SD
Defiantly brainstorming our RA. Thank you,I'm still learning how.
I am willing to do do any RA that we can do together but that is where we are stuck right now.The "together" part. MEE's favorite RA she does alone.I don't like the RA because you have to do it alone.
I have nothing but bad associations with this RA and don't want to continue.

Getting MEE to discuss what she is reading has been a big help. Tells me she needs time to digest what she has read but wants to go over with me what she has gleaned. Says she's not ready to post yet though.
UW
I think we should try it together at first so MEE can get up to speed with where I am and we can implement all of it. Thank you for your incite on this.
MEE and I don't have many hobbies we share. IB was the monster that started us down this slippery slope.
The two of us have been doing our own thing for so long that we are having to rediscover who the other is.
We have been sitting on the banks of a couple of rivers fishing while trying to think of other RA's we can do together.

A lot of times we miss the point of UA time. The point is to build POSITIVE, PAVLOVIAN associations.

Remember Pavlov's dogs? He trained them to salivate at the sound of a bell. UA time is supposed to elicit a similar response to the presence of your mate: you see/hear/smell/touch them, and experience overwhelming attraction.

A lot of times, I see posters here deep-dive into what is and is not UA time. Ultimately, the question you should ask yourself is "Is what we are doing together building positive associations to the presence of one another?"

We like to think romantic love is magical. It's not. It's chemistry, it's trainable, and it's measurable. You can train the response through positive associations (and a lack of negative associations), and you can measure the strength of the response using a FMRI machine and a sequence of images.

The other important bit is that UA time does not always have to be equal enjoyment for both partners. Say you go out to dinner together, and both order something new you've never tried before. One of you really likes what you ordered, the other is kind of indifferent. Is your UA time invalidated because one of you had a less-good-time than the other? Of course not! You're still spending time together doing something you enjoy, even though that level of enjoyment is not equal.

So if you want reading time to be UA time, change around your approach. For instance, my wife likes to have her feet rubbed. While she's reading, I'll often meet that need for her. From my perspective, I'm betting my enjoyment is a little less than hers -- I'm giving the foot rub, not getting anything in return at that moment -- but it doesn't make the UA time not UA time.

Similarly, we will go to the gym together. Now, she's not hovering over me, spotting me while I lift weights. Nor are we right next to one another the whole time. But we see one another, touch hands, pass each other on the indoor track, etc. The fact we are there and together during an activity which releases a tremendous amount of endorphins is enough to make it powerful UA time even though you are not right there on top of each other the whole time. In fact, taking up fitness activities together is one of Dr. Harley's most-recommended approaches to building Love Bank balances quickly! We've talked about it, and our enjoyment levels differ. I really get a rush out of seeing my wife sweaty & working out. She's glad for the fitness results, but the whole sweaty-man-thing seems to be a bit less of a turn-on.

I guess what I'm saying here is "be flexible". There will be activities in which you engage that are a bit more one-sided than others. It's possible to have enthusiastic agreement even when one of you is a little less enthusiastic than the other!

DNM
Thank you for reminding me what the UA is for. I am too much of a rookie to quote per line from your excellent post but my concern is

1.What if an RA is associated W/ start of A and has other bad associations.
2. Already know that RA is something I dislike.

Enjoying our time together is what I am seeking. We have to be together and that is where we are stuck.
This RA is done alone so no time together.

I started doing this RA again with MEE after a few years of not wanting to. The very year I started doing the RA W/ MEE again she started her PA. In my traumatized mind the two events are connected.
We have POJA'd the time MEE will spend on it and have EG'd not to allow it to cut into our UA.
I am fine helping MEE with all the prep for RA and considering what you have pointed out to me getting a R feeling about me from W for helping her get preps done is a good thing!
Did not look at it that way... Thanks for that!

As far as me doing the RA.
Don't enjoy it.
If I am going to have to do something by myself then I want it to be something enjoyable to me.
I did it anyway last year and had hoped to find another RA this year.

Being alone together is how we spent way to much time in our broken marriage!

So there are a couple of different approaches to negative associations with an activity or location.

