By the way we have gone over this before. I am tired of bashing my husband to correct your sometimes not spot on advice. I'd prefer to make a list of things I like about him as a motive to stay...if that is what you are trying to do.

I gave recent radio clips to show even Dr Harley knows when to let people know...it might not work out...a BS may not want to be with a person who behaves in a certain way or who refuses to give up certain damaging behaviors.

Perhaps you should follow Dr. Harley's lead to care more for people than on insisting that every BS should keep trying and trying to recover to a reluctant spouse. The toll that takes on the BS and trickles down to the kids can be very damaging.

I'd prefer that you no longer post on my thread. I know you have the best intentions but I don't have much faith in you anymore. You lost me back when you argued with advice from SH and Dr. H about MB or the highway when they clearly said opposite of that. Seems like you think MB or the highway is an okay demand but my faith and our kids faith is negotiable. Perhaps if my H was honest and did not pretend outwardly to follow the faith and in private do otherwise we could make some progress with POJA. On my part...I will not take part in pretending. And his pretending leaves me little to admire in the honesty category. For there to be any recover I need foremost to know he is being honest and open with me.

Yes I left because he had an affair and did not want to recover.

blueskies I've only been here a short time and I am reading your posts and they are VERY confusing.
Melody Lane has been nothing but helpful to me and she is trying to be helpful to you as well. I think you are very much in your own Plan here. I can't speak from experience with the MB program, but I would recommend if you really want to save your marriage that you listen to the vets here. I assume you came here for help.

I re read my post to Dr. H at MB radio. It is not clear that our biggest struggle/arguments was his unwillingness to follow through with POJA, scheduled UA, and being honest with me about when he was scheduled to work alone with a female during a mid shift. If he had been happy to tell me vs defensive I would have been more than happy to spend the night at his work...but that would have embarrassed him. These are very basic items necessary for just compensation and recovery. The fact that he still overlaps the OW one day per week at his job in a far away place in the building is all the more reason why I deserve openness and honesty without his being defensive. He thinks it is me holding the A over his head.

I hate spouse bashing...guess I tired to be as positive as possible and still tell the background...perhaps I have to add this bit of spouse bashing...uhhg.

My real point to writing Harley is that
1. I am still in love with the guy I thought he was before the A and I am not sure i want to be with this "new" guy.

2. What does he think of my plan b

3. how do I handle fall break

I didn't ask you to "bash him," though. I simply asked for an explanation of why you left him, which remains murky. If my advice is not "spot on" it is because you don't give basic facts.


But you took those out of context. His unwillingness to comply with your spiritual goals is not a damaging behavior. Trying to force your own will on him IS damaging behavior.


I don't do that though. I fully agree with Dr Harley that every marriage is not salvagable. If you want to leave to your marriage, more power to you.


No, it is not true that Dr Harley has said the opposite of that. He very much believes there is ONE PATH back to recovery. One path, not several. Read this and tell me if you think he believes there is another way:



Does that sound like he supports any program? He has stated often that he has no faith in other programs and calls most "destructive." He doesn't endorse other programs here because most don't work. As someone whose marriage has recovered from an affair, I have learned he is correct.


I never addressed your faith, though. Not once. I addressed your attempts to force your faith on your husband, which is destructive to marriages and a violation of the POJA. I tried to tell you that this is probably why your husband gave up on recovery. I can understand why he did. Sacrifice never helps marriages and that is what you are asking your H to do.

On the other hand, making Marriage Builders a condition of reconciliation is not destructive; it ensures the recovery of your marriage. There is no other program that can do that.


What choice does he have when you give him an ultimatum about following your religious dictates? It is your way or the highway. You want to gain at his expense.


Then why be so cagey about it?

blueskies, your posts are so incoherent and confusing. I don't know how you expect people to follow them and give you good advice when you withhold facts. How could anyone be "spot on" in their advice, if you are not "spot in" in providing the necessary facts required to give sound advice? If your husband still works with the OW, then that would explain the basic problem, but you don't mention that until you are DAYS into this thread?

Posting basic facts about your spouse is not "spouse bashing;" it is only imparting the neccessary facts to guide others in helping you.

