Now I don't understand what you mean. I thought there was only one online course, which is the one that I'm doing. It costs about $1000, and you have weekly online contact with your coach (Kim or Sandy) and online contact with Dr Harley when you need it. It takes at least a year to complete.

What online course are you doing? How much does it cost? Can you provide a link to it?

after re reading it i guess i got my terms mixed up. we ordered the home study courses and seminar it was roughly 350 bucks

Thats why I think its important for you to get 20+ hours per week because the more time she spends with you, the more emotionally attached she will be. But that won't happen if there is not the correct amount of time and/or the appropriate atmosphere. It has to be QUALITY too.

Just ask yourself when you feel more romantic? Out on a date when you are all dresssed up and smell nice at a nice, romantic restaurant? Or sitting at home on the couch in your dirty jeans after you have been exhausted from taking care of kids all day?

Quality matters very much.

Its a DJ to try to educate your spouse. But it isn't a DJ to say its what you want in a marriage. Having made your position clear, drop it.

Melody Lane made an excellent suggestion when she recommended you counsel with Jennifer Chalmers.

You could also do what Marko suggested, tell her you understand SF is not possible for her. You just wish she would 'try to empathise' with you. Ask for her empathy. She either will or won't. Her perspective is up to her.

Another idea is to get her on the phone (the two of you) with Dr Harley on the radio to see what he says on the matter.

okay so it takes 2 to do this. i cant force her to do anything. we talked about this very issue about an hour ago. i told her dr harley wouldnt even see a couple unless they were willing to commit to 15 hours. she said well our situation isnt typical...and its not but noones is. i said if we can avg 3 hours a night 8-11 we could potentially get 21-22 hours a week. she responded. when do we get anything done that needs getting done? ie the house, projects, life in general....its nearly impossible to get anything done with the twins right now. she said maybe we have to get that time WITH our kids. i said thats redefining it. she said maybe we have to redefine it for our situation. she was getting testy so instead of reluctance in ua time, here we are unloading boxes to appease her. negotiating wasnt going to happen. boxes are more pressing to her

I saw something yesterday and God spoke to me and I felt I needed to tell you this. I see things like this all the time and then write about them. I don't have time to write it and polish it as a finished piece, but here it is anyway:

We put out some new hay for our cattle yesterday in the pen. I went outside in the afternoon and noticed that a new calf was outside the pen and its mother was inside the pen eating. The poor calf was mooing and mooing. It needed its mom's milk and its mom!! ( I think the calf is a week old or something.) The mom would turn and moo at it, but it was enjoying the new hay. Now it is a relatively long way to go around the pen through the woods and around the other side to get to the entrance of the pen, but the calf didn't understand that. It was trying to get through the hog wire around the pen and was succeeding to a certain extent ( getting its head through) but it was going to really hurt itself if it kept going. I went over to try and help the calf. That calf wanted NO part of my help and tried to kick me. It stood its ground. It wanted its mom and didn't realize that I was trying to help it. Through the fence looked like the shortest and best way. The mom was somewhat concerned but not really. She was too busy eating the hay and just kept mooing to the calf to come there. I finally went and got some cubes and put them in the trough that was outside the pen. All of the cows and bull came running and I shut them out of the pen. Once the momma was free from the distraction of the hay, she went running around and through the woods to get to her calf.

I see you as the calf. You are convinced that if you can just get through that fence, you will reach your wife ( momma). But you cannot go that way. The way that you want to reach her looks quick, but it will rip you and your marriage to shreds. You need to walk what looks like the long way around to get to the entrance of your wife's heart. It takes longer. There is just no way of getting around it. Your wife is the momma cow. She is distracted by the hay. She has to get out of the pen and into the pasture to find you. You might have to use the cubes (meeting her emotional needs) to get her out of there.

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." Matt 7:13-14

Sorry it isn't poetic or polished yet, but I hope it still helps you see your problems in a new light. I know it helped me see mine!

Praying for you.

You say you want to get SF.

Yet you refuse to move after NC was broken. 1.5 million and your WW still manages to break NC. Every time NC is broken the addiction for OM restarts for your WW and she has to start the detox process over again from the beginning.

Your WW knew OM shopped there yet she still shops there. Yeah right city of 1.5 milion and there are not enough stores to shop where the OM does not.

If you read here what others say besides posting your own woe is me that UA needs to be at least 20 hrs a week get the love back. The 12-15 hrs is just to maintainn the love.

Summary, your good at complaining.
One of the best at finding excuses.
Blame shift withe the best of them.
Hold your own at doing nothing.

You need to relocate far away from the OM and get up to 20 hr UA time. That is if you really want SF. Talking about recovery is not the same as doing recovery.

