vets and want to thank those trying to help us out. We really appreciate it.

Those vets reading this please keep in mind that others like us in R can use your great advice as well. We are 8mos into R and this is critical point in our R. We want to maintain momentum and not stall out or go backwards.

Again, advice from those who have walked in our shoes is much appreciated.

Thanks.

UGH...you are right, 20, that this IS a critical stage of recovery. I'm not a long term vet, but I will try to add more to help. I remember those days - being that it hasn't been THAT long ago - and will pay better attention.

I'm glad you spoke up and asked for help. That's good practice for asking for what you need in your marriage!

ETA: Being that I haven't been on your thread a great deal, it would help for me to understand if there are any up to date issues you specifically need assistance in navigating.

20years. You know the program and I can see how well you understand it by your own posts to others. You have made some great posts!

Ask yourself what you can do to keep it moving along. What are your weak spots and how can you strengthen them?

From what I understand the online program is designed to point you in the right direction and keep you there. You seem to be hesitant to go that route for whatever reason.

I think you guys are doing great. Said that...when I was at a point where I was feeling stuck, there was something specific that was bothering me but I wasn't sure if it was just me being silly. I moved ahead nicely once I decided to address that one thing.

Posters make connections here.
Some more, less, a lot, none.
No way is better then another.
I don't go around looking to hold hands.

You don't post with questions or ask for advice So I and most other's are going to leave you alone.

However with me and others there will always be the thread that got started and people want an update.

Writing to you has made me remember PSUBiker. That was a story and a half. It's starting the need for me to hear an update from him.

Too many people come and go. Some used MB and are in a better place. Some left before their time.

So if you are doing what you want, using MB, then don't worry about who's posting.

Now if you wanted to hear from anyone just start a new thread, example, tittled: Melodylane come to 20yearhistory's thread.
Or names, or calling all vets, or list the names of those that you want to her from.

No pressing need then don't worry who's not posting and work MB.

A couple of points about this kind of agreement.. It is perfectly ok to make such an agreement with the POJA and is, in fact, desirable. ALL decisions made with the POJA are conditional because you really don't know how each party will react to the decision until it is in place. In other words, they are based on a future promise.

That is how you ensure win/win.

For example, Joyce agreed to move to Minnesota with Dr Harley only on the condition that if she was not happy, they would move back to CA. Once they moved to Minnesota, the default position did not become Minn, but it always remained CA.

If the default position had changed to Minnesota, then Joyce would be stuck in a place that made her unhappy, which would obviously not help her marriage.

If that decision makes either party unhappy, the original agreement is OFF and you would go back to the STATUS QUO [the orginal position] until another decision is made.

In the case of the refrigerator, the default position is the OLD refrigerator. The default position does not become the NEW refrigerator since the original agreement is negated by your unhappiness, DMNM.

That being said, the default position is NEVER the desired position. The desired position is to find a solution that makes you both happy. Dr Harley said recently that if you have to resort to the default position, then don't make it longer than 3 days. Continue to negotiate until you find a good solution.

Well, Twenny...

The fact that you have any responders is a signal that there is hope. It can also be a sign that you are doing things so well that nobody really has anything to add.

That being said, it is nice to have peer support.


The other thing to consider is that you are engaged in one of the programs. There are some FANTASTIC posters here, but very few people who would take it upon themselves to contradict any advice given by trained MB professionals. So, some people may hold back and let you work the program under the direction of your coach rather than risk giving contradictory advice.

20-

The long-time, incredibly helpful posters who own the MB principles enough to offer the finest of its advice reduce their appearances on others' threads for 3 reasons as I see it:

1. the original thread's author continues to ignore advice and decides they have a better plan than what this website suggests by doing every BUT what the vets say to do

2. the initial "hot period" ends when a distraught newly BS or WS has moved in to the next stage where recovery is close (or even the big D is the only next move).

3. the thread's author has done all the right things and demonstrated the ability to fly on his own and only needs a periodic morale boost

Unfortunately there is a new person posting his or her disaster story everyday that requires the attention of the most qualified advisors. With their great power comes great responsiblity and they step up everytime.

You know who helps you get thru a bad patch by now. I tend to seek them out for that kick in the butt when needed. The day to day living we must face HAS to be done by us. The key is when you feel you made a bad play on something OR did something worthy of praise, then come here to talk about it.

Hi 20year, How many hours of UA time are you getting each week and what are your activities? What percentage is spent out of the home and away from kids?

Just wanted to point out that some of the very best vets are posting on this thread so I am confused about why you feel anbandoned? You have 2 or 3 who have even been through the MB course. So please don't feel abandoned. You are getting some of the best help the board has to offer..

Thank you for everyone who has chimed in the last 2 days. I have read every post several times and REALLY appreciate you taking time out to share your thoughts.


To all the vets who saw my concerns and I would like some help: Thank you. Thank you.


I don�t have anyone else in my personal life who I know that has walked in my shoes and can relate or offer advice. Yes, I have a loving family which gives me encouragement but they can�t empathize.

Specifically, my biggest challenges are currently coming in the form of how to deal with triggers in a healthy way.

W is doing everything right in my estimation. She monitors my EN's, asks every day if there is anything she can do for me, is very loving and proactive to working the MB program. I ask for her patience in my healing. She is very loving, remorseful�really I do feel very grateful for everything she is doing.

Dr. Harley would be proud of her. I know I am.

At times I feel guilty that I have a difficult time being enthusiastic about UA or meeting her EN's.

I do avoid LB's and AO's.

However....When I get triggered, I become very withdrawn. Triggers are EVERYWHERE.

At times I just feel trapped.

Trapped in that I know what D means. This is not what I want.

Trapped in that sometimes the waves of emotion, when triggered, are so intense I just need a release but there is nowhere to run.

Trapped in that I feel captive in my own skin and wonder how long it will take to feel normal again.

Is this normal? I know it is very discouraging to my W at times. I have always been a very positive person and I want to get that back.

Validation from others that have been there/done that helps....

Part of my problem is..I don't know what I don't know!


I am very much a problem solver and constantly look for solutions.

My thoughts and emotions since Dday have been all over the place.

I constantly ask myself 'what am I missing?" "what should I be doing that I am not doing?" "should we be further along than we are?" "Am I holding up our progress?"

It is like my mind is in a mixer sometimes....very unsettling.

Always easier to solve other's problems than your own isn't it?
lol

This is why I emphasized the UA time. Sure, you need to remove obvious triggers as much as possible, but the biggest impact will come from your UA time. Do you get the connection?

See, when you are happy in the present, you are not thinking about the tragedy of the past. That is why you need to MAKE yourself do this. Of course you are not enthusiastic about it now. But you need to go through the motions until you are enthusiastic.

You have been dealt a tremendous shock, 20, and you have to drag your body out of the ditch and follow the plan. Bring the body and the mind will follow. Get it?

The year 1999 was the worst year of my life and most people would have crawled up in their closet and called it done. I lost everything, everything. But the way I got out of that hell was to put one foot before the other and go through the motions. Today I have a happy, peaceful, productive life. You can do this too.

Do you have the workbook with the UA worksheets in it? http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6090_step.html

If not, I would order it and make copies of the worksheets.

In the meantime, I would sit down tonight with your wife and plan out your DATES for the week. Can you do that?

Write out the days, times, planned activities, etc. Line up babysitters and get moving on this!

Well, we FINALLY found a baby sitter that we tried out Saturday night. It went really well. The kids already knew her and she offered to help out anytime we needed her.

This is going to really help our UA time. Before, we have been getting an evening out without the kids every other weekend.

Okay..here come the inexcusable excuses...

We both work full time. Our son has an activity 2x�s a week for about 1-1/2 hrs. With all the stress, I have been just drained by 9:00 when the kids are finally asleep. However, I quit smoking and am taking Omega 3�s for about a week now. I feel SO much better with more energy.

We are not getting enough UA. We both know it but are determined to get this under control.

Our anniversary is this weekend and we are both looking forward to it. We have big plans at the nicest hotel in town, going to a fantastic restaurant and then the comedy club. Until recently, I had been struggling with the thought of celebrating the anniversary but I am embracing it now.

UA Time ===Not nearly enough.

Another suggestion is to never talk about the triggers. When you talk about them, you make it more real and lasting. It is also an enemy of good conversation that makes it harder to recover.

I can do this. I must do this. You are so right. UA is the key and I just have to force myself to do it. I have to find a way to JUST DO IT even when I am not enthusiastic.

We just got the workbook last week and started going through it.

I have to be brutally honest and tell you that sometimes I just feel and think that my kids deserve the UA time more than my W. MB philosophy? Nope. I know it isn�t. I just look at them and find peace (well when they are not driving me crazy!) in their little faces. I only have so much time in a day and don�t want them to feel like daddy is not taking enough time for them.

I am fighting this battle too.

This is where you should focus because this is what will make the greatest impact, the FASTEST, in your marriage.