The heart of Dr. Harley's approach to triggers boils down to a catch-phrase he often uses on the radio: "it's easier to change behavior than to change emotions". This pithy quip summarizes a lot of the approach. For instance, you typically avoid angry outbursts altogether if you and your spouse never engage in demands or disrespectful judgments. Thus there's little need for "anger management", as you learn to channel frustration into respectful requests and thoughtful responses.

The first approach to triggers is "avoidance". It's the more common approach Dr. Harley advocates. That is, if it's reasonable, you avoid the activity or location that causes triggers. This is the heart of his "move to another state" suggestion after an affair. You avoid the locations that remind you of the affair by moving, therefore you trigger much less.

The second approach is "saturation". This is only used if the trigger is nearly impossible to avoid, such as "every time I drive" or "whenever we go out to eat". Saturation can be very effective. You basically build so many positive associations with an activity or place that it can no longer cause triggers. It's very difficult to do the first few times.

The approach Dr. Harley advocates for recreational activity is clearly described in "His Needs, Her Needs". To sum up, you each write a very large list (I would aim for at least fifty, not just a few!) of recreational activities you enjoy OR THINK YOU MIGHT ENJOY, along with a ranking of how much you enjoy them or think you might enjoy them. You then compare lists, and create a shared list with rankings. Pick the top five where the combined score is the highest. Those are your five Recreational Activities which the two of you engage in together.

Now, you can still have recreational activities separately! There are 168 hours in a week. 56 hours are sleep. About the same for work/commute. 15 hours a week for UA time, 15 hours a week for family time, and about six hours a week eating meals together (or so). This usually leaves about 20 hours a week to do with WHATEVER YOU WANT that your spouse enthusiastically agrees to. Me, I mostly use that time to watch Discovery Channel and go bicycling. What you do is up to you.

Hope that helps!

But I think he said that the RA that his wife engages in alone is a trigger to the A. So that might be one she would need to avoid.

Also, I think a WS should POJA RA's, especially those that are triggers or may make their BS feel unsafe somehow. For instance, if your wife was a shopper, and used to go shopping alone and you knew she called her AP while out shopping, then that is not something you would want her to be able to do in her 'spare time' I would think. (Also that would be a poor boundary, and possible break of EP's, maybe that is a bad example...)

Do you mind me asking what RA HAS to be done alone? I can't think of one off the top of my head, that could not be done with a partner somehow.

BTW, "Recreational Companionship" is usually the initialism we use in MarriageBuilders, not "RA" (Recreational Activity). RA is also used as the initialism for "Revenge Affair".

The Policy of Joint Agreement is "never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse". "anything" includes any recreational activity.

There is another approach you can use for RC. It's called "Provisional Enthusiastic Agreement". For instance, my family had never joined a fitness club before. I was genuinely enthusiastic, but my wife a bit less so. She agreed to be provisionally enthusiastic, and we signed up for a limited time. Over time, we both grew to be fully enthusiastic about it, and we continue.

Similarly, I used to HATE shopping. In the wake of my wife's affair, and seeing that shopping was very high on her list of RC activities, I decided to try approaching it from a different perspective. I would not be "shopping"; I'd be talking with my wife while we walked together, and Conversation is very high on my list of ENs. That approach works, and although I know that it's meeting much more of my wife's EN than mine, I don't *dislike* it at all anymore.

Anyway, anything you or your wife do without your partner's enthusiastic agreement is Independent Behavior. Nail that down; IB + Dishonesty == Affair...

DNM
Great help, thank you again.

We have agreed W will limit time so as not to encroach on our UA.
I used (RA) Recreational activity instead of (RC) companionship because it is the activity W likes that I dislike. Sorry for the confusion.

What I really wanted to do is POJA a new RC but as long as W does not mind doing it ALONE I can live with it.I like the list idea I had forgotten that part.

RC is low on my EN list but I do understand it is a great way to make LB$.

UW
It is the associations in my mind with the start of FWW's PA and me rejoining her in this RC.

Dates and events still get my mind rattled. My thoughts are... "We were doing this RC while you had an A!"

IB being our big LB this RC was about the ONLY RC we were doing together.

Time might erase this.

