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�moment of weakness� ?

Sounds like a class to me, even if rare and limited.


"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan

"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky

WS: They are who they are.

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And it bites off your snout
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Originally Posted by Aphelion
If such a one immediately repents, confesses everything to their family and spends the rest of their life making just amends (what constitutes just amends is also debatable � finally starting to do what the adulterer was supposed to be doing all along is minimally weak, IMO)

What individual people might think is just might vary and be debated, but Dr. Harley defines it as the restoration of a secure romantic relationship. In his experience, people who follow his program (including taking extraordinary precautions to prevent an affair from ever happening) are able to lay down enough new positive memories in the brain that they overcome the memory of the trauma, and both husband and wife are in love with each other and thrilled by the result.

What you are advocating with amends for life, though, amounts to punishing the wayward spouse. This would never work to restore romantic love, and so it wouldn't achieve the results Dr. Harley's program aims for: a recovered, thriving, romantic marriage.

If you think punishment in marriage for life is a great idea, then I'm sure you're free to promulgate that idea all you want, but of course this forum is dedicated to learning and discussing Dr. Harley's concepts, so it would be necessary for people trying to apply his program to understand that punishment does not work and why it does not work.

My own personal opinion is that rather than punishing and tormenting someone for life and constantly reminding myself of the trauma, I would prefer divorce and moving on, if those are the only two alternatives. In general for grief recovery Dr. Harley recommends eliminating triggers. Amends for life would be a constant trigger and never achieve the kind of recovery Dr. Harley advocates.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted by Aphelion
After all, according to one of his own articles, adultery is just a � moment of weakness�. I�ll specifically reference the article if you want. It�s also referenced on Pep�s resentment thread.

Don't bother. I'll link it here for everyone to read:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5062_qa.html

If you have a problem with his use of the phrase and feel it is insensitive, I encourage you to contact him directly. In the case of this article, a husband is being an abusive jerk and using his wife's affair as an excuse. Neither one can recover with his approach, which amounts to the "just amends for life" that you are advocating.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Nowhere do I use the word punishment. Stop putting words in my post.

Just getting caught in the first place might seem like punishment for life to some adulterers.

hah, not being able to easily do it again may seem like punishment for life to some adultereers.


"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan

"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky

WS: They are who they are.

When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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Originally Posted by Aphelion
We actually implemented MB methods almost exactly as published even before they were published.

I doubt that. Most of us can't get it right with the program laid out right in front of us.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Sorry. I went to a meeting and now I�m about to head off to the RF tower. Time is short:

According to MB, Amends = Just Compensation = Adopting/Practicing MB Methods For Life.

I collapsed it to amends for life. I did not think anyone would or could take issue with this; it�s very basic MB recovery advice. Please note, I intentionally did not us the words atonement or penance. That is important too.

So, if you can claim tantamount to punishment for life in my post I can, with an even shorter leap of logic, claim you have equated MB methods to punishment for life. And we both know that is not the case. So, I am at a loss as to what you are trying to discredit.

I will however accept your critique of the word �almost exactly� in our use of MB methods way back before SAA and HNHN were published. I hereby replace it with �turned out to be pretty darn close to the common sense approach of MB�.

Regards


"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan

"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky

WS: They are who they are.

When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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****************EDIT******************

Last edited by MBsurvivor; 09/28/12 08:25 AM. Reason: removing reference

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by Aphelion
He recommends treating it sort of like a boil on the [censored] of one�s marriage. A carbuncle. Examine it. Treat it. Get rid of it. Avoid sitting naked on dirty seats in the future. Never bring it up again. Then, forget about it. After all, according to one of his own articles, adultery is just a � moment of weakness�. I�ll specifically reference the article if you want. It�s also referenced on Pep�s resentment thread. (BTW, I am unable to forget much of anything. Semi-eidetic memory.)

No he doesn't. He counsels the cheater to make just compensation to the BS. He doesn't tell the BS to "forget about it" either. He tells them that if they make the present wonderful they won't be living in the past. That is how one forgets about it. Not because they are TOLD to forget about it, but because they DO when the present is great.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by Aphelion
S
I hereby replace it with �turned out to be pretty darn close to the common sense approach of MB�.

I doubt that. You don't have a very good understanding of Marriage Builders. I went to the MB seminar in 2007, thinking that I had it down pat and found out the first day that I didn't have a clue about the POJA. Fixing that one little problem made an amazing difference in our marriage.

In your case, you have never had professional Marriage Builders help so you don't know what you have missed.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by Aphelion
�turned out to be pretty darn close to the common sense approach of MB�.

Seems to me that there's just no way to have an MB inter-dependent marriage of extra-ordinary care with a wayward wife that's engaged/engaging in a very long term affair.

Seems to me...a typical wayward wife would be pushing an anti-MB agenda of independence. She would be highly offended by co-dependent relationships specifically because she'd want and need the freedom and independence herself to carry on her covert relationship(s) with OM(s) while keeping her betrayed husband appeased at home. Such wayward wife would encourage you to do all sorts of anti-mb things like work late, travel alone, have separate friends, activities, and hobbies while at the same time giving you contrived admiration for your work ethic and work accomplishments, and [insincerely] feed your pride about how good a father and husband you were being NOW in an effort to keep you naive and placated.

Your wife played you the fool. She was never MB...she was and remains a unrepentant wayward liar and it appears you lacked discernment THEN because it had to have been noticeable and discoverable if you were truly anywhere "close to" inter-dependent. It also appears that since your discernment button is broken you're compensating by just blanketing the entire former and not former wayward female species into the same bucket forever more as a coping mechanism. Which makes sense...whatever makes you feel safe.

MB is a two way street. You can't get "close" to it if your spouse doesn't truly ever get on board. Perhaps from your perspective it might have been "pretty darn close" but (from what I know of your history) didn't seem "close" from my perspective, nor, seemingly, from your wife's (though she's likely still lying to you about that since you've kept her around).

Further, seems to me truly applying (even "close to") MB principles would have had you divorced about 10, 12, 15 years ago. Dr. Harley doesn't believe in marriages of sacrifice. A loveless marriage isn't anywhere near MB. In fact, he'd probably advise your wife to divorce you since you only SEEM to be staying around to shame and guilt her and you refuse to meet her needs (you don't even touch her). The "When to Call it Quits" parts I, II and III articles may have saved you years of grief. The fact you're still married pretty much proves you didn't do MB.

Mr. W

p.s. - BTW, the MB success umbrella includes 1,000's of healthy successfully divorced individuals.

p.p.s. - On a separate note, MB is not the bible. Dr. Harley isn't infallible. The fact he thinks adultery/infidelity is horrible is well documented so jumping on those three words in one article to make some universal point about Dr. Harley minimizing adultery is disingenuous. But you know that...you appear to just have fun with us little humans, our emotions and the fact we even care. As Markos pointed out...if you write to Dr. Harley and point out that you don't like the way he seemingly minimized the severity of infidelity in that particular article/sentence/paragraph...he'd likely change it. He's changed many things over the years in response to nitpickers using words and statements out of context to disparage him and his ideas. (for example, I believe it may have been the term "lover" describing OM in SAA and/or in an article on MB.com was changed several years ago)




FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered

"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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Forgetting is forgetting.

Maybe other posters have misled me. I have read in several threads, admittedly months ago, various and recommended tricks to help one avoid triggers and otherwise forget the intentionally inflicted pain and anguish of an egregious adultery.

Having one�s ENs met in the way one wants them to be met is a good one too.

How does one forget an entire decade? I forget.

I�m sorry Mel. This is starting to sound like theology. I�m not very good with angles and pinheads.


"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan

"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky

WS: They are who they are.

When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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Originally Posted by Aphelion
Forgetting is forgetting.

Maybe other posters have misled me. I have read in several threads, admittedly months ago, various and recommended tricks to help one avoid triggers and otherwise forget the intentionally inflicted pain and anguish of an egregious adultery.

None of this makes your point, though. Of course people strive to stay away from things that trigger sadness. Isn't that just human nature.

Quote
Having one�s ENs met in the way one wants them to be met is a good one too.

Not a MB concept, though. The MB concept is to meet needs in a way that BOTH want them met, avoiding sacrifice.

Quote
How does one forget an entire decade? I forget.

They create a GREAT decade. If your mind is enjoying the present it won't be in the past.

Quote
I�m sorry Mel. This is starting to sound like theology. I�m not very good with angles and pinheads.

You aren't very good with Marriage Builders concepts either.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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So, Aphelion, do you have some need to argue? You KNOW the concepts of this site. You have ACKNOWLEDGED that you are not comfortable here, dealing with those pesky waywards, and yet....HERE YOU ARE.

Why are you here? What is your goal? Is there some need you have that you have not shared with us? Or do you just want to debate? Let us know, so we know how to respond to you.


D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!

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Sorry, Mel, I responded to your post when I asked for Aphelion's court case. That post was directed to Aphelion.


D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!

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Why are you here? What is your goal? Is there some need you have that you have not shared with us? Or do you just want to debate?

Get in line, MB!

I raised this same issue three days and 30-odd posts ago, and got....zippo.