If I were you, I would move heaven and earth to make this happen, 20. This will make you feel better much faster.

And focus on getting time out - AWAY from the kids. Waiting for UA time after 9pm is not quality time that will make much difference. You are exhausted and it is too easy to get distracted with chores. I would plan 4 nights out a week and make up the remaining 4 hours at home.

The best UA time is scheduled for when you have your greatest energy, are dressed up and look and smell nice.

I am a corner cutter by nature and I am here to tell you this is not an area you can cut corners WITH. You might as well jump off the cliff and do this one right because it will determine the quality and speed of your recovery.

I can't tell you the times I have seen people cut corners or pencil whip their UA time and their marriage never improves. Then they conclude that MB either doesn't work or that their marriage is hopeless.

Can you clarify what you mean? I am using RA really well but I am realizing there are limits in certain areas of R.

Do you mean I should not tell her when I am triggered? or not tell her what the trigger was?

The BEST gift you can give to your children is a happy, intact, STABLE marriage. Your marriage is their WHOLE LIFE. You owe it to those little children to stabilize this marriage. They are counting on you!

You should view this UA time with your wife as something that is for them.

So take that worksheet out of the back of the workbook and make copies, ok?

I can totally relate to this. I feel like I am totally lacking enthusiasm for UA time, meeting needs especially SF. From what I have read, it is normal. We have been traumatized, badly traumatized. Our world was turned upside down and we are dealing with a new reality. Our concentration and memory are compromised, our emotions are all over the place, we can go from happiness to sadness at the switch of a song, etc. Man times I wonder if life will ever be normal again, and I don't know how to handle the fact that it might not be. I feel trapped as well. Trapped in my own head and broken heart.

I know one of my problems is self-control. I have too much of it I guard my emotions and the way I display them very closely. The sadness and anger that I feel is hidden deep inside. I have 4 children and can't possibly let them see that I am still dealing with hurt. That was traumatizing to them enough after D-day. I've even had friends comment that you would never have known I had been what I've been through. While self-control can be a good thing. I think it is also hindering our (mine and yours) recovery. I think if I found a way to constructively let that out, I would feel better. Kick-boxing, P90x or yoga or something. Perhaps that would help you?

~RQ

What does RA mean?

RA= Radical Honesty.

Meant RH. Typed too fast.

You don't have to be radically honest about every bad feeling that crosses your mind. Don't talk about your triggers and don't talk about the affair. It just keeps you depressed. It is an enemy of good conversation.

[/quote]

The BEST gift you can give to your children is a happy, intact, STABLE marriage. Your marriage is their WHOLE LIFE. You owe it to those little children to stabilize this marriage. They are counting on you!

You should view this UA time with your wife as something that is for them.

So take that worksheet out of the back of the workbook and make copies, ok? [/quote]


I needed hit over the head today about UA time, ML. You are right. That is why I actually agreed to reconconsiliation re: best for the children.


If it wasn�t for my children and wanting the best for them, I don�t think I would be doing this. This is why I actually agreed to reconciliation.

I DO want a long-term, happy, loving relationship with my W. That is what I have always wanted. That was my dream. I know UA is the key. I do get the connection�

Plus, the added truth is that I am not fully back in love with her yet. I do believe feelings follow actions but darn it.. it is HARD. My LB was SO far in the red that my love just evaporated when I reviled the reality of our FR.

I want nothing more than to be back in love with her.

Note to self: Get off your butt and get some great UA! W is SO enthusiastic about spending time with me� I know it would thrill her to be more proactive from my end.



ML, I watch you post some of the most helpful advice of any on this board. When I reached out for help, I was hoping you would pick up on it. Thanks a bunch. I really respect your opinions.

I am on it!

Appreciate it! I made every mistake in the book and took YEARS to really recover so it is easy to recognize when others are dragging it out too. I am convinced that playing around with recovery just prolongs the pain. I have seen some of the most horrendous marriages transform before my eyes just because they were diligent in following the program.

Valid point MSS. I see where you are coming from. Sometimes, I tend to maybe convince myself at certain points in time I am further along than I really am. In turn, I think my posts may come across that way when really.... I am not.

However later on, I realize that was just a �point in time� when I posted and was feeling somewhat confident in our progress. I can see how others might view me as �getting it� and might be well on my way to R and divert their attention to others on the board. I understand that.

Then, WHAM, I am back to reality feeling like I am floundering along..with a plan yes, MB has truly saved my marriage, but still trying to deal with the entire reality which is my life now.

That is why I come back to this board. To learn from others and incorporate it into my situation.

Hearing success stories are SO refressing. Especially with all the heardache on this board.

When I first found MB, I was thinking, GREAT here we go, a plan, lets get down to business! We will be off and running in no time!

Little did I know that even with a plan, recovery is extremely difficult. I was looking for a thread of hope and I did find it.

However, as the good dr says, recovery is a very narrow road. Boy can I see that now. I thank god every day for giving me the strength and wisdom to deal with this experience. I do believe that he led me here.

I never ask for miracles. In my prayers all I have ever asked for through this experience is Strength and Wisdom. Strength for myself and my children to withstand the pain and Wisdom to make wise decisions through the experience in the best interest of everyone involved. I believe I have received that and in turn have made wise decisions.

I just can't imagine what my life would look like today, August 20, 2012 without MB and this board. WHEW... just gave myself cold chills.

You've gotten some great advice - obviously!

Just a few little practicals that have helped me with triggers along the way.

My first step is to seek out my H when I am feeling triggered. Of course, I don't talk about the trigger, but I just tell him what I need. "I need a hug," or if he's at work, "I just needed to hear your voice..."

If neither of those are possible, I refer back to some emails and texts that I have saved on my phone. These are things he has written to me since recovery started: things about his love for me or his excitement about our future - about his dedication, etc... Anything that puts a smile on my face.

Then, if my mind is still wandering too much, I get my brain busy. Sometimes this means a phone call to a friend; sometimes it's music to change my mood. You know the kind - the stuff that gets you all fired up and feeling good about yourself. (Everyone needs an "anthem," I say!)

There are other possibilities as well: reading a book, completing a task that requires you to think about what you're doing... playing with my dogs....grabbing one of the kids and doing something they want to do...

And, of course, I pray and call up bible verses that reassure me - or quotes that I love.

Oh, and I also keep a Logic puzzle book around. If everything else fails, I make myself do it.

You get the point: anything that engages the mind can work.

Lastly, there's always the opportunity to take those down moments and to use them to do something positive for your marriage: do something that meets a need of your wife's or work on plans for your next outing... especially if the trigger is something specific.

Hope this helps!

Sunny is exactly right! Find something positive to take your mind off the trigger and start training your brain to go elsewhere. I used to GO PLACES with my husband that kept me triggered and I would badger him about the affair when it happened.

Additionally, I used to [censored] and vent to my friends all the time about my H's affair and what a loser he was. [getting those feelings out! ] These actions kept me angry for years!

Your greatest enemy right now is your emotions so I would keep them under wraps as best you can. Rely on MrLogic to drive you out of this ditch, ok?

Yes, this advice is VERY helpful. How can I expect different results by doing the same thing? I can't.

I HAVE to get myself out of the mud when I get triggered. Usually, I just withdraw. I don't say a word but my W knows...I know she does.

My motivation just drops to zero during these times and I don't feel like saying anything about it or doing anything to make myself feel better.

What I pick up from your post is that I must start to take a proactive attitude and take proactive ACTION.

I really like your suggestions and think they will help me a lot. Thank you. I am going to print these up.

Starting today, that is exactly what I am going to do!

What are my options? Feel like crap the rest of my life and not R my M?

I said from day one of this R that I was going to do everything in MY power to do my part and be the best person I can be. I have to put my money where my mouth is. Too much at stake.

MrLogic is at the wheel now! Look out, here I come!

Again, thank you all so much. I needed this kick in the tail big time. Today I feel so energized and motivated to do my part!

W called on her lunch and I told her I wanted to sit down tonight and REALLY plan our UA time in detail. Told her I am more committed than ever to see this through and have a wonderful life with her. Shared with her the input I was getting today which was very motivating.

She was thrilled to hear the enthusiasm in my voice. Heck, I was thrilled to hear my own enthusiasm.

Today is a good day....

And when you go out, let each other pick out your outfits. My DH and I LOVE doing this because it ensures we are wearing something the other finds attractive. [just don't ask her to wear something slutty! ]

20Y, Hi! I don't post that much anymore because we're dealing with some serious terminal medical issues -- talk about a test! We're doing okay, as long as we continue to be open and honest with each other. Kinda puts everything in perspective. Our love has reached a different level.