You need to back off sir. Did you not read my last post? I'm TRYING to do this. I'm TRYING to figure out how to get her on board with these principles without DJing her, with SDing her, I'm trying to RESPECTFULLY persuade her that these are true principles to creating romantic love. A lot of my own expressed reservations are based on things she's said to me, like last night for instance. I mean, when she said she felt that maybe we have to get our UA time WITH our kids? I mean it shows she doesn't get what UA time is yet. As I was trying to persuade her she was getting frustrated and testy with me so I DROPPED it and acquiesced her demands to go unload boxes. She hasn't bought into the program like I have yet. We did another seminar last night after the bozes(lovebusters) and she felt I selfishly demanded her to do it? I asked her if she would, she said yes, but reluctantly, I asked her again is there something else you'd rather do, then she kinda yelled at me, THIS IS WHAT I WANT TO DO. So we did it. Afterwards she was still pretty frustrated and expressed how I 'punish' her by 'sulking' if I don't get my way. I know that's been a guilty charge of mine in the past, but I'm far more cognizant of it today and I don't believe I was doing that last night, but I accepted that as critical feedback. As we aired some grievances like that, the conversation actually turned pleasant and we had a good hour or so discussion on some of the things we learned and about some of the things we're dealing with. However, she's really left me with little hope in a satisfying SF life.

I know you're right tiredwife in your analogy which is why I don't press the issue with her ever. She realized she DJed me on SF as an emotional need conversation the other day(which was essentially the conversation Indiegirl talked about having with her, that exactly what we did) and I was able to express things to her a little better last night, but she certainly doesn't really understand my perspective. It's more of a we'll agree to disagree attitude. If I knew we were working towards making our relationship whole in that aspect, I wouldn't get so down. She keeps telling me that she has to spiritually closer to God on an individual level. I don't discredit that. I think we all need that and that it ultimately helps our marriage in the long run. But I feel like there has to be direct efforts on the relationship as well for the more indirect form of healing the relationship(spiritually speaking) can be maximized.

I'm just worried if I don't push the program as hard as I do, we'll go back o a similar lifestyle that led to the affair in the first place. Some counsel I received from my church leader was to not let these events lower the standard for my marriage. However, I believe I need to take it a step further, to allow these events to raise the standard for my marriage. That if we sink back to what we were, then we'll have the same problems as before which ultimately led to the affair. But I worry too that if I push too hard she'll dig her heels in. She admits often that she's stubborn, and I don't disagree and so it's always a delicate art form to respectfully persuade her to do things that don't align with her perspective initially.

NeedMeeter, easy now.

I think that you will agree you have been somewhat resistant and defensive at times. Even this thread was started defensively and dishonestly. That will get you some 2x4s. I have em on my thread too!!! This is bootcamp.

That said, I think you would walk over hot coals to save your family.

We know you would!!! We know how hard you're trying.

But if you're going to get blistered soles, you'd better be walking in the right direction.

We need to know YOU are on board with all the principles and are dedicated to making it happen.

If we have you, we can work on her.


That was right. For one thing, doing tasks together is great UA time if you can mix some needs in. And what wife doesn't like to chat as her husband helps her?

You were VERY right to stop before you became frustrated. You are James Bond cool while in Plan A. There's a difference between stating RH assertively and nagging someone or trying to educate your spouse. Make your point and drop
it. She heard you.

Persuading/educating is an SD because it creates unpleasantness for a spouse who doesn't submit to the SD.


She needs time to get it. She may have a high FC need too. Well help you figure out a few UA solutions for you to POJA with her.



Do your best to keep negotiations safe and cheerful. Make requests in a confident and bright tone. Keep it BRIEF and at all times respect her right to say no. Even key parts of the plan. You have your plan but she must get on board freely.



I don't see why. Her lovebank isn't full but its wide open and available for deposits. Once the level is above the threshhold for romantic love, SF happens. Just does. She doesn't have to get it intellectually for this to be the case.



Hmmm. Never persuade her to do anything she isn't enthusiastic about. Let me explain.

If she doesn't want to have a fulfilling marriage including SF and affection, you don't want the marriage.

Its that simple. You want her enthusiasm, not to nag her into it.

The best plan of action is the carrot and stick of Plan A. Your MB principles are held to fast, but she has to choose it freely too. To create a great marriage which she really really wants -s the carrot. A divorce where she doesn't get her fun dates or other needs met is the stick she wants to avoid.

Whenever you feel yourself wanting to persuade her on MB cornerstones say: "Well I would only want you to if you were enthusiastic. Its a must for me and I can't do without it, though." Then drop it.

NM/HH,

I wondered what had happened to you...

I would advise you to look into Plan D. I do not think your WW is open to having an MB marriage with you which includes SF. This has gone on for a long time and I get the vibe that she would be perfectly content to be in a sexless marriage...and it has zero to do with running into OM at the grocery store.

I am not sure whether you will truly look into Plan D and present that option to her either though. Tough choices as there is good and bad to both decisions especially since you have little ones. If your WW INTENTIONALLY neglects your need for SF, then you have to make a decision. No one can do that for you. Your WW is full of excuses.

