What fog is your husband in? Is he having an affair? I didn't get that from your posts. And you've read When To Call It Quits, right?

Have you confirmed that he is not having an affair?

I am now so completely confused I don't even know what to say. Earlier you said this:


And now you say you didn't say that after I took the time to make several posts addressing that point. I guess I am not smart enough to figure that one out so I will leave this to smarter minds.

I don't know how long the longest Plan B with Recovery has been, but I'd file. There is much life out there to enjoy. If after years of basically nothing from your WH, I'd file and be done. Are you legally separated?

I think Queenie gets the prize on this. The Beginning of Queenie's Adventure

and four years later Update on life for Queenie

Everybody recovery in plan B, whether personally of the marriage.

If you are using the Coaching advice then I think you should do what Steve recommends

Okay....so. Folks have given me good hard questions to answer..on my first thread and now this thread...BUT there is one question NO one has asked including SH.

Did anyone notice that I did not do plan A right before plan b????

I wish I could post a new question. Maybe I will tomorrow.

HOW do you do plan b without plan A being done right before you go into plan B?

Did you go in to Plan B with the timing under direction of SH?


What you have to know is this; Plan B is not to "save your marriage." Ok?

For YOU, Plan B is to protect you from the continuing damaging behavior of your WS.

For your WS, Plan B is to model what divorce will look like if they do not choose recovery.

For your Marriage, Plan B is an attempt to let the affair die a natural death, no longer propped up and supplemented by the needs being met by the BS.


I'll tell you again; because you are under the supervision of SH, and in a Plan B some distance from your (F)WH, you are in the BEST possible position for this to lead to a recovery, because the ball is totally in your (F)WH's court.

Unless this contradicts SH, I would say keep your hiney where it is, and if your (F)WH is serious, he will find a new job and bring his butt to you and the kids.

You didn't tell him that you would meet his needs in the future if he met your conditions? That is all Plan A is. You have already done Plan A.

That's a very common scenario, and not an exception. Nobody does a perfect Plan A. As MelodyLane says, all that is necessary is that you communicate a willingness to meet emotional needs.

No matter how badly Plan A was done, Dr. Harley says it is crucial for a wife to get into Plan B in a timely fashion. Don't compromise on this.

And this is likely why SH has advised you to extend occasional olive branches to your H while you are in Plan B; to demonstrate your willingness to meet his needs and recover the marriage.

Thanks to all for your input. It helped me a lot.

He has called twice..we are in negotiations via the phone. He has read this thread. Hi dear

Probably that is all that should be said for now...will get back to the board later when there is more direction one way or the other. Your advice and hard questions have been beneficial and will be so in the future.

I wrote MB radio:I know they must get a lot of request so I thought I would post here for the boards thoughts......

Dr Harley and Joyce,

Love your show. Listen online when I can. Have done coaching sporadically with Steve.

In the past I worked hard on plan a, plan b but now I'm not sure I want his new lifestyle. I am still in love with the guy I thought he was before affair exposure.

Here is my situation:
Husband had an affair that came to light Aug 2008 along with a porn addiction. Both were a huge surprise to me.

Recovery accelerated after he completed a porn addiction program. I moved out while he went through withdraw of OW and porn recovery program.

After the porn recovery, he became an amazing person, better than the guy he was before the A. However, he never fully committed to POJA and UA. It seemed okay because we spent so much time together, were in love again, and didn't have much to fight over. After 3 months he quit the new positive behaviors learned from porn addiction program and MB. He thought he was cured because he was no longer doing porn or in an affair.

Part of the great recovery was that I joined him in his athletic pursuits even though it was his choice of activities not mine. Prior to affair exposure our individual exercise time commitment was above average. During recovery his exercise time increased (reason being was that exercise was a positive outlet prescribed by porn recovery program.) His spiritual pursuit declined the year leading up to exposure of A and did not resume during recovery.

When he asked me back I mentioned that our family had a certain level of spiritual pursuit and he appeared to want to devote even more time and energy to exercise and competition and less on spiritual pursuits. I told him I did not want to come back if he was going to take our family in a different direction. He promised he would read the bible with me everyday.( I would have been happy with 2 or 3 times per week) I knew that "everyday" would never happen but thought he was on a good trajectory in general. I moved back in just before school started but before the new behaviors were well established. As I mentioned, after 3 months he gradually quit recovery mode. Any mention of us needing to continue to work on recovery led to defensiveness, then arguing, and eventually AO on my part when he would flip everything back at me; out of his court into mine. (a behavior of addicts that the porn program helped with in the past). His not keeping his spiritual promise and the fact I felt he was gradually leading our family into a different lifestyle eroded my trust in his honesty. I felt he had out right lied to me.

The Ultimatum: After years of struggling I decided it was time to call it quits. First I let him know I was tired of struggling and told him something had to change. I asked if he would be willing to do either the porn recovery program or MB again. The porn program believed that recovery was NOT no longer doing porn but a RECOVERY of the way you think about women, the way you connect with others, the way you treat others (no longer flipping things back or protective lying) . MB basics had never truly been "installed" in our marriage. After much contemplation he agreed but not enthusiastically. He was super nice for 4 or 5 days, I was receptive because I was so happy he was willing to work on our marriage.....but NO FOLLOW THROUGH OCCURRED....again.