Would you expect an accurate diagnosis from your doctor if you purposely withheld your symptoms? You would just be wasting his time as you waste our time here.

I hope Dr Harley is able to understand your email because I sure do not. I read it 3 times and still don't get the point. Are you planning on being cagey with him when it comes to giving him the facts about your marital problems?

Triple H , marcos and a few others who have skipped my mind have been helpful.

But when folks argue with Dr. H and SH they loose me.

Even on MB radio Dr. H will give advice and Joyce will say but that is not what you said this time or that time...and Dr. H will explain why this situation does not FIT that problem. That is why it can be beneficial to hire a coach to get advice specific to your situation. I feel if a person brings that scenario to the board the board should help the person to follow that prescribed advice. If someone doesn't understand perhaps they shouldn't say anything at all. I've seen many posters slammed with advice and my advice to them...is if you are in coaching and you are at a cross roads it is okay to talk it out here...it helps for when you talk to the coach, to focus. But sometimes the best advice unless you have been through something very similar is either to back up the coach or suggest it is time to talk to the coach again. It is expensive so folks can't do that for every little detail.
A good question to ask ..."perhaps you misunderstood the plan your coach laid out for you? " but for people to try to replace the coach is not helpful. HHH got the plan SH laid out. It is not that impossible to get as long as you are not narrow in your thinking...or if you are new...it is understandable this thread is hard to follow. HHH has reminded me of the plan a few times when i was loosing it. marcos ( I think) enlightened me plan b is not to recover my marriage...someone else enlightened me that no one does a perfect plan a...might even have been melody. But the part where others argue over the plan is just plain not helpful.

I think I have the right to let Melody know she is not helping me and I am not open to her. Perhaps she is correct on many things...but she lost me and I now have a barrier. I got coaching and she argued with it.

I agree with this to an extent - I don't appreciate it when folks come here and argue against Dr Harley. You are arguing against Dr Harley, the founder of the program, and that is not going to help you one bit. He doesn't endorse other programs as I showed with his quotes above.


If you want people to understand, you should provide the basic facts. You came here asking for help, we didn't come ask you. You came here and asked for help and then made it impossible to help you because you are cagey and secretive with the facts.

You asked for help with Plan B and then refuse to tell people WHY you are even in Plan B? Surely you can see how unwise that is?

I have to conclude that you just don't want to be understood.


Would you consider that maybe you aren't the best judge of what is or isn't helpful? Your posts remind me very much of the people stranded in New Orleans after the hurricane who shot at the rescue helicopters.

blueskies, people here sincerely want to help you, but no one can help you if you are not open minded and forthcoming with the facts. No one.

I think it is interesting that you believe it is a good thing to be honest with your social circle, but "elusive and pr*ckly" with board members you have asked for help?

Instead of saying vague things here why not be "upbeat and honest" when it would be to your own benefit?

Why is it "bashing" your husband to give us necessary facts but not "bashing" to tell your social circle the truth?

Don't you see how contradictory that is?

I'll quote myself to save time.

You say you're done, ready to call it quits but you really aren't. You thought your WH would give you an answer by October...and?

This "new" guy has been around since 2005!!! You are not in Plan B. You are in Plan H.

Seriously...we went over this OW thing so many times my head wants to spin..If you thought I needed to work on my letter then you could have helped point out info that YOU think is pertinent. I worked really hard to keep my letter to Dr. H short.

As a dietitian you remind me of doctors who don't take the time to look at complicated charts of people who have been sick for a long time ...you just walk in and start spouting off info that is not currently helpful and disregards most of the care that preceded it.

I don't expect everyone to understand my thread nor to be able to take the time to understand all that has gone on in the last 8 years when my husband started his affair. Those who don't have the time don't need to bother reading or answering with quick advice.

I spent 9 hours following one thread. It was very healing for me. I saw the BS mistakes, successes...I had the time. If you don't have the time as you told me once before...then it is okay. You don't have to feel responsible to look at my thread. It is okay not to look.

I told you I have gotten help on the board that was not from you and it is okay with me if you don't try to help me anymore. I actually prefer that you don't try to help. Thank you for respecting this request.

blueskies, you're all over the place. