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I'll ask again: And what did she say when you explained to her that you were NOT happy and satisfied? What did she say when you asked her to do MB counselling with Steve?
D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!
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I'll ask again:And what did she say when you explained to her that you were NOT happy and satisfied? Hmmm. Which time? I've informed her at least a half dozen times that I was not happy and satisfied. Most times she says she's trying. Other times she's informed me about things I could do better ... and of course I jumped to fix them. Right now it's different though because right now I'm not pushing. I tried to do what I can to communicate my concerns and tried to bring her on board. The last time I again mentioned doing something with the Harleys or a MB weekend she said no. I stated to her emphatically that I was going to lose interest and stop trying and that when she saw those things she would need to be concerned. And it has happened and she continues to pretend that the problem doesn't exist ... I don't know ... she doesn't bring it up. In the last 6 months she asks what's wrong and I say the same old things that have always been wrong. It's odd because we are acting like roommates. We talk very little. We never have a laugh together. We plan no UA together at all. She does her thing and I do mine. What did she say when you asked her to do MB counselling with Steve? "No. That's too expensive. They're just gonna tell me what I have to do and I don't like being told what I need to do. I'll dig my heels in and I'm not interested in that". When I ask for alternatives she suggests nothing (just shrugs) or suggests the counselor we saw before through my EAP. Uhm... she's no longer counseling remember? What is really sad is that I am at the point I really don't like much about her anymore, she knows something is seriously wrong and it's quite possible she'd be willing to try some things now. I just don't feel like trying. The thought of having another conversation where I try to persuade her in helping me fix this only makes me dislike her even more. She wants a good marriage heh she wants a marriage? She needs to step up. I need her to entice me back. I'm not being vindictive. It is where I'm at with her. I've really lost whatever it was I had for her and I just don't believe there will ever be enough for me to feel what it is I long to feel. It sounds like I'm rewriting history when I say this ... but I know I was in love with the concept of a loving, giving, sharing partner and always wished for it ergo I strived to obtain it. She's never really been "the one".
Me: 57 Her: 54
M: 31 years
Kids(DS23, DD20, DS18)
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What can we one trick ponies do for you? 
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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It has been a few weeks since I've last posted. I continue with physical therapy and my back is doing quite well. So much so I am more able to focus on other things. Things around the home seem to be getting worse as the big white elephant still stomps around the home while we both pretend it doesn't exist. She's spent some time away at her sisters doing the horse thing while her sister was on vacation. I'm to the point where something's got to give. I'm so far withdrawn it's hard to muster the energy to initiate any relationship talk. But I'm definitely unhappy about hanging around like we're roommates. I put together a letter to send to her and will do so shortly. Feel free to critique it. What I need help is in deciding what is going to be the most helpful for me. I'm so far withdrawn I'm going to be the reluctant one in committing to a plan ... even though I'll be proposing a plan I think we need to take. Assuming I can get her to commit to something I suggest I just don't know where I'm willing to start. If we try doing the home study I fear we'll fail due to her long term reluctance to do MB plans and my lack of motivation and desire. If I suggest phone counseling I fear she'll pull the same old "I don't like being told what I need to do" ... which in turn I'd need to hold her feet to the fire ... this or the Big D. Scary stuff. Her is what I thought I'd send to start the ball rolling: It's taken me a long time to work up the energy to send this. I'm sorry it has and I'm also sorry that I have to say the things I'm about to say.
I'm sure it's no surprise we're in trouble. That you and I have drifted far, far apart. Something has definitely changed for me and I feel really sad to find where I am at today.
I've lost a lot of the love that I have for you <MrsAlias>. This is something very new for me and I'm not sure exactly why it has come to this except to say that some things have been stacked up against us and we've done a poor job of tending to our marriage. I know you've been attempting a few things trying to keep some form of a relationship going but unfortunately it isn't working for me.
We need to do something different.
Because I've lost what I once had I feel lost and trapped. I'm no longer in a position where being close to you is what I desire. The reasons are plenty and as you know some of them may not be totally in your control. Still those are things I know if we worked together on a plan many of those issues would disappear. Regardless of that I find myself in a place where I really haven't felt motivated to do something about it. I mean I'm lonely and sad and thus want things to be different but something in me is keeping me from trying anything with you or rather it just isn't appealing to me.
I can't go on like this. I don't want to live the next umpteen years feeling like I have no relationship and I cannot go on not having an affectionate relationship. As of late the kids have really kept me grounded. I really don't want to break the family apart just because I've allowed my relationship with you to die. I imagine the pain it would cause the kids and thinking of what they would have to endure brings tears to my eyes. I just can't do that to them as it would be wrong and a cowardly thing to do.
