It is frustrating when the BS seems to have to do a lot of the heavy lifting in recovery.

Do you think part of your frustration is the lack of UA time? And you being sick and low energy?

Have you had your T levels checked recently?

I have to give her credit. She is doing much of the heavy lifting at this stage. Don't think I would be continuing if she wasn't. Since about the first of June, she has really taken our R by the horns.

Yes, I do think lacking UA time, low energy and not feeling well is feeding into this.

I just feel tired most of the time. A trip to Doc is probably a good call. I tried AD's last year and they wigged me out. Didn't like them at all.

I think I need a blood work up to see whats up with me. Maybe my lethargic state it is just as much physical as it is mental right now.

Off for some good family UA time! It is going to be a great day. Think we might go out for some Japanese food.

We had to work together on FWH's EPs for about a year until they became habitual.

They weren't necessarily intentional breaks; more that they were his habit to speak and behave in certain ways with woman that I now find completely unacceptable. So even though he agreed to "no terms of endearment to anyone except immediate family members," he once called a woman "my flower" in an email. AND it was to a work colleague.

I called him out on it, and he tightened it up. Then a couple of other little dumb things like going a little over the top with a complement or getting too physically close to another woman. Oh, there were more than a couple of times, I almost threw in the towel wondering if he was ever going to "get it."

It just took some time and monitoring, and now he's better about building and continuing the new habits that are his EPs. They've been part of my lifestyle for many years, but he was always very familiar and chummy with women. No longer.

And yet, it's the most common situation, particularly when the betrayed is male.

Something that really helps us get through the tougher times is to have "something to look forward to". We try to always make sure we're planning some fun family outing, vacation, time away, whatever. Right now, we're planning a trip for a Shakespeare Festival with the family and a tour of Europe starting with ten days in Amsterdam, followed by backpacking for the next week across some tourist spot (just wife & I on that one, no kids). By and large, these aren't "budget-busting" kinds of activities; we plan them VERY cheap, taking advantage of every loophole to keep expenses down.

Part of the learning process is learning what kinds of things your spouse wants or does not want communicated. For instance, we agreed to share everything as well, but my wife is really not interested in my weird habit of timing how long it takes for me to digest things by evaluating the content of my stools, and reporting the results So there's a line you don't want to cross, you know? But you have to tell your spouse in the first place to know where that line is, or what kinds of things he/she does not want to know about.

Jennifer Harley Chalmers taught us a few techniques that have helped us HUGELY with our messaging.

"I love it when" statements are for when you want to reinforce a behavior that deposits Love Units. For instance, "I love it when you discuss your conversations during the day with me that night," or "I love it when I get home from long day at work and there's a meal waiting for me," or "I love it when you wake me up in the middle of the night for ((explicit description deleted))."

"I'd love it if" statements are for when you want to gently remind your spouse not to Love Bust. "I'd love it if you would close the shower curtain after you shower," "I'd love it if you'd text me when you're stressed out so that I can help," or "I'd love it if we could use some lube next time we do that."

"I'd like to brainstorm" statements are for when you know that if you used one of the above statements it would be a demand. "I'd like to brainstorm about how to get the lawn cleaned up this week," "I'd like to brainstorm about ways to help us keep in closer touch with one another throughout the day," or "I'd like to brainstorm ways to avoid chafing in uncomfortable areas when we do that thing we did in the middle of the night last night."

This post really hit home with me. Thank you DNM. I read it several times and it is sinking in.

You are so right re; things to look forward to. Our attitudes seem to be more positive when we are planning an event or occasion. We both love to travel, so do our kids, and we do stay quite active. This is good perspective to consider continuing to plan fun events both with and without the children.

I am going to start implementing the �I love it when�, �I�d love it if�, and �I�d like to brainstorm� statements starting today. This advice can really impact my own delivery during conversation. Actually, I am going to print this out as a reminder every day.

This really is a learning process for both of us. MB�s is a new way of thinking to most of us old dogs with bad habits. However, I want nothing more than to have a long-term, loving marriage with my beautiful wife (and she is quite stunning indeed!!). We both want the same thing.

Today is a good day. After a rough Friday and Saturday, things have leveled off and the energy between us is good. She even found a baby sitter which can help us out from time to time. This has been a real challenge for us as both of our parents live out of town and logistics for getting some UA out of the house is not easy.

Fortunately, it is someone that our children knew at pre-school which is a real plus. If she works out, we will definitely start asking for her help more.


UA is the key right??

Yes, both myself and W are working together to make both of our behaviors more instinctual and habitual - in a good way.