I shouldn't even comment on this because I don't know that we are doing it the 'right' way, you know I am just trudging along in recovery too. But we have had some IB issues too. H is a big hunter, and although I like to go along to watch him work the dogs I do not carry a gun. I have my own hobby that is primarily mine. However, in the last two years I have gotten more involved in his hunting, asking if I can get my own gun and learn how to shoot. He will always have his family (men only) hunting weekends, but as far as bird hunting I would like to start doing that together. He is ELATED to have me even express the desire to learn how to shoot and hunt birds and join him in this hobby. And that in turn makes me excited to do it with him. Meanwhile, last year I invited him into my hobby and he actually got pretty involved in it. This year I am doing it more, but he comes with whenever possible as a part of our RC time together. In any case, hunting is still HIS hobby and something he is more passionate about, and the other hobby is mine, but we have really started to become involved in the other persons hobby as much as possible.

For me it is exciting to spend time with him doing something he is passionate about. His passion for his hobbies is one of the reasons I fell in love with him! And, he looks so good in that camo... Hrm but I digress. It isn't necessarily the hunting that excites me, as much as being with him while he is doing something he absolutely LOVES. I guess that goes back to the association, he will learn to associate ME with that euphoric feeling while he is doing that which he loves to do.

So, definitely look for new and exciting ways you can spend RC time. There is an RC form on this website somewhere, I really need to learn how to link things. It has almost EVERYTHING on it, and it is an easy way to get ideas that you might not always think about. But I do encourage you to embrace each others current passions and incorporate yourselves into them as much as possible. It really does make huge LB deposits when you pair the two.

@unwritten: Ask and you shall receive.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4505_rei.html

UW
You two seem to be working it out very well. We have been doing other RC that W likes.
I was a huge outdoors man when we were first married.
We Hunted,camped, hiked, fished, avid shooters, white water rafted loved everything outdoors.
Can't do those to the extent I used to after my injury. Agreed to try some again to a lesser extent and intensity. Pain kind of took the fun out of most of them for me though.
W still loves everything to do with the outdoors, especially deer hunting.
Setting in the woods in the cold with artificial body parts is not fun.I had stopped going but trying to reconnect with her I decided to give it a try again.
This is the RC I have been trying to POJA. If W wants to do it alone that is fine by me as long as she DOES IT ALONE and our UA time does not suffer.
One of our ideas is to get out of our club and she hunt family property.Not as much of an area to hunt but no OS hunting buddies either.
DNM
What I was trying to do was provisionally enthusiastically agree to try RC again. After a year, Still don't enjoy it and still have the association hang ups.Not going to be something we do for UA or RC.
Pre-MB I did not think twice about W hanging out at the camp talking with OS hunting buddies.W's EP won't allow for that so we are seeking a compromise we can both EA to. My problem is I know how much she loves it and don't want to cause resentment to build in her or me.
MC ain't for the faint of heart is it?

Nope, it isn't!

A woman who likes to deer hunt, that's awesome!

Well in my own hobby, which is done predominantly by men, I have had to make many concessions to make sure we are following EP's and maintaining good boundaries. I used to do overnight trips to do this hobby, now I would/could not do this without H present of course. I, like you are asking your wife to do, do it ALONE instead of with male counterparts, and sometimes I have to rearrange things to accomplish that (that is if I can't do it with H). Yes, life does change when you become aware of what a protected M is (by means of the school of hard knocks). One could see it as sacrificing, but I see it as protecting the most important person in my life, and my M, which is more important to me than any OS that I have done hobbies with.

I actually have a very reclusive side and like to be alone, so that also makes it fine for me:)

From your post I see that you are both very outdoorsy, so that is a GREAT thing. H and I are also, although he does more of the hunting, and I do other unnamed outdoor hobbies, since we both share a passion for the outdoors we highly respect and support each others things and try and find ways to overlap them, etc. There are so many couples that have very opposite interests, so I always feel fortunate about the fact that our root interest which is the outdoors is in line.

Is there a way you can enjoy deer hunting again without the pain of sitting outside in the cold? Could you look into some kind of heated deer stand? Is there a different kind of hunting that would be more conducive to your physical limitations that you could try together?

Not to the same level as you, but H also has been more physically challanged over the last couple of years. We used to do backpack camping for instance, hauling our 50-70lb backpacks, 3 kids and 2 dogs several miles into the north woods to camp. We also did canoe trips into very remote areas. But because he has had a lot of back problems and other physical issues, this year we did a state park trip where we could load a canoe right into a chain of lakes from the car (no carrying the packs, no portages), and also some cart in sites. Not as remote and you know I miss the more extreme challenges, but it has allowed us to compromise, still do the things we love together, but accommodate H's physical barriers.

I think you seem to have a GREAT foundation to work with to find some RC that will be exciting to both of you.

Another angle in which to approach this is, if there's an activity one of us likes but the other does not, perhaps it's something that can be done with one of our kids. Dr. H. mentions that in that capacity, it can become something that meets FC as well. There's a hobby that H likes that I don't, but my sons do - so they do it together. Same for me, with my daughter. (Well, when she's home from college.)

We've never had extended family around but obviously, it could be a family member other than a child as well - as long your UA time together is a priority and it's POJA'd.

Great advice SunnyD. Unfortunately my daughter likes to shoe shop, blaaagccchhhhh.

UW
Great advice thank you. I was struck with a thought last night after I posted here. What I am posting about now compared to why I started this thread...

THANK YOU MB!!!

I just need to put on my big boy (camouflage) pants and enjoy what W and I do have now.
Congrats on your anniversary! We just spent the past few days celebrating ours also! Considering the darkness where all of us here have come from every anniversary is special.

Sunny
Hope you had a great time with your DD!
Somehow Daniel Boone and Annie Oakley gave birth to two girl'ie cheerleaders!

I know right, how does that happen! H and I have money on our little guy who is 5, we think he will be the outdoorsman to carry on our traditions.

At least my DD can get around in the shoe store with a compass, and if they lose power in the mall she can build a fire from scratch to stay warm.

Thank you for the anniversary wishes! Not so long ago, in April/May when I started my thread, I talked about how much I despised our wedding rings because they reminded me of the joke that I considered our marriage (as well as other trigger type things which I shall leave in the dark where they belong). I wanted H to buy us new rings, yet I was resentful for having to spend the money on new rings just because he tainted them. All in all, our rings held nothing but resentment and bitterness, as far as I was concerned. I would have been glad to accidently lose them.

Seems like AGES ago, even though it has only been a few short months. Now I look at our rings and regard them with honor. I think of our wedding and it brings happy tears to my eyes. That day I did not know what commitment was, and FOR SURE H, did not know what commitment was. We were just going through the motions, oblivious to what being MARRIED even meant. Yep, we F'd it up pretty good. But here we are, better than ever, with new knowledge and a new understanding that the vast majority of people are never blessed to have. Our rings represent to me now true love, true commitment, true honor.

And anniversaries are good, when you feel this way.

Wowser. Never thought I'd say any of that. What happened to that little devil of resentment? I don't even remember what he looks like most days.

Still a work in progress, but definitely progress

Sorry for the TJ.

HA HA! Wanna know what's funny? My H loves to shoe shop! He likes picking out shoes that he wants me to wear. It's quite fun.

Sorry for the T/J WLE, but it had to be noted. lol

Life's funny sometimes!

And yes, had a great time with my DD last weekend. She was a cheerleader for 10 years! She competed as well as did school cheer. Cheered in college her first 2 years before giving it up for sorority life. She was on one of the best teams in the country when she competed - was even interviewed on ESPN since she was the team captain for the #1 team (after day 1 of competition) in her division at "Worlds" which is the best of the best in the country.

We had a lot of fun - lots of mother/daughter time - during those years. The sad part was, I didn't get in UA time with my hubby those years. SO, DD and I ended up very close while hubby and I drifted apart somewhat. NOT good!

I am in awe of how far my FWW has come in our MR. Gave her testimony before the entire church this weekend and my jaw hit the floor.She pulled no punches and exposed her self to a whole new set of people. Granted they are all pulling for her and us but still took a lot of moxie to have that many people see you at your worst.
Her remorse is so deep and genuine that I feel as though she will stop at nothing to R our M.
We corrected most of the miss steps we took early in R and have gotten back to true MB R plan.
I will never be able to have an ordinary marriage again nor would I want one.
I also never thought that I would be able to look at her again as I do now 14 months after D-Day.
More in love with her now than ever before.
We have POJA'd our RC and have moved on to other areas where we sill have to improve. We are about to go through 5 steps for romantic love. Can't wait to dive into that one with her.