I left the state with the teen children as soon as school let out. I thought by summers end he would make a decision of divorce or recovery. Now it is October. I have to decide by Nov 1st what to do because of a job offer for me back home and a deadline to give notice to the house rental here, plus out teen children need to know for sport and academic commitments. Moving out of state has made some things clearer to me. I love him, he loves him, I consider his feelings, he considers his feelings. I want an answer, I read MB, I listen to MB radio, I go to the forums, I pray, ...he throws himself into his routine of work and exercise to cope with the loss of his family. He feels I have made huge withdraws by embarrassing him. He had to explain to many people where his very community active family had disappeared to. He doesn't really see what he did to his wife or kids. He thinks the affair ended long ago and that this is all my problem. He is tired of my request for him to "jump more hoops" and he is tired of my AO . I go crazy as he spins the conversation by trying to flip it all back on me. My standard operating procedure is intimacy, conflict, AO. I don't seem to have been created with a withdraw mode. I have a patient mode of hope (been doing this since 2008) but when my giver is done it is done and my taker leads to AO.

Oct 11-15 is Fall break. My dd suggested we drive back home to visit Dad since we probably will not see him in Nov or Dec. I am really homesick and would love to go back for a bit. I decided he can sleep in the spare (he did that for 6 months last year) and we can have a pleasant family time hiking, going to the Balloon Fiesta, playing games, catching up with friends. He will probably be very sweet and may initiate intimacy if I act open to it. If my 16 yr old sees that we reunite in this way for the weekend she will be disgusted with me for being so weak to a person who turns around and is disrespectful as soon as I make any request for coordination for recovery.

He has offered to stay with a mutual male friend. We could go that route ...but him doing the activities with the girls and me being left out of enjoying the kids during their vacation from school does not sound like a good time to me. Nor does staying out of state (where I am bored) and sending the girls back to have fun sound good. I am trying to not get depressed. Going back home and having a good time sounds like the least painful for me. Although I am not 100 % sure about how to treat him.

One of my girls loves it our new state and the other is undecided. I think a trip back home would help us decide where we want to live come January. If we move back it is understood he moves out until he decides to recover, works on positive new behaviors (me too) until they are automatic. No moving back too soon this time!!! If he never decides to recover then I go on with my life without him. I thought it would be easier to do out of state but now I am thinking back home, to our nice house, with my new job, would be the most comfortable.

How should I mentally approach this trip and what does Dr. Harley think about my current plan b?

blueskies, this paragraph is what really stands out to me. Seems to me that he gave up on recovery because he made agreements with you he was not enthusiastic about. For example, your decision about his spiritual direction and reading the Bible was YOUR desire and probably not his.

That is why he didn't "keep his promise." People don't break promises they are enthusiastic about. In recovery, the goal is to create a compatible lifestyle about which you are BOTH enthusiastic. Of course, he should eliminate things that make you unhappy, but that does not mean he should adopt things that make HIM unhappy. That is renters strategy and as you have learned, people don't do things they don't like for long.

I will be interested to see what Dr Harley says, but my suggestion would to move back home and start using the policy of joint agreement with your husband instead of imposing unilateral decisions on him.

One lesson I have learned the hard way in this program is that extracting a reluctant agreement will ALWAYS come back to bite me. It only causes resentment and in most cases the other spouse will not even honor that agreement. The solution is to NEVER do anything unless there is an enthusiastic agreement.

Also, what are you doing to get your angry outbursts under control?

As a BS I am coming to grips with the fact that divorce is an option. I told him I din't want to go into recovery with him if he was going to take our family in a different direction. He could have said I don't want to go the direction we were going. I could have said fair enough. You don't have to. I was ready to end it right there. I don't feel I could have followed him to take our kids in a different direction. This fact that is what he did do bugs not only me but the kids.

I heard Dr. Harley on the radio a few days talk about the question he throws those in pre marriage counseling about what would you do if your spouse converted to Islam....etc and how an answer of POJA is what he was looking for. But those folks are not post affair.

I also heard the program where Dr. Harley told a BW that she may come to the conclusion that she doesn't stay married to a man who can't handle (forgot the exact word) being a dad to their special needs child.

I think there was also the triathlon WH who Dr. Harley said may not agree to exclusivity; want to continue to have female friends. The BW needed to find that out.

I left him...I am pursuing self recovery...I am moving from doing things out of fear.... I am getting more support by being honest. Ie. I went on a group bike ride. When asked why did I move here. I said upbeatly...my husband had an affair and I moved here to be closer to friends and family. The person beside me said they went through that themselves and was very encouraging. It feels good to quit taking the consequences of his actions...deep grateful sigh.

In fact when we go back to visit...I think I will quit saying vague things about why we left and just be upbeat and honest. It is time people quit wondering why I am so elusive and prickly and relax and be the happy me again.

they censored the work p r i c k l y (like a cactus not the other meaning.

And this is what the POJA serves to prevent. NEITHER of you are able to take the family in your OWN direction. Rather, you make decisions that serve you BOTH. It is no longer win/lose, but win/win. So you don't take the family in a certain direction and neither does he; you BOTH take the family in a direction about which you are BOTH enthusiastic.


But this is just saying it is your way or the highway. That is not how a good marriage works. You basically threatened your husband if he didn't "take the family" to where *YOU* wanted it. That is how incompatibility is created.


It has nothing to do with an affair, though.


That is not relevant to your situation, your husband CAN handle your children just fine.


This is an extraordinary precaution, though, that is not negotiable. Trying to force your religious views on your spouse is not an EP.

But, you could have stayed with him and attended anger management classes. Dr Harley recommends the AngerBusters program for those with anger problems.

I am still confused why you left. You said earlier there was no affair so why would you tell people you left because an affair? Your H seemed to want to work on the marriage, but it appears your unreasonable conditions ran him off.