Maybe he has "minutes" to use up before the end of the month. Maybe he's on a new blood-pressure medication and wants to do a stress test on it. Maybe he just likes to sow doubt among folks who have found a plan and have had success acting on it.

Meanwhile, it's almost midnight and there are members here in much greater need, IMHO.

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********************EDIT*****************

I don't doubt that this happened, though. I would question the timing, and if it was in a situation that would be covered under license.

The timing because if it happened before the passing of HIPPA, the outcome wouldn't be nearly as harsh.

The situation because the non-traditional approach of this program may not require direct application of his license or the licenses of any coaches.

And finally - any complaint lodged as such litigation is just silly. It sounds more like a civil case (though, I am no law expert). Any complaint against a professionally licensed individual can be brought directly through state agencies with no need for court involvement, including breaking client confidentiality.



However, I would neither begrudge and individual, nor would I myself, risk my livelihood or that of my family when maintaining my own integrity does not require me to do so. Though, I have the luxury of several state agencies, and in-house social services when it comes to such things...

Last edited by MBsurvivor; 09/28/12 08:28 AM. Reason: removing quote

"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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If I was paying a counsellor to save my marriage, and the person I was paying good money to was keeping a harmful secret from me, I would view that as a betrayal.

If only my wayward spouse was receiving counselling, and instead of healing him, the cousellor was enabling him to get worse by helping him keep secrets, I would view that as a betrayal too.

As far as the counsellor knows, the WS is giving his BS Aids, for heavens sake.

I was under the impression that if an individual is harming themselves or others, confidentiality ceases to apply.

I have no idea of the laws of the situation, but I think the ethics are pretty clear.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted by indiegirl
If I was paying a counselor to save my marriage, and the person I was paying good money to was keeping a harmful secret from me, I would view that as a betrayal.

If only my wayward spouse was receiving counseling, and instead of healing him, the counselor was enabling him to get worse by helping him keep secrets, I would view that as a betrayal too.

As far as the counselor knows, the WS is giving his BS Aids, for heavens sake.

I was under the impression that if an individual is harming themselves or others, confidentiality ceases to apply.

I have no idea of the laws of the situation, but I think the ethics are pretty clear.


There is a law specific to HIV with which physicians can notify the partners of newly diagnosed cases (in New York and Florida), and in other states clinics provide notification services - as in they will call any sexual partners or at-risk individuals.


Now, as for the rest of the upheaval I state a big, fat... WHATEVER.

It was a study in a peer-reviewed journal about the logistics of therapy, infidelity, disclosure, and client confidentiality.

Don't like the assumptions? You could write the journal... however, I can't even cite it properly because I lost my phone, and the .pdf was on it.


Or, you could sigh and move on...


I happened to like it because the conclusion was that disclosure to the betrayed spouse was the best possible outcome.

"Well, duh."


Whatever. Hindsight is 20/20. And the march of poor people who got the retarded "don't tell" advice? I happen to find a little academic consensus that "don't tell" doesn't work to be a little comforting in a world that hardly gives a crap about infidelity and the damage it does.


I get excited when I find published articles out there that find further academic and professional support for the concepts of this program. I enjoy finding the little underlying concepts behind how it all works (contrast effect is a psychological term, not an exclusive MB term). And when I find those things, I'm a little biased toward this program. I don't pooh pooh and nitpick details when the evidence and conclusion supports concepts here.


If ya'll want to, go ahead. You and the horses you rode in on.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
There is a law specific to HIV with which physicians can notify the partners of newly diagnosed cases (in New York and Florida), and in other states clinics provide notification services - as in they will call any sexual partners or at-risk individuals.

That's a completely separate issue. I was talking about a counsellor's moral responsibility. The fact that physicians have this responsibility only serves to make my case for me. If physicians must do it, why not counsellors?


Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
I get excited when I find published articles out there that find further academic and professional support for the concepts of this program. I enjoy finding the little underlying concepts behind how it all works (contrast effect is a psychological term, not an exclusive MB term). And when I find those things, I'm a little biased toward this program. I don't pooh pooh and nitpick details when the evidence and conclusion supports concepts here.


Well, I'm glad you've found something positive in it. You really must be a ray of sunshine to have done that! All I saw was a very weak-willed acknowledgement that while telling the truth IS best, on the whole they are too chicken to actually go through with it.

While that half-hearted conclusion might seem good compared to the rest of the 'dont tell' counselling mob, that doesnt mean it is good.

My contrast effect is MB. And it doesnt compare well here.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
********************EDIT******************

I am going to ask the mods to remove those references. I shouldn't have posted that.

Last edited by MBsurvivor; 09/28/12 10:22 AM. Reason: removing quote

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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