I'm nowhere near that point. Today turned out to be a great day. Still some things that bother me, but not that important. Spent a nice night together with football and cuddling(almost perfect!) Bur we played games afterward, and had some fun talks about dreams and the future. She made a couple comments today that makes me retract my thoughts from earlier posts about hope for the future. It's coming. JUST....BE.....PATIENT....ugh. Thanks for all the support.

Well good luck to you NM. I still don't see it, but I don't have to be married to her either.


To have sex? ^^^ is a crock. Good luck!!!

Of course NM isn't going to settle for a sexless marriage, but its hardly unusual for WWS to be averse to that. Dr H recommends divorce at the 2 year point after trying Plan A and Plan B. What are your timescales like, NM? How long in Plan A already?

okay so she brought up a conversation about sex last night, right before bed. she asked me would i marry her if i knew she was incapable of having sex with me. she gave some weird example of cultures that sew a woman up. i mean total left field stuff. she said she doesnt want sex to be purely physicaal, that she wont even act on her own physical impulses which she says she gets weekly. she wants me to say i would love her unconditional of this request. i can tell shes testing me. her friend whos husband had an affair years ago told her that if they never had sex again hekd be ok. thats what my wife wants to hear, but im being open and honest with her. i said if i wasnt a good father would you marry me? if i want willing to provide financially. i said theres a difference of being able and willing vs. unwilling but able. she said she could through marriage with every other need being met without sf being met. i said i feel its an essential ingredient to a happy and healthy marriage.

Stand your ground. Just as you cannot nag your perspective, neither can she be allowed to twist your arm.

And don't let her tag sex as 'purely physical'. Rebrand your need as 'romantic sex' whenever possible.

'I need romantic sex to be happy'

'I will not stay in an unromantic marriage'

'I cannot stay with someone who is not romantically attracted to me'

'A marriage without romantic sex is a fake marriage'

Keep your responses brief. If she whines that is not what she wants - respectfully refrain from educating her. Say merely 'That is up to you. If you are not enthusiastic, I wouldn't want you to'. Then become too busy to talk.

The problem is she's still VERY foggy and coming out with some hilarious fogbabble.

This is a direct result of contact. Because she saw him again, you are being compared to him again.

APs believe in unconditional love.
Why wouldn't they? If a loser POSOM doesn't make any money that's no big deal. The BH is taking care of that need. Most affairs also start out sexless too. The OW feels her heart and mind is treasured above her body. Of course (as we keep telling you) shell have sex once her lovebank increases. Then there is the hot-to-trot sexy OW. If she isn't affectionate who cares? He has BW to soothe his troubles after SF with OW.

But they don't see it that way. They see unconditional love. They see that they are in love 'despite all obsticles' and in spite of logic!

This 'unconditional love' is usually a double edged sword. Because as you can see it is placing quite a lot of conditions on you!!

Just calmly and quietly say 'no' to unconditional love. Read Dr H's article on it.

You must get her out of withdrawal. Any other accidental meetings would probably see her restart the affair. She is deep in the fog.

Sewing up!! Blueerghh.

I am quite pleased to be OUTSIDE that culture.

That's exactly what I did. I said, sex isn't just physical, especially for me in our relationship as husband and wife. I'm not going to tell her what she wants to her, I'm going to give her accurate feedback. Sex is an essential part of happy and fulfilling marriage. I can't function in a fulfilling marriage without it.

This is weird though. Just a couple hours earlier, she we were talking about our kids and when they grow up. She wants to go travel. She said in 18 years I'll be so old, and that was rather young still, and that maybe we should was done with kids so she could do that. This is coming from the woman I married who wants ~6 kids. I know things change, but just context. I just smiled and said, you know you're not done yet. She said that requires a certain act...but I'm not going to freeze you out. I just left it at that. Then she came in and watched football with me and cuddled, we actually talked a lot during that time mostly about traveling to exotic places.

It's so weird. There are so many things she's said over the past 6 months where I literally can't even comprehend the words coming out of her mouth. Like WHAT? Who are you and what did you do with my wife's brain? The fog babble has minimized, but last night was worrisome, especially after such a good night.

This is what I was talking about earlier in the thread when I felt she wanted to downgrade our 'marriage' relationship to a purely 'courting' relationship. The lack of SF, or the hope for it in the future, cheapens the marriage relationship. that's what I was saying. to ONLY court. I understand courting is the fundamental root to a good marriage. We've done that part rather well. It seems our most pressing marital conflict is and always has been over sexual differences.

I don't believe that. He's not willing to divorce his WW or even discuss the possibility of D with her. Right now his WW KNOWS she doesn't have to do anything and he will stay...little UA time, no SF, no Affection and add in some WW guilt trips...that is what NM is settling for. WW's attitude sucks. I see nothing but excuses from her and NM backs off to avoid LBs...cycle from hell.


If you were shopping together, how did she see OM but you didn't?