20years together is a long time to develop both good and bad habits. I think she does �get it� for sure. As you said though, they weren�t intentional breaks, more she didn�t think about certain things so in turn, we have discussed them and now we move forward.

I am excellent at being firm in my expectations and boundaries of her but working hard at becoming softer in my delivery.

What I will NOT allow is for myself to be taken advantage of and lied to ever again. What I will allow is for my inner self to become more respectful in my delivery without AO�s and DJ. Easier said than done.

Yep, those statements really transform a conversation. "I'd like to brainstorm about..." is sometimes a tough one if you don't keep the conversation focused right. You want to pick the things you are enthusiastic about, and ignore the ones you aren't! If you take the typical brainstorming approach of discussing the shortfalls of certain approaches, it makes the conversation very negative. Best to say "I'm not enthusiastic about that option by itself" and move on. Most of our best brainstorms are hybrids of several ideas, and end up something like "If we do this in this way, and that in this other way, then I'm enthusiastic about some other thing."

Be careful of time-dependent enthusiastic agreement. For instance, I was not enthusiastic about disposing of our old fridge. I gave provisional enthusiastic agreement: I agreed we'd try out this new fridge for three months, and if we didn't like it we could put the old one back. Well, I **hate** the new fridge. It's already cost us $10,000 in a flood due to a busted icemaker. But my wife is no longer enthusastic about moving the old fridge back in from the garage, and since the default position is to "do nothing", we're stuck with a fridge I hate with a broken icemaker until we come to an enthusiastic agreement about replacing it.

Lesson learned: never make an agreement based upon a future promise. One of you is going to lose in that kind of agreement.

But I do keep complaining. "I really dislike this refrigerator", "I'm unhappy this heap is still in the house," "I'd like to dispose of this refrigerator", etc. Gotta make sure she knows how I feel, as this has put me on the losing end of a POJA. However, resentment due to passivity is less strong than active resentment due to something you've done! So if I remind my spouse how unhappy this refrigerator has made me, that's much better than if I drag the refrigerator out to the front yard unilaterally and take my chainsaw to it. My resentment over the refrigerator will be gone the day we get a new one; her resentment over me taking a chainsaw to the fridge, forcing us to use the old one, would last a long, long time...


Yeah, I'd just print out:
"I love it when..."
"I would love it if..."
"I'd like to brainstorm..."



Yeah. Unless you have the time together, you'll lack the empathy to think of each other's feelings before your own.

So, things are generally better this week so far. My energy levels have been down a lot over the last 2-3 weeks and I am taking action to help in this area.

After an A, how do you know if you are 'in-love' with your spouse? Emotionally, I am drained. Reality seems blurry. Not sure what I feel some times. My logical mind knows what it thinks, which keeps me focused on our goals.

So much damage has been done but we are working the MB program to a greater goal. We have come a long, long way for sure in the last 8 months and the future does seem bright.

W knows I am not in love with her which I know is a heartbreaking reality for her. I do love her very much. However it seems more like a caring love. We have much history together with many great memories. But that in love feeling has yet to return.

I keep telling myself that Feelings follow Actions. I want to fall back in love with her but I am also honest with myself admitting I am still guarding my heart. Some days, it seems like I am just waiting to find a breach in our EP�s and for our M to be over. Not a fun way to live. I know I can only control myself.

We need more UA time. The FR was a back breaker....

You are doing great!

I think you need to let up on yourself a little. It seems to me that you are committed to your M. The MB program doesn't say that a breach in EP's should be answered by ending the M. There are more steps, specifically plan B, to go through first. You don't need to box yourself in; solve the problems when and if they happen. Like someone told me, live in the present. There is lots of logic to your M; so there is much there for you to save. Your feelings will return as your FWW makes the LB deposits that are needed to do that. You just need to patch the leaks in your LB, and you have been doing that.

Thanks for the encouragement.

That is exactly what I am counting on re; feelings follow actions.

I tend to have very high expectations of myself generally in life. It has always been that way. Easing up and becoming more laid back is something I am striving for and actually making some progress.

Thank you for taking time out of your day to provide some words of wisdom.

I hear what you are saying! I am definitely a work in progress. Dr. Harley has helped me identify many things in my personality which I have now changed for the better.

The future looks bright today. Hope I still need shades tomorrow too!

How you doing 20yrH?

Depends on the day. Lows are not as low which is a good sign. Dealing with triggers the best I can. I have made a lot of progress avoiding DJ's and AO's when I am triggered.

Very much a learning process for both of us leaning how to live this new life. However, I give W much credit for the effort she is putting into our R.