I don't want a relationship with another person. I'm happy being a Dad and really wish the next few years continuing to be that, a whole family and a Dad. That thought gives me motivation. But you and I just aren't working right now.
I have ideas/plans of things we could do. Some of them are the same things I've discussed with you earlier and some of them are a bit different than what we've discussed in the past. But I really need your assistance in initiating them if you're willing to try something to fix this. I'm pretty sure with work I can get back what is lost but I'm afraid to try, to even start.
You never talk to me about us, as I've shut down talking about us, so I have no idea where you are at. I'm pretty certain you are just as unhappy as I am.
I am interested to hear what you think.
Me: 57 Her: 54
M: 31 years
Kids(DS23, DD20, DS18)
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How about asking her out on a date, rather than ignoring her and then telling her you don't love her? I wasn't all that interested in having sex with my H when he was ignoring me and not dating me. Women typically don't find that kind of thing appealing.
Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
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Mralias, about the only hope I see here is to get her on the phone with Steve Harley long enough for him to sell her on the MB on.ine program. If you get her on board with the online program Dr Harley and your assigned coach can run point on keeping you both motivated. That is the only way I see any hope here.
That is the plan I would have in your back pocket when you discuss solutions.
What is your plan if she says no?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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How about asking her out on a date, rather than ignoring her and then telling her you don't love her? I wasn't all that interested in having sex with my H when he was ignoring me and not dating me. Women typically don't find that kind of thing appealing. Well ... because right now ... I'm not much in the mood to date her. And by sending her the letter I at least start a conversation. Our communication is pi$$ poor right now so a date where we talk is a bad idea. We really need an overhaul to our relationship. I definitely am not asking her to fill a lot of my ENs (SF #1, affection, RC, DS). As a matter of fact I haven't asked for my #1 to be filled in a couple of years. It gets old asking, begging only to get some scraps now and then. I think we've had sex about 6 or 7 times in the last 2 years. It's been 3.5 months now.
Me: 57 Her: 54
M: 31 years
Kids(DS23, DD20, DS18)
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Mralias, about the only hope I see here is to get her on the phone with Steve Harley long enough for him to sell her on the MB on.ine program. If you get her on board with the online program Dr Harley and your assigned coach can run point on keeping you both motivated. That is the only way I see any hope here.
That is the plan I would have in your back pocket when you discuss solutions.
What is your plan if she says no? Agreed. Actually I need someone to run point on myself. I'm so tired of being the point person, of trying to make the R better. I feel like a parent. I wish I had a plan if she says NO. I know I need to have one. I'm hoping my plead that something has to change will be enough for her to agree to anything. It is the fear of her saying that that has paralyzed me lately. I just am not ready to break up the family. I made a commitment to these kids when we made the decision to have them. I need to do right by them. But if she says no ..... sigh. I wish I wasn't so down on us. I really feel I could get excited about doing a program that moves our R in a wonderful direction. But she's been so reluctant to do anything in the past any thoughts I have of feeling good about trying wane with the past experiences I've had trying to get her to commit to it. I almost sense myself not pushing to better the R knowing it could be better just to spite her and her reluctance over the last decade or more. Her and I think so differently. She doesn't believe people change. She believes you live with cards you're dealt. I say you reshuffle the cards. I don't know how she can say this because I've changed a lot since we first were married and she knows it. Grrrr. She can really be frustrating. I think I'm just going to send the letter. I fear she won't want to talk with Steve but I think it is exactly what we need seeing we both are reluctant albeit in different ways.
Me: 57 Her: 54
M: 31 years
Kids(DS23, DD20, DS18)
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I think I'm just going to send the letter. I fear she won't want to talk with Steve but I think it is exactly what we need seeing we both are reluctant albeit in different ways. You would be better off if you counseled with Steve ALONE and let *HIM* help you compose the letter and tell you how to approach her. That is what I would do. He is very creative and might be able to give you a new approach that will reach her. He actually gives people talking points to do this.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I think I'm just going to send the letter. I fear she won't want to talk with Steve but I think it is exactly what we need seeing we both are reluctant albeit in different ways. You would be better off if you counseled with Steve ALONE and let *HIM* help you compose the letter and tell you how to approach her. That is what I would do. He is very creative and might be able to give you a new approach that will reach her. He actually gives people talking points to do this. I see. OK. I'll give that some thought.
Me: 57 Her: 54
M: 31 years
Kids(DS23, DD20, DS18)
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I think I'm just going to send the letter. I fear she won't want to talk with Steve but I think it is exactly what we need seeing we both are reluctant albeit in different ways. You would be better off if you counseled with Steve ALONE and let *HIM* help you compose the letter and tell you how to approach her. That is what I would do. He is very creative and might be able to give you a new approach that will reach her. He actually gives people talking points to do this. I see. OK. I'll give that some thought. You should definitely do this. I did get my H to agree to coaching, but he waffled a LOT and many times he refused to get on the phone before the call, but eventually he did get on every single one.
Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
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Catch-22.
I do feel I need to, at a minimum, let her know that I'm going to call someone even if I say it is only for me.
We still agree on financial issues and for me to go spend any money on a counselor that costs as much as the Harleys do will be a big LB for her. I definitely am trying to remain respectful despite our roommate-type situation.
However, she knows I can get free counseling from my EAP so talking to her about it will create a conflict. She'll be upset that I'm spending the money.
Me: 57 Her: 54
M: 31 years
Kids(DS23, DD20, DS18)
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In my sitch, I did tell him I was making the call, and he could join me if he'd like, but I did not give him the option for him to say NO to me.  I was already on MB for quite some time and I was full-on FED UP. I wasn't going to POJA refusing to remain in an unhealthy marriage. After that initial call, which he did join me on (he was well aware of MB), we POJA'd buying a bulk of sessions, and then another one.
Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
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In my sitch, I did tell him I was making the call, and he could join me if he'd like, but I did not give him the option for him to say NO to me. Which is what I'm thinking I should do.
Me: 57 Her: 54
M: 31 years
Kids(DS23, DD20, DS18)
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MrA, Steve won't counsel you together anyway so she won't be able to join you unless it is to split the call. Even so, your marriage is not in recovery so this decision can't be held hostage to the POJA when you don't even USE the POJA. When your marriage is on the verge of collapse, you don't have the best options anyway so you have to risk the LB of IB if it helps your marriage in the end.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Today I spoke of the white elephant in the room.
I provided my wife with a list of things I needed to do to make a change and at the top of the list were both doctor related.
I need to see a doc about my T levels due to a drop in energy, drive and desire.
I need to see a counselor because I can't go on living like her and I are just mother and father.
She agreed to counseling and even said she was doing some searching the last couple of weeks. I am persuading her that we see an MB counselor. She is hesitant about phone counseling (which surprised me).
Melody, she prefers to speak with a woman counselor. I suspect that is because she's expecting the topics of her past(abuse) and doesn't want to discuss it with a man.
So it's probable that Steve is out. Doesn't Steve's wife counsel too and would she be a good fit for us?
Last edited by MrAlias; 10/31/12 08:43 AM.
Me: 57 Her: 54
M: 31 years
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So it's probable that Steve is out. Doesn't Steve's wife counsel too and would she be a good fit for us? Steve's sister Jennifer Chalmers counseled us. She was blindsided by my XH but he was a world class gaslighter. It really did not matter because the moment we tried to use the Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA) he gave the game away by agreeing not to do the thing I was not comfortable with and then going off and doing it anyway.
3 adult children
Divorced - he was a serial adulterer
Now remarried, thank you MB
(formerly lied_to_again)
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So it's probable that Steve is out. Doesn't Steve's wife counsel too and would she be a good fit for us? Steve's sister Jennifer Chalmers counseled us. She was blindsided by my XH but he was a world class gaslighter. It really did not matter because the moment we tried to use the Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA) he gave the game away by agreeing not to do the thing I was not comfortable with and then going off and doing it anyway. In your opinion if you have a couple that truly wants to make a change is Jennifer more than qualified to help with that? I don't think my wife nor I would try to manipulate the sessions. We just need a guide and someone to hold us accountable.
Last edited by MrAlias; 10/31/12 08:58 AM.
Me: 57 Her: 54
M: 31 years
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She agreed to counseling and even said she was doing some searching the last couple of weeks. I am persuading her that we see an MB counselor. She is hesitant about phone counseling (which surprised me).
Melody, she prefers to speak with a woman counselor. I suspect that is because she's expecting the topics of her past(abuse) and doesn't want to discuss it with a man. Steve's sister, Dr Jennifer Chalmers, a psychologist, is a super counselor. I would try her. But I caution you about leaving this selection of a counselor open to her, because if you don't get a MB counselor all of your efforts will - ONCE AGAIN - be wasted. And they won't be talking about your wife's past "abuse." That would be a waste of time. That is what BAD counselors do.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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[
In your opinion if you have a couple that truly wants to make a change is Jennifer more than qualified to help with that?
I don't think my wife nor I would try to manipulate the sessions. We just need a guide and someone to hold us accountable. I think Jennifer would be PERFECT for you two. I agree with livingwell that Jennifer might not be as good with gaslighters, but your wife is not a gaslighter. Some of the best marriages on this forum were saved by Dr Chalmers. Papabear and Mamabear have a fabulous marriage today because of Dr Chalmers.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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