Triggers are a fact of recovery and there's no getting around them, but you can sure get through them. You've gotten some wonderful advice about how to handle that. I remember one day early in recovery asking myself, PM, what the heck are you doing? I was sabatoging my.own recovery because I let hurt, emotional, and resentful PM guide my thoughts and words. One step forward, five steps back. What worked for us eventually was not talking about the trigger, that lead to talk about the affair, that led to AO, DJ, SD, et al., but reaching out for each other for a quiet hug, and just saying thanks, I really needed that.

Be prepared for this to happen off and on for a good while and beware when you hit the year mark and that ugly rage threatens to reappear. It does get better and easier, as long as you follow the plans. These days, its not ever an issue. Helping others also helps you grow stronger too. Hang in there, and speak up on here when you're in trouble!

Neat idea. I like that. We have a BIG night planned on Saturday night for our anniversary and this would be a good time to pick out outfits for each other.


We both dress nice but conservative out in public.

Now, what happens behind closed doors is a different matter!

Love your new attitude 20yr. Glad to see you're excited.

So sorry to hear of your medical issue. It means a lot to me that you would take time out to post under your personal circumstances. Thank you. Good vibes your way! ~~~~~~~~~~

Boy have I learned the validity to what you are saying about �working through� them not getting around them. This is such excellent advice.

And you are right I have been my own worst enemy in terms of sabotaging my own recovery. This is a learning process and think I am getting better at it. Your point reinforces the importance of staying in the �now� when triggered. This has been a massive struggle for me in the last 2 months.

I realized I am making progress when I thought my W knew I was triggered last weekend in a family outing to the bookstore. It ended up that she had no idea! I thought to myself, wow, you are making some progress! I was able to handle it without making it a big deal and ruining the day. By not talking about it and changing my focus in the moment, the trigger didn�t last as long and wasn�t as intense.

W and I frequently talk about how MB has saved our M. No doubt in my mind it was a godsend and has been the single biggest factor of us not only healing the wounds of the A but taking our M to another level of happiness and fulfillment.

The good Dr. is the real deal.


Today is a good day.

Great job!! Ok, did you sit down last night and plan out the REST of the UA time?

And keep in mind what the goal is during UA time: to meet the top 4 intimate emotional needs. Be sure and use the worksheet to rate the actual hours devoted to UA time AFTER the date. That will help you improve your efforts so you are getting the biggest bang for your buck.

Thank you!

This last 8 days have been HUGE in our R. In my mind, a giant step forward in our R.

Taking the advice given here and implementing into our daily lives has made a massive difference.

Also quitting smoking and taking Omega 3's I literally feel like a new person.

I realized I am making progress when I thought my W knew I was triggered last weekend in a family outing to the bookstore. It ended up that she had no idea! I thought to myself, wow, you are making some progress! I was able to handle it without making it a big deal and ruining the day. By not talking about it and changing my focus in the moment, the trigger didn�t last as long and wasn�t as intense.

I was motivated to have UA time last night. We planned out the next two weeks to get that 20hrs. I am prepared for down times and willing to deal with them. However, I am living in the moment which is now...I feel happy.

I am falling back in love with her.

Hey, I am a man of my word and absolutely did plan out our UA time. No way I was going to come here today and have egg on my face!

UA time looks really good over the next two weeks. Now tonight we are going to fill in all the gaps and plan exactly what we are going to do each night!

We ARE going to be a success story on this forum that everyone can point to and say 'hey, I guess the program DOES work'.

Again, I am prepared for down times but man I feel good today.

20year,

It sounds as if you are really making progress. As previously said, the UA time is huge. In our case, the greater the UA time, the less the triggers, the better the conversation, affection, recreation and sex. It all goes together.

My H and I charted our UA time for something like 70+ weeks in a row. Whenever UA time dropped below 15-20 hours/week, our feelings for each other dropped. It was quite amazing to us.

AM

I agree 100%. Every time I have felt blue in the past during recovery I IMMEDIATELY felt better if H and I spent more UA time together.

And being proactive about the triggers REALLY helps: not only does it take your mind off it, it gives you a feeling of control: that you aren't helpless in this, that you can do something about it.

Great job to you and the Mrs, 20!

Good man!!

Nice! This is huge, and will create a great memory for both of you! I was hoping you would agree to the weekend.

Have a great dinner, go swimming in the hotel pool...buy some late-night snacks - have fun! (No heavy discussions.)

We notice the exact same thing when UA is lacking.

Pre-MB I never connected the dots on the importance of UA. Actually, I didn't even think about it in this way.

Many, many marriages in our circle of friends have either divorced or are experiencing marital problems.

What really saddens me is that the first thing I see when a friend is having problems with his W is that they actually spend less time together.

Thank you so much. We are both very excited for our big night out.

Everything is lined up, 4 star hotel,reservations at a fantastic restaurant, comedy club then plenty of time to just be together enjoying each other's company.

(Triggers = please stay away this weekend) I want this to be a special night.

This sounds absolutely awesome!

If triggers pop in your mind, just force them out. One trick I read on here that was helpful to me that I forgot to mention above is to picture a red stop sign in your mind if negative thoughts pop up. Sometimes that's all it takes to redirect your thinking.

I hope you both have a GREAT time.

On another note, I really did not mean to offend on the other thread where I commented to you. You're doing a good job here.

Thank you so much for the good wishes.

Great idea on the stop sign. I will definitely keep that one in mind. We are always looking for suggestions. Maybe someday I will be a vet on here with the answers.

Nah. No offense taken at all on the other thread. Thanks for saying that though. We all have good intentions around here.

After what I have been through my skin is as thick as an elephant!

Hi 20yrs,

Here's a thread which I found very helpful in my early recovery:

Managing memories and dealing with triggers

I hope clearmind will read it, too.

Thank you. Good refresher. I have read this before.

Seems so easy on paper...Biggest lesson I learned on this is to try to short circuit my mind to stop that flood of emotions at the 2minute mark. Easier said than done.

I really understand why Dr. Harley says never bring up the A ever again. Feeling those old emotions suck.

The A is a giant distasteful meatball hanging over the marriage. As you protect yourself and her from another A, the meatball moves further away. If you bring it up in any fashion the meatball moves back over the marriage darkening the skies and making things lousy.

Eventually, Im hoping, the meatball disappears.

If you have a wife committed to your marriage and doing all the things you asked for, then YOU are the one keeping the meatball tethered to your home. Untie that sucker by not bring up the A.

Id like some spaghetti for dinner tonight.

No kidding. I do not want to be the one that prevents our R from being complete.

You just made me hungry.....

So, 15 years ago today I put a ring on my finger. It is still there and I plan on wearing it to my grave.



I am taking suggestions from all BS�s to help me coin a new phrase.

It is pretty lame but the best I have come up with is �Future-versary�

This day is to celebrate what is to come, not what has been.

I am sure Webster�s would love to add a new word to the dictionary! With all the bright minds on this forum, surly we can come up with a winner.

duh! wrong thread!!

Happy Anniversary 20years and clearmind!!

I love reading your story. You are showing such character, integrity, love and respect for your wife and marriage. It is really wonderful to experience your recovery and see your marriage blossom. I hope you and clearmind have a beautiful day. Thank you for sharing with us.

Happy "Future-Versary" anniversary.

Well...since we use "anti-versary" for the bad dates, how about "pro-verary" lol

Have a GREAT day!

HAPPY "NEW-VERSARY"

I like this!!!!

Thanks, everyone for the nice wishes.


I like the New-Versary. Good one.


Was really touched by W's card last night. It was all hand written and entitled "the 15 things I love about you" (15th anniversary)


Inside the card, she listed the most beautiful things---the 15 things she admires and loves about me.

Personal and thoughtful. Couldn't have recieved a nicer gift.

I was really touched.


Getting geared up for the big weekend now!

Yes ditto!

Double Ditto! LOL

Keep that card somewhere you can access it at will, 20. It could be one of those things that helps you when you trigger.

Hey 20years. Did I tell you about the time my FWH came home from all day convention and told me how much the receptionist really loved his jacket?

I asked him what his response was and he said "thanks" but he conveyed it to me with a big happy smile.

I felt my heart sink. He thought he did the right thing by telling me. While I thought here we go again. FWH has no clue.


So I started to teach him how to appropriately respond and react to these types of situations. The better response would have been "Thank you. My lovely wife bought it for me and I will let her know how much you liked it." That sends out the message that he is happily married.

I had to help FWH become aware of the messages that he sends out to others. Sometimes just a few simple words make all the difference. He honestly didn't know.

It takes practice to get the boundaries tight. You can't control who will approach your wife...but you can help her build her fences. You are a team.

That must have made you feel awful. I know that feeling in the pit of my stomach too well.

I am realizing the further down the R road we go, the more things we need to discuss and shore up.

If you read what happened last Friday in clearmind's thread, my main concern is having confidence that she can effectively hold up boundaries and defend our M. You are right, I can�t control what others do but damn it�I can�t be around her every minute of every day to monitor her interactions with others and know if she is actually defending her personal and our marital boundaries.

This was not the first time this person has sent her a personal email either. I give my W credit as she did let me know right away that he emailed her but I was disappointed that her FIRST impulse wasn�t to fire an email back to him denouncing his personal email.

I however, immediately picked up the phone and called his a** and told him what was up. I wasn�t any too happy during the conversation and he got the message. W and I did talk about how to handle situations like this in the future and I think she will respond differently. If not, we have a real problem.

We BOTH hold responsibility to defend our boundaries and our M. Not asking her to do anything I am not willing to do as well.

Worse part about the incident is that it brought back all those terrible feelings of dday as this means and methods of emails were exactly how her A started.

Great job on calling the guy.

There will be many triggers...things still happen in my own situation.

I had the best results when i viewed things like this as an opportunity to help my FWH fix the weak spots in his boundaries.

It is a great feeling to work as a team to protect our marriage. It really brings us closer together.

Well, of all my shortcomings the one thing I don't lack is courage.

Thank you for the words of wisdom. They were helpful to both of us. I know what you mean about these experiences bringing you closer together. We have discussed this aspect as well.

No such thing as a bad moment to get closer. you know?

Well after reading about the horror that is 'planAprincess' current reality....back to revisit EP's, re-tool our MB focus and attention to detail... or... just...well...I won't say it...


Damn it.


This is my biggest fear.

Don't be fearful if you follow this program. Be fearful if you cut corners. If you cut corners on EP's a repeat affair is likely. If you cut corners on the basic concepts, resentment and unhappiness is likely.

See that is just it. I hope we aren't cutting corners. Maybe we are and we are just missing something...Thinking strongly about looking closely at the on-line program.

EP's in place and UA time in numbers has been there the last 3 weeks. We have had some wonderful times. However, I am having a hard time enthusiastically meeting her EN's. I admit that.


Last night she initiated SF and I just kind of freaked for some reason. (well I do know why..bad memories jumped into my brain) I stopped it, rolled over and went to sleep. She didn't say anything about it and neither did I.

20-

Buck up, my brother.

Our wives have created a new normal for us, you either adjust to it (and thrive) or you dont (and live a life of general malaise). I get your pain, I do. I get not fully able to trust. This is the same woman who sat across from you so many times at dinner with your kids there not long after doing things with another guy that makes your stomach turn. She did it with no sign of anxiety, stress, or GUILT. Mine too.

I like to think my wife was stuck in this lousy thing and had no way to get out. Leaving him may have raised flags about their relationship (he was our friend) and then she may have been out an affair partner and her husband. Plus many other addiction like factors.

Stay focused, work the program, let her love you and continue to prove that what she did was nothing more than a major F-up.

I always rise (eh-hem) to the occasion when she starts the SF session. I could be mired in a bit of a depression, but I feel when we are engaged in it, I take away another piece of what he once claimed. Every session makes her more mine. By denying her the opportunity to give you this or better, share this with you, you put the affair in the forefront and that's bad.

It aint going away no matter what you do so its probably best to adjust to the new normal she made for you two.

I agree with everything you are saying. I think last night freaked both of us out as that is the first time I have reacted this way..ever.

Staying focused on the program is what we are doing but man it is discouraging when you read other's stories about breach of NC.

No 3rd chance for my W. THAT you can write in stone.

We are the luckiest type of BH in that we have wives apparently fully on-board with meeting our needs and about as remorseful as a person can get who commited a major affront to another. We are not chasing down our wives like some other poor guys are faced with.

Im trying to take this opportunity to make ME better.

I excercise more, Ive taken on some entreprenuerial opportunities I may not have earlier, Ive spent more time with the kids, and tried to be a better husband to her. Ive read a bunch of books in the last year and a half.

More than anything else, I made darn sure I will not be the victim ever again. I have protected myself from an affair. She has lived up to her end of the deal as well. I like to think this feeling of security did not exist before and thus made what she did possible. I think being secure in one's self is something women find attractive so after the initial couple of months of whimpering and sobbing, I decided "I AM THE MAN", and if she wants me, SHE'LL have to show me why. Not me crying over the 'whyfors?' and 'whatifs?'.

For too long I got used, it ended on 5/8/11. I gave her the choice to come along on the ride and laid out ground rules. She took the co-pilot seat gladly.

You and I need to play a mind-game. To win you must push aside what your wife did as irrelevant to your future. You lose if you cant shake the bad images and memories. Some say it can take 2 years to really feel like a winner.

Why did you take off the 'put 10 people in a room' that your mother shared with you off your signature? I really liked it. Have mentioned that quote a couple of times in conversation.

I think you and I have some things in common.

Having a truly remorseful W is something I do not take for granted. Many BS�s on this board would be eternally grateful to be where we are at. And, I appreciate it.

As you said, making ME better is the best thing that has come out of this experience. I have posted to others on this board about self-improvement and the satisfaction that results. I truly am a better, stronger person. The guy I always wanted to be.

Pushing away what she did as irrelevant to our future may happen in time. And, I hope that to be the case. Right now we are doing pretty good overall. She is GREAT when I am great and down when I am down. Very reactive to my state of mind.

300+ people came to my father�s funeral in 1991. I was 21 at the time and was just blown away by the number of people whom I had never met in my life which shared their individual stories with me of how my father impacted their lives in a positive way. He was truly an anomaly and a 1 in a million.

That is what I aspire to be. Someone others can look up to and respect. That is what I want my children to see. That is what I want my wife to see. Someone they can look up to and respect but also be gentle and loving.

That is what I am achieving. This experience brought me to my knees but I feel STRONG now. But, also cautious at the same time.

You know what they say. Fool me once, shame on you..Fool me twice, shame on ME, Fool me a third time�well there won�t be another chance to Fool me again. I got fooled 2 times already...you do the math.

I am giving her the chance to prove herself worthy of our little family and she is taking the R bull by the horns.

"New Normal" excellent choice of words!
20-
MSS is so right, since we can't un-ring that bell, having the MB plan allows us concentrate through the noise in our racing minds.
You are spot on double checking if you have cut any corners.
I tried to skip a step, having to go back now and correct it.
Day by day , step by "every" step!

20yearhistory, how are you doing?

Do you ever listen to the radio show?

Things are going pretty well. Thank you for asking.

The UA time is making all the difference now. This and forcing myself to stay in the present without bringing up the past. We are getting 1 date night a week. Clearmind continues to be amazing and taking my down moments with patience and love.

They are becoming fewer, further apart and less intense when they hit. I really think we are healing. Now that I am feeling safer with her, my guard is starting to come down a bit. I am falling back in love with her.

Need to start listening to the radio program.

Thank you for helping us focus on the now and kicking me in the tail about UA time.

I get it.

Great!! And you do know that ONE date night will not do the trick, right? Can you get that up to 3 or 4?

By the way, I so loved your very articulate post yesterday on the "I told you so" thread. You have such depth along with the ability to articulate your points. I really appreciated that post. As you can tell, that whole situation has really torn me up because I worry about that woman.

I am beginning to believe Dr. Harley has voodoo dolls for those who implement his SAA plan and take his recommendation for UA time seriously.

After 4 weeks of really concentrating on UA time, all of a sudden, I am much more enthusiastic about meeting her needs and spending time together. We are falling back in love. There so much less �general unrest� in our relationship. Not na�ve enough to think there won�t be many down times around the corner�but things are really starting to go well for us.

Is there a spell on me? haha..

Dang it! I thought we were doing GREAT with 1 date night a week. Leave it to you to push us!

Voodoo Dolls. I love it! Yeah, that's the central part of the recipe. It's important that it's "quality time", but even more important that the time is simply there. Sometimes we're just hanging out barefoot together reading on our computers & playing footsies. Sometimes we're engaged in deep conversation. Sometimes we're reading Facebook posts aloud to each other or eating out at a restaurant or watching a movie or taking long walks or taking short walks or working on sprinklers together or cooking breakfast together or her applying dressing to my wounds after a bike crash or holding hands while driving cross-country or snuggling together watching our boy play soccer or....
...
...
you get the point!

Any BS's reading this thread...no guarantees but there is hope for full R after an A. We are still a work in progress but our R is still moving forward.

I asked her to expose the A to the children this weekend as they had never been told. It had been eating me up and I was very proud of how she handled it.

Our 7yr old son, didn't know how to react..think it scared him. He is very mature for his age and didn't want to talk about it. We stressed our intentions for the future in mommy and daddy working things out to keep our family whole.

Our 5yr old daughter seemed to have difficulty processing things.

In the end, it was evidence again that my FWW is here to play ball for real. I also hope it will be an example to the children that even under great adversity..vows are vows. Promises count and people can overcome great trials when we work together.

We had a wonderful weekend with lots of UA time. Got a beautiful hotel room Saturday night..great dinner and comedy club coupled with good conversation.

Still working hard to get our UA time in week in week out but difficult task for sure. However, we know it isn't an option to slack off on UA.

Good job, you two!!

What Dr. H needs is voodoo dolls for those who DON'T get in their UA time!!!!

LOL

We are trying to come to an agreement about one-on-one meetings with people of the opposite sex as it applies to my profession and EP's.

Is it acceptable to have business meetings with opposite sex professionals to discuss business matters if I do not discuss personal matters with them? FWW and I are discussing the pros/cons and how to make both of us comfortable with these scenarios while affair-proofing our M.

My profession is as a Business Development Director. The easy answer would just be no. However, my career has been built on this path.

My understanding from Dr Harley is that there should be no friends of the opposite sex however POJA would apply to this scenario.

Thinking about email the radio show to get his input.

20year, my position is Regional Sales Manager for a soft drink company so I am in a similar position. My career is calling on mostly men and almost 95% of my coworkers are male. My H also has female coworkers and employees. The EPs that we have in place are:

1. no personal conversations

2. no lunches or dinners alone

3. no traveling with coworkers

Dr Harley advocates against personal relationships with the members of the opposite sex so when I am conducting business I steer clear of any personal discussion. And the same with male coworkers. Dr Harley has mentioned this same thing in his own career. He keeps it to business discussion only and does not discuss his personal life.

Even so, it always comes back to what your spouse comfortable.

p.s. Lunch only becomes touchy when I am out doing a store tour with a sales manager. I typically will invite a store manager to join us for lunch. If that can't happen, then we have a working lunch at Taco Bell to recap the mornings findings. Otherwise, I don't lunch one on one with male coworkers or clients.

Thanks for the input. Like you, it is very much a challenge to not have business meetings in our professions with those of the opposite sex.

We continue to learn the nuances of making our marriage affair-proof. It is an on-going process. We are good dealing with the bigger issues but as time goes on we are realizing there are many other things that continue to come up which we need to address.

The POJA is an amazing tool that applies to most every situation. Good stuff. What a difference this has made for us!

It is amazing�I look back now and realize how much I didn�t know about how to create a happy marriage.

I was counting in my head last night how many friends I have since high school and college who�s marriages have had adultery enter into them�I was up to 5 including my own.

Truly stunning�and sad.

20yearhistory, glad you are back posting, friend!

For those interested, Dr. Harley addressed the topic of one-on-one business meetings with people of the opposite sex on the Friday May 3rd radio program.

In summary, he has no problem at all with it. His emphasis was keeping the discussions purely business and not let it cross personal boundaries.

He said that anyone who feels vulnerable with putting themselves in this situation they need to be honest with themselves and find different ways to accomplish your goals.

If the spouse is uncomfortable with the person you are meeting with then this should be POJA�d.

Here's your and clearmind's question.

Radio Clip About one on one Business meetings with OS

Thank you, BH. I was wanting to listen to the segment again.

Overall, things are going very well the last few months. We continue to work the program and it is working. Slow, but the positive aspect is that we are making progress. UA time has been the hardest aspect to accomplish.

Couple big bumps with MIL. I never thought she supported our M. After D-day, I had asked several times for their help with FWW and always felt they turned their back on me. Never thought MIL and FIL took a stand against the A. You know, their daughters happiness at any cost. Several things about the MB program she really disagrees with. Not asking for her approval but more her support. After 2 years of resentment building up I made a call to MIL very angry about a lot of things. I didn't handle myself well at all. My AO hurt her feelings. I have apologized but it has hurt our relationship. Guess the buildup of the last couple of years finally bubbled over. Hurt on both sides.The experience is bringing clearmind and I closer together.

20years, are you familiar with Dr Harley's position on family members who are toxic to your marriage? I know Markos and Prisca have dealt with this. The general principle is that all family members are subject to the POJA. And if one of you can't enthusiastically agree to associate with a certain member, then that member is avoided.

Period.

Best decision I ever made. And after about two years, they finally decided it was worth it to apologize, and our relationship was restored, and is progressing on a much more adult level.

Dr. Harley has some great things to say about this in his HNHN For Parents book.

I guess the question is, what is toxic?

My SIL fell into this category and we do not spend time with her or BIL. We have a long history of being close to MIL, FIL. They are very close to our children. The last thing clearmind and I want is to not have a relationship with them.

See, the A took place in clearmind's hometown, where MIL, FIL live. This is a massive trigger for me to go to their home. We POJA to not go there to their home for now as it is an extremely unpleasant time for me when we do go. I have been sacrificing since we started R going there. MIL and FIL think this is a ridiculous decision. They don't understand. Also, they think that having complete transparency such as our phones and emails is an invasion of privacy.

Now, this doesn't really bother me too much because I don't need their approval for anything. I do want their support which they say they are giving us. What really made my blood boil, resulting in a heated discussion a week ago was that they said they didn't believe we mutually agreed to not go to their home right now....it was all on me. This is complicated because as we have started R, I have felt (maybe incorrectly) that they think the A was my fault. I was made out to be a very bad person and I don't think they trust me. At one point in the conversation, I said "don't you know that she F'ed him there???...You are not welcome in our home (our home that is)". edit: so with that, they thought we wouldn't be seeing them at all and I would be withholding the grandchildren from them.

I did cross the line and have apologized several times for my AO. The way I handled the conversation was uncalled for. I do have resentment built up though. Part of me believes they are in somewhat of denial of what their little girl did.

After D-day, when I kicked her out, they gave her $$$, helped her but never one time denounced the A and took a stand. They never one time asked how I was doing when their daughter betrayed their SIL and grandchildren. When I asked for their help to get her to stop the A and be honest..didn't do a thing. Seemed like they just swept it under the rug..while I was on the floor bleeding..turned their back on me.

I can't imagine if either of my children had or were having an A...not sitting them down and setting them straight. Yeah, still upset about that.

My AO didn't help things but now they are scared that I am going to keep their grandchildren from them...which I never said one time. They are good people. I do love them very much. We have a long history and want to work things out with them so we can have a mutual understanding.

Could you explain more? What was the situation? How was it resolved? What made you get to your breaking point?

That is for YOU to decide. If your relationship with them causes lovebank withdrawals, it would be toxic to your marriage.


Your wife should be the one to resolve this issue. She needs to protect you from things like this since they are her parents. My suggestion would be that she write them a letter explaining the harm she did to her marriage and that they do further harm with their unsupportive position.

They are very disrespectful to beat you up for taking affair proofing measures in your marriage. That needs to be addressed and resolved, IMO. If they don't agree to stop it, I would consider cutting them out until they do agree to stop it. You can't have people in your lives that cause this kind of conflict in your marriage.

She has had several conversations with MIL but really to no avail. She keeps saying how hurt she is from our conversation.

I do see your point. Right now it seems like everything we do to resolve these issues is blowing up in our face. Kind of a no-win situation at this time. Maybe things need to cool off a bit.

I am tired of apologizing to them. This is very difficult for everyone. Clearmind does not want to lose her parents. I don't either. Especially for her and my children.

Your suggestion about writing a letter is a good one. Thank you. I will bring that up tonight.

..uggghhh...Affairs are such a bad idea...unbelievable the fallout. It's like a nuclear explosion. People are affected for miles away and for years to come.

Things finally got better for us when I quit trying to prove, quit trying to apologize, quit trying to convince. I just laid it out: you've been disrespectful to my wife, and we won't be seeing you any more until you apologize and it never happens again. They tried to have a few conversations where they tried to prove they didn't need to apologize; I cut those off quickly. You can't win any such debates. The only way we could get the message across was when they were sitting there alone without us (and their grandchildren) with no way forward other than to apologize.

I realize I've wasted an enormous amount of my life trying to debate my boundaries with violators instead of simply quietly enforcing them.

The situation was my parents wanted to interfere and "advise" in most of our life decisions. They expressed dismay at just about everything we decided to do. They used disrespectful comments to try to pressure us into doing what they felt we should do in life.

They were extraordinarily disrespectful to Prisca.

There was no "breaking point"; just a gradual realization that I needed to do just what Dr. Harley advised: tell them they weren't going to see us or our children any more until they apologized, and tell them that it could never happen again. Then we had two years of mostly peace before they finally decided to apologize.

Today we don't have conversations about what they think we should do in life.

Bravo good post!

Dr. Harley makes a very good point that if you have children, your parents/parents-in-law are typically very motivated to maintain the relationship. Usually, they want to see their grandchildren. It may take them awhile to come around, but if seeing their grandchildren means having to eliminate certain behaviors, there is a very good chance they will do it.

There is a case near the end of Love Busters about trouble with parents-in-law. In that case, they were pressuring the couple to attend church with them. They completely cut the couple off when the couple started attending other churches. After two years, they finally came around and decided it was important to have a relationship with their daughter and son-in-law after all. It's interesting to me that it took about two years for my parents to come around, too. I'm not sure if two years is a magic number, or if it's just coincidence. I was convinced at one point that I wasn't going to see my parents again until their funerals.

I strongly encourage you to QUIT apologizing to them. You've already apologized. It's on them to accept it.

I had several angry outbursts at my dad. Nasty and disgusting. By all rights, I owe him an apology, although I've never extended one; we've just moved on and don't open that piece of the past any more.

Quit apologizing. If they are engaging in behavior that causes you misery in the present, stop tolerating it. Let your wife know you won't see them until they stop it.

Leave the past aside and explain to us what they are doing TODAY that is causing a problem. Are they still getting onto you about what you did to fight for your marriage? Then I would say you're not going to put up with it.

You may not be able to persuade them of anything, but you are able to mark and enforce your boundary. You don't deserve to be abused by in-laws or anybody for saving your marriage.

In addition to "advising," I should mention that they were constantly trying to "advise" me about what a problem Prisca was. They claimed she was driving a wedge between me and them (hello, Pot ... meet Kettle!), they were constantly trying to get me apart to have a private conversation with me about her, they were writing letters telling me I needed to do something.

At one point I wanted to ask if they thought I should take Prisca over my knee and give her a good whooping! I don't know what they wanted me to do, and it wasn't any of their business, and the problem was not Prisca - the problem was my extraordinarily disrespectful parents, who made such asses of themselves for awhile that first Prisca and then I didn't want to be around them!

All of that crap has vanished, and they can see clearly that they are not going to have private conversations with me that don't include my wife.

It doesn't sound like you are going to get that kind of support. I would not discuss Marriage Builders with them any more at all. You've decided how to live your life, and they shouldn't be a part of the decision.

Thanks, Markos. I appreciate you helping validate my thoughts. I agree. I am seeing that you can't win in these types of debates.

Clearmind has spoken to MIL several times and things seem to just get worse. My MIL was very disrespectful to me after my AO to her. It is difficult for clearmind to take this path as she thinks everything is all her fault. I have assured her that I don't think that. Everyone, including MIL, FIL have to be accountable for their own decisions in where we are today.

You have given me a lot to think about and to discuss the best way to handle this. Seems like clearmind and I have been the only one apologizing to the family--MIL, SIL, BIL, FIL for some of the decisions that have negatively effected us since this whole nightmare started...no one.

I for one am done apologizing.

Good point.

Now this is encouraging to here. My goal completely.

BTW, I mentioned Love Busters had a good chapter on in-laws; I remembered that His Needs, Her Needs For Parents also has a good chapter on it.

It's not surprising that your MIL would be disrespectful to you after you had an angry outburst at her. That said, you don't have to stand for disrespect over mistakes of the past for the rest of your life.

Note: if angry outbursts are a regular concern, I'm assuming you know this is very serious and you need to do something about it! Angry outbursts were a perfectly normal way for me to relate to my dad - three years ago. They are not today.

I wouldn't pressure clearmind to say much more to her parents at all. If you don't want to go to where they live, then don't; if you don't want her to see her parents without you, let her know. If you are fine inviting the two of them to come see you, then do so. If they have a problem with that, they don't come. There doesn't need to be any explaining or justifying. It's as simple as that.

MIL: "Will you come see us July 4th?"
You or clearmind: "Sorry, we can't come out there. Would you like to come see us here? Would you like to meet in X City?"
MIL: "You should start coming to see us again. Don't you think it's time to get over this? You are really being foolish. After all, the affair was as much your fault as hers."
You or clearmind: "I'm not going to discuss this. Let us know if you want to come see us." <HANG UP>

The next time they talk, if they bring up the past or try to pressure you, you tell them you don't want them telling you what to do any more and don't want to see them until they agree to quit telling you what to do. And if it comes to that I would not go out of my way to enable them to have a relationship with the grandkids that doesn't include me.

This is what Dr. Harley told me:

Thank you for all your input. It has been marinating with me the last few days. This issue must be addressed right away. My mindset is slowing changing to not think I have to justify myself, our R and our decisions with in-laws.


We plan to draft a letter together this evening to share with them what we need from them.

Over the last week and a half this issue has interfered with our UA time. Clearmind (and understandably so) has been preoccupied in her mind about her folks. Honestly, this is my main concern right now. She told me that she needs more from me right now through this phase of our R (with her parents). I plan to learn more about this tonight and focus on her more.

She feels like she is losing her parents. I am encouraging her that this is NOT her fault. She is carrying the weight around on her shoulders that she caused all of this. My encouragement has been that her parents have also made decisions contributing to the state of our relationship with them as well.

I hope there comes a day when we can put all this ugliness behind us. Many more hurtles to jump though.

And she may be. This is a very painful thing she is doing to protect you and your marriage. Comfort her.

Hopefully, her parents will do the right thing.

I think they will.

20year, you posted this on RNR's thread


How exactly do you go about doing that? I ask because I don't get any reassurance from Kiss and I would feel so much better if I did

Thanks

At the end of every day she says something to the effect "I want you to know that I do not have a SSL, no secret email accounts, have had no encounters with anyone of the opposite sex, no secret phone, no inappropriate behavior, no one making LB deposits except you"

She has a running calendar that she documents our UA time every day. She also has a graph calculating UA time for each week.

She tells me when she leaves the house in the morning, when she gets to work, when she goes to lunch, when she gets back to her desk, when she leaves to go home etc. Multiple times during the day she reassures me by telling me she is thinking about me and loves me

I have access to her work computer, phone, email, everything. And in turn, she does mine as well.

She has developed a great deal of empathy and I love her for it. All these things make LB deposits. We use the POJA and PORH for every portion of our lives.

I appreciate you sharing that. Kiss is nowhere near that informative with me about where he goes, who he talks to, etc during his day at work.

I understand.

Clearmind and I didn't get to this level of communication and empathy by chance or by it just happening on its own! No little Honesty Faries landed on her shoulder and magically made either of us do these things.


POJA, PORH

XXYH,
Was there a point in the early stages of your process when CM made it clear to you that she was "signing up" to a recovery plan (obviously, most likely MB's)?

Unfortunately NG, it was upon my discovery that I was in a FR.

Only when I found out that she never had stopped lying to me after d-day (9mo�s earlier) and then subsequently, I made it eminently clear that we were completely done and our M was over did she commit to a plan for R. Certainly not text book MB progression after discovery.

However, we are doing very well now.

This is one of the reasons I stick around on the forum�.to help others avoid a FR and give others hope that even under the most difficult of situations, R is possible with 2 willing people.

Certainly not text book MB progression after discovery.

I agree with that statement.

I made it eminently clear that we were completely done and our M was over did she **not** commit to a plan for R...we are doing very well now.

This is exactly what I suspected, my friend. (I believe the edit is what you meant to say. If not, please advise.)

R is possible with 2 willing people.

**EDIT**

Only when I found out that she never had stopped lying to me after d-day (9mo�s earlier) and then subsequently, I made it eminently clear that we were completely done and our M was over did she DID NOT commit to a plan for R. Certainly not text book MB progression after discovery.


Good catch, NG. Those 2 words I accidentally omitted change everything! Corrected now.

Actually the more I recall what happened...I discovered we were in a FR and I told her how hurt I was and thought she would never stop lying to me and we were done.

I didn't threaten to D if she didn�t enter a recovery program. I just said we were going to D.

Period.

In turn, she came clean on everything and promised to enter a R program if I would agree to consider taking her back.

At first, I said no way. I did not agree to consider taking her back. I Stuck to my guns that we were through. Her LB balance with me went totally in the negative. Any feelings I had for her completely vanished when I found out she never stopped lying to me.

After a couple more weeks of thinking and talking to her, she actually seemed serious this time and she came off different.

At that point, I decided to lay out the conditions for my participation and we made a deal to enter R together. Then, we both fully embraced MB together and are on our way to a full R.

That is why I can usually smell a WS on this forum that is not serious a mile away.

Net/net: Since you did not, in fact, obtain the divorce on which you supposedly had decided, it acted as a de facto threat. The salient fact that is to be harvested here is that your case turned on her internalization of the concept that without her verifiable commitment to engage in the MB program, she was facing the termination of her marital union. Does that seem fair?

My case hinged on the same "My way or the highway!" ultimatum. It would be irresponsible to posit a hypothesis on only two such cases, however. It might be inferred from GO's delightful note epilogue that his BW wielded a similar weapon, but there is some question as to when/how she laid down the new law. More research is needed.

OK, I think I've seen enough!

I move we find someone to sneak into NG's house and steal his thesaurus.

Is there a second?

Bwa-haa-haa-haa! My thesaurus cannot be isolated from my perusal. It's on my phone, my tablet, my laptop---it's EVERYWHERE!

(Actually, it sits entirely above my shoulders, which would make removing it...messy!

But while you're here, ME, I would put to you the same question:

Sometime, probably early in the post-discovery phase, did Mrs E accept the necessity of following your chosen plan?

I'm one of the lucky ones, as BSs go. She defogged on DDay. It took me a couple of days to find MB, but once I did, she went out and bought SAA and HNHN on her own. She took the lead in reading those books together with me. She also started posting to the forum first. So, our chosen plan was really a joint decision.

Q: Did Mrs E accept the necessity of following your chosen plan?

A: It took me a couple of days to find MB, but once I did, she went out and bought SAA and HNHN on her own.

So, in effect, "Yes, she bought into the plan almost immediately." Fair?

Three for three!

Why don't you write Dr. Harley and you guys can pool data?

Out of how many hundreds? It should be noted that this immediate repentance of a WW is not typical. Most Betrayed Husbands must spend quite some time in Plan A winning their WWs back.

That is certainly NOT typical, though. It is ATYPICAL when it comes to a WW. You can expect a WW to be foggy and unremorseful. And the marriage can still recover. Not so when it comes to a WH!!

You have an angry oburst and expect your target to apologize?

To have a disagreement is one thing.

To no longer participate/here/discuss something is one's right. After giving someone a verbal blasting then to demand an apology is something else.

Is mule backwards what it is.

Huh?

This makes no sense.

Guys, please take your debate to another thread.
Thank you.

Sorry, 20year, I just saw this. My apologies.

the "debate" has been moved to its own thread per original poster's request

Would you say you're in love with your wife? If not, maybe increasing UA time would help get you away from "affair think." The mechanics can all be in place, but if there isn't enough time spent on the EN's, then there won't be emotional fulfillment. Without emotional connectedness, you may be prone to dwell.

Well, 16 years ago today, I promised to love and cherish Clearmind for life.


I intend to keep that promise.

Congrats, XXYH!

Just celebrated 16 yrs ourselves

Congratulations!

Is this your question?
Radio Clip of 12-10-13 Show
Segment #2

We just passed the 2 year threshold and I am amazed how Dr. Harley's program is paying off. Resentment is fading and our M is very strong. Overall, I am pleased to say our R is going quite well!

Still working through some things that come up from time to time but we are learning how to solve our problems in a positive way.

However, we still have the looming issue with her folks. From the beginning, they never took a stand against their daughters choices and never spoke out against it. Soon after D-day, I reached out to them to ask for their assistance but help never came.

About a year ago Clearmind and I POJA'd to not go to the town in which the A occurred. HUGE trigger for me. Unfortunately, that is where her folks live.

Needless to say, they are not understanding with our decision and are taking it quite personal. We have tried to explain the situation to them and have tried to brainstorm solutions in which we can reunite our family. They will not engage in the conversation.

About 8 months ago (after numerous interactions with both clearmind and myself) a situation occurred in which some statements were made by them that were extremely upsetting to me.

On the heals of 3 years of disappointment from my side about them, I reacted with an angry outburst on them. It was really the last straw in my book. I was dead wrong in how I handled it. Since that time, I have apologized several times and have tried my best to mend the fence.

I have always been hurt by the fact that they never took a stand against their daughters behavior. There has never been an acknowledgement as to the pain an suffering myself and our children have endured.

This has caused a great deal of resentment from me to them.

They can't wrap their heads around us not coming up to their home and they refuse to come to our home. Additionally, I have never felt from the beginning that clearmind really explained how they hurt me and the reasons why I feel the way I do about them.

They seem to come off as they are making it all about them not respecting what clearmind and I are going through.

So, we are stuck. We are going to ask for Dr. Harley's advice.

They "refuse" to come to your home?

Yep. That is a fact.

They said that they never felt welcome and that they don't think I ever liked them.

I never felt that way and always thought that we had a good relationship.

Have you written them a letter telling them about these issues? I believe this is what Markos did. He sent them a letter that was written with Prisca outlining the issues. He told them that unless they apologized for their disrespectful behavior and agreed to never let it happen again, they would have no contact with them whatsoever.

They eventually did apologize and I think their relationship has been restored.

I will be interested to see what Dr Harley says in your case, but I am pretty sure he encouraged Markos and Prisca to take this path.

In your case, I would write them a letter together telling them how hurt you were by their lack of support of your marriage during the affair. Ask for an apology. You could also insist that they respect your reasons for not visiting their town and tell them you would welcome them in your home if this was resolved.

That is how I would handle this.

This is why I think it would be a good idea to send them a letter together. If it was written together, you could convey your feelings about this.

To answer your first question, no. I never explained to them my perspective. And they never asked for it. Part of me just wanted to let it go. We decided about a year ago that we were not in a strong enough place in our R to tackle the issues with her folks so things basically got put on the back burner.

Now we are stronger and the issue is coming to a head.

I really like your approach. We have discussed this. However, we understand that this path is riddled with risks. We want our family reunited not alienated. We also clearly understand Dr. Harley's position on integrated marriages in which relationships outside the M typically don't work. Such is the case here.

There are more complex issues too. My Sister in Law was an enabler during the A and she has been totally cut from our lives. This has complicated things as well.


About 4 months ago, I called my MIL and apologized again. She unloaded on me for 40 minutes sharing her hurt feeling over the years that various things that have happened. I patiently listed understanding her perspective....never ONE time did she EVER ask about me or inquire to my experience.

Who does this??? I mean really...They certainly don't come off as caring about me 1%. I am sure they do deep inside but I am not a mind reader and can only judge things by our interactions and discussions.

This is the approach that Dr Harley and Joyce took with his dad and that Markos and Prisca took with his parents. The goal is to reunite the family and it was very effective because it removed the issues that caused the breach.

I don't understand this comment, though: "We also clearly understand Dr. Harley's position on integrated marriages in which relationships outside the M typically don't work."

Can you clarify what you mean?

Right. What I meant was that my interpretation is that mine and clearmind's relationships outside of the M must work FOR the M...not against it.

For example. Clearmind did not like a long-time friend of mine. She was very uncomfortable with this individual for her own reasons. I have since cut ties with this person.

In the case of her folks, the looming question is...Is it acceptable for her to have a relationship with her folks in which I am not involved at all? One in which they hold a lot of hostility and resentment against her husband?

I gotcha! You are absolutely right. Any relationships outside of the marriage would be subject to the POJA. For example, neither of you should have any relationships about which the other person is not enthusiastic. That is why it is so important to present a united front to her parents and insist that they change their behavior to make you both happy.

If her parents are mistreating you, and they are, then that needs to addressed by you both. If it is not resolved, they should be cut out of your lives. In this case, her parents are downright HARMFUL to your marriage. The marriage should be protected even if it is at the expense of the relationship with her parents.

I think the letter needs to come from clearmind. You can write it together, but it needs to be signed by her. She needs to be the one who takes a stand against their treatment of you.

Mel is correct that this is what Markos and I did when his parents were completely disrespectful of me. Dr. Harley recommends it, and had to stand up to his own father once who disrespected Joyce. It took about 2 years for Markos' parents to come around, but they did end up apologizing and we now have a lovely relationship.

thank you, Prisca!

I agree and understand how things occurred.

The difference here is that clearmind thinks this entire situation is 100% her fault. In your case, Marcos was coming from a different perspective, as the BS.

Should that matter? Probably not. Clearmind sees that her folks have made their own decisions that have contributed to where we are at today but has a hard time swallowing that because she feels so responsible...

She has said many times that 'this is all my fault. we would not have this problem if it wasn't for me'.

I understand her thinking...

No, it is not. It will continue to eat away at you, and you will eventually feel resentment for clearmind and not just her parents. It will drive a wedge between the two of you.

We tried that approach, too. I thought I needed to support Markos having a relationship with his parents that didn't involve me, but it was detrimental to our marriage. You can't sacrifice on this.

Agreed. But at the same time, difficult to do. You know? Her father is having heart problems too and my MIL is very worried about him as well. She is very upset that her daughter "can't" come up and thinks there should be "exceptions".

20year, if your in-laws are still presently hostile to you, then definitely I would suggest you stay away from them until they apologize and agree not to act that way any more. As described above, it would be great for clearmind to write a letter letting them know she won't tolerate them being disrespectful to her husband any more and that none of you guys will see them or talk to them again until they apologize and agree to not treat you this way any more.

I am curious - why are they so hostile toward you? What is their basic complaint? Do they feel that you have been neglectful of their daughter or abusive toward her? If so, I would think that this complaint should be addressed through the work you've been doing in Marriage Builders. Do they feel you are disrespectful toward them? If so, definitely stop that! To some extent I think their complaints need to be addressed - it would be helpful to have a good understanding here of exactly what is upsetting them.

Is he concerned enough that he's willing to stop being disrespectful to you?

Why do you have to be right? I know you are.

This is hard.

I would not keep apologizing for the past or even bringing up the past. The only hope for restoring the relationship is to agree together to be respectful in the future and to not punish each other for the mistakes of the past. They should not be apologized for endlessly.

You would like them and welcome them now if they were respectful to you, right?

Their disrespect for me was not over my EA.

There really is not much difference here that I can see. You have a set of parents that disrespect their child's spouse. This must stop. She needs to tell them that they must treat her husband differently, or they cannot have a relationship with either of you.

I'm glad you are writing Dr. Harley directly. If it were just that the parents supported the daughter's affair I'm not really sure what Dr. Harley would recommend as far as a continuing relationship with them. But it sounds to me like the main problem is they keep fighting with you. (And vice versa, up till recently. You've seen now though what a bad idea it is to have an angry outburst toward them. Don't keep apologizing for it, but take the lesson to heart: don't be demanding, disrespectful, or angry toward them.)

I think I would offer to meet them at some neutral location. Just send an invite: "Hey, how about we meet in Paluxy? At the such and such restaurant? And then go see ..." You can't demand they come to see you. And they can't demand you come to see them. They might reject other solutions, but it wouldn't hurt to offer options.

Thank you for chiming in. I was hoping you would!

Their complaints are that over the years they never thought I liked them and feel they were never welcome in our home. I adamantly disagree with that but have to respect their feelings.

Yes, 1 time I was very disrespectful to them. (the phone call I mentioned 8mo's ago) which I have subsequently apologized for numerous times. Besides that, I can't think of any other times I was disrespectful.

Something happened like 8 years ago in which their power went out and wanted to come to our home one day. There was a BIG misunderstanding which when explained, they just won't buy.

Honestly, Marcos, I always thought that they liked me. Through the years they had many nice things to say about how great of a father to their grandchildren I was and a loving husband to their daughter.

And YES, their complaints have been addressed. I mentioned the phone call 4 months ago in which she unloaded on me...I have apologized for things in the past and vowed to have a different future. They refuse to let the past go and KEEP bringing things up.

I am not reliving the past again with them in reference to their complaints about me. Period.
I have done it numerous times to the best of my abilities and refuse to 'go there' again.

I just don't get it...

Great insight. Thank you.

Yes, we HAVE offered to meet them quite a few times. Denied every. Single. Time.

It's like they are not going to budge until we go up there to talk. That ain't gonna happen right now and they refuse to accept it.

very frustrating.

Maybe you could help out Clearmind on her thread??

Absolutely!!

100%. That is what I want!

This is really the heart of the issue is 'how' to deal with them.

Bring up the past and explain why I have been hurt or just move toward the future with different expectations on both sides.

We tried the forward thinking approach and they don't want to have anything to do with that. They are choosing to continually pound on the issues of the past.

That has a really interesting resemblance to a classic disrespectful conflict, in fact the basic one Marriage Builders addresses. "You don't love me." "Sure I do; I support us / take care of the kids / etc., etc., etc." The real question that has to be addressed in that scenario is what kind of care the person wants. And the real question that has to be addressed here is what behavior do they want from you for a friendship? What would show them you like them?

Keep in mind at all times that this can never be fixed by debating with them to prove you actually like them or prove you didn't intend anything by the things they were offended by in the past.

I think I would consider sticking with that:

"How about we meet next Saturday in Paluxy?"

"Why won't you come to our town?"

"I'm sorry, we aren't willing to come back there any more, but we really would like to see you. How about we meet next Thursday night for barbecue in Hattiesburg?"

"You never really did like us. I'll bet your glad to have this excuse to get rid of us. And right now while your father-in-law was sick you won't even come to see us."

"Mom/MIL, we'd love to see you again soon. We love you and miss you. Talk to you later."

Next week:

"Hey, how about we all take your grandkids to putt-putt in Pascagoula this weekend?"

Repeat...

This really has my wheels spinning. Can you elaborate your thought process on this?

I'll try - you mentioned how they were upset several years ago about some incident that couldn't be helped, and how they didn't accept your explanation for it. My observation is that discussions of that type are usually unproductive - they can't read your mind and know if you intended to slight them or not, and no amount of logical reasoning can change their feelings if they feel bad about it.

In Love Bank terms, you made a withdrawal, and you'd like them to understand why you took the actions you took (or didn't take, etc.) because you feel it would then be less of a withdrawal. The truth is that usually doesn't work - the action would still be a withdrawal.

Of course you aren't trying to get your in-laws to fall in love with you! But the way we'd address a misunderstanding like that in marriage is the same way to address it here: providing your reasoning and justifications won't help anything, because what's really going on is their feelings about you are negative, and their feelings are going to control their beliefs, rather than the other way around. So we'd address it (in marriage, or any relationship that you want to retain) by not getting into motivations or circumstances but instead setting up the situation such that you will protect them from it ever happening again.

You want to do positive things to build the relationship and eliminate negative things that tear down the relationship, and avoid debates about motivations because those debates rarely exonerate you, instead they turn out to be a negative event that tears down the relationship further. At the same time you want to protect yourself from disrespect or other abuse by declining to participate in any conversations or events with them when they are disrespectful to you.

Does that shed any light on what I'm saying?

I'd like to bolster the point Markos is attempting to make here with what exactly opened my eyes to the futility of trying to get into they "why" of things;



http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3402_disrespect.html


From there, it becomes good practice to just follow the POJA.


Why ask why? Try POJA dry.

Yes, it does. We are taking your suggestions and we will see what happens.

Talking about the issues with them has not worked and it is difficult to see how it would moving forward. This side of the fence would prefer to put the past in the past and have a mutual agreement to treat each other with respect in the future. The other part of me wants them to see the errors in their ways, admit fault and apologize. I know I have.

An apology from them would go a long way with me but I suspect that will not happen. To date, there has been no indication from them that they think they have done anything wrong.

Especially when I have come forward to them, owned up to my mistakes, asked for forgiveness.

Granted, I have not shared with them my feelings and how they have hurt me. Most likely they will never know the extent that they have hurt me. Maybe it doesn't matter. I don't know...the most important thing my marriage though.

I do not like this resentment in my heart towards them.

Moving forward, this is a big step for me. Not easy to move forward feeling like you have been wronged and to not even granted and acknowledgement or an apology.

From the beginning, I have felt that I was the bad guy in their eyes throughout this ordeal. Being the victim, it is not easy feeling this way and difficult to be very motivated to even want a relationship with them. They have criticized me extensively. In turn, they have not to their daughter. At all. Crazy. This is a major source of my mental dilemma with them.


Hoping for the best though. Thank you for your help. Your perspective has been very helpful!

20 year as a BS spouse I completely understand your position. It is almost impossible to believe that someone you treasure could complete such a betrayal. The pain is real. You no longer trust foundations you once could firmly stand on.

It is okay to have those feelings. It is okay to allow yourself some room to heal also. I did ask my husband to leave. However, he refused ( in a nice way) and said he wanted to fight for the marriage. He would do anything needed. Because of my children and the many good years we had together I decided to listen to the advise here on MB. I was honest with my husband. I let him know that I would try my best but could make no guarantees I could get past the hurt and betrayal of trust.

We are now 17 months DD. I can honestly say that I am glad I listened. I am thankful for all the advise on working on triggers, LB's and most importantly spending UA time together. Because he stayed we were able to spend time together I have some new memories. ... some are just wonderful!. Can I say I trust him? No! The motto moving forward is trust but verify. But I do feel we have some foundations using the POJA and Radical Honesty.

No one can say what each persons tolerance is. The decision is yours. For me, I will not settle for a marriage based on fantasy or illusion. I want real honesty, commitment and love. I have found some valuable tools here to help me with that goal. And I actually feel more confident that ever before that I will be fine come what may because I have tried my best.

Well, sorry to say but no good progress with IL's.

For them to move forward, they have to relive the past. Since this doesn't work for us we are at an impasse.

They also keep poking at me as a major culprit in their hurt and saying I won't acknowledge it. This is very offensive for me as I HAVE done these things.

Bummer.

I would have to be an absolute broken record with people like that.

"You have been hurtful to us from the beginning of your marriage..."

"I'm sorry; I'm not going to talk about that."

"Just a minute, I wasn't finished, now I want you to admit that you are the source of the problem, because you've always wanted us to..."

"We'd love to see you again soon, but I don't want to talk about this stuff from the past. Talk to you later; bye." (click)

Thanks, Marcos. I agree 100%. Clearmind however is having trouble with this.

It is evident that we are not going to convince them of anything by discussing the past. Trying hard not to resent them. This is proving to be difficult.

What does she want to do?

She told me earlier today that she wants to stick to this plan of inviting them to things (such as Easter) and not discuss the past. If they say yes, we say we want to just enjoy the day and if they press to discuss the past, we respectfully decline.

Maybe eventually they will miss us and their grandchildren enough to move toward the future.

They have really dug their heals into this and her father is quite stubborn. FIL's Brother and his SIL have not spoken to their son/grandchildren in over 10 years. When I have asked the IL's why..they say that no one knows for sure. They just are holding a 'grudge' for unknown reasons.