I want to thank you for helping us out. Seems like most other vets on this board have abandoned both of us. I know we could use the help. There are other new posters that come here at more of a 'critical' stage as it were (discovery and exposure stage). But, I really think clearmind and I are going to be a success story in part from your help.

I get A LOT of views on my thread but not a lot of posts from other vets and want to thank those trying to help us out. We really appreciate it.

Those vets reading this please keep in mind that others like us in R can use your great advice as well. We are 8mos into R and this is critical point in our R. We want to maintain momentum and not stall out or go backwards.

Again, advice from those who have walked in our shoes is much appreciated.

Thanks.

UGH...you are right, 20, that this IS a critical stage of recovery. I'm not a long term vet, but I will try to add more to help. I remember those days - being that it hasn't been THAT long ago - and will pay better attention.

I'm glad you spoke up and asked for help. That's good practice for asking for what you need in your marriage!

ETA: Being that I haven't been on your thread a great deal, it would help for me to understand if there are any up to date issues you specifically need assistance in navigating.

20years. You know the program and I can see how well you understand it by your own posts to others. You have made some great posts!

Ask yourself what you can do to keep it moving along. What are your weak spots and how can you strengthen them?

From what I understand the online program is designed to point you in the right direction and keep you there. You seem to be hesitant to go that route for whatever reason.

I think you guys are doing great. Said that...when I was at a point where I was feeling stuck, there was something specific that was bothering me but I wasn't sure if it was just me being silly. I moved ahead nicely once I decided to address that one thing.

Posters make connections here.
Some more, less, a lot, none.
No way is better then another.
I don't go around looking to hold hands.

You don't post with questions or ask for advice So I and most other's are going to leave you alone.

However with me and others there will always be the thread that got started and people want an update.

Writing to you has made me remember PSUBiker. That was a story and a half. It's starting the need for me to hear an update from him.

Too many people come and go. Some used MB and are in a better place. Some left before their time.

So if you are doing what you want, using MB, then don't worry about who's posting.

Now if you wanted to hear from anyone just start a new thread, example, tittled: Melodylane come to 20yearhistory's thread.
Or names, or calling all vets, or list the names of those that you want to her from.

No pressing need then don't worry who's not posting and work MB.

A couple of points about this kind of agreement.. It is perfectly ok to make such an agreement with the POJA and is, in fact, desirable. ALL decisions made with the POJA are conditional because you really don't know how each party will react to the decision until it is in place. In other words, they are based on a future promise.

That is how you ensure win/win.

For example, Joyce agreed to move to Minnesota with Dr Harley only on the condition that if she was not happy, they would move back to CA. Once they moved to Minnesota, the default position did not become Minn, but it always remained CA.

If the default position had changed to Minnesota, then Joyce would be stuck in a place that made her unhappy, which would obviously not help her marriage.

If that decision makes either party unhappy, the original agreement is OFF and you would go back to the STATUS QUO [the orginal position] until another decision is made.

In the case of the refrigerator, the default position is the OLD refrigerator. The default position does not become the NEW refrigerator since the original agreement is negated by your unhappiness, DMNM.

That being said, the default position is NEVER the desired position. The desired position is to find a solution that makes you both happy. Dr Harley said recently that if you have to resort to the default position, then don't make it longer than 3 days. Continue to negotiate until you find a good solution.

Well, Twenny...

The fact that you have any responders is a signal that there is hope. It can also be a sign that you are doing things so well that nobody really has anything to add.

That being said, it is nice to have peer support.


The other thing to consider is that you are engaged in one of the programs. There are some FANTASTIC posters here, but very few people who would take it upon themselves to contradict any advice given by trained MB professionals. So, some people may hold back and let you work the program under the direction of your coach rather than risk giving contradictory advice.

20-

The long-time, incredibly helpful posters who own the MB principles enough to offer the finest of its advice reduce their appearances on others' threads for 3 reasons as I see it:

1. the original thread's author continues to ignore advice and decides they have a better plan than what this website suggests by doing every BUT what the vets say to do

2. the initial "hot period" ends when a distraught newly BS or WS has moved in to the next stage where recovery is close (or even the big D is the only next move).

3. the thread's author has done all the right things and demonstrated the ability to fly on his own and only needs a periodic morale boost

Unfortunately there is a new person posting his or her disaster story everyday that requires the attention of the most qualified advisors. With their great power comes great responsiblity and they step up everytime.

You know who helps you get thru a bad patch by now. I tend to seek them out for that kick in the butt when needed. The day to day living we must face HAS to be done by us. The key is when you feel you made a bad play on something OR did something worthy of praise, then come here to talk about it.

Hi 20year, How many hours of UA time are you getting each week and what are your activities? What percentage is spent out of the home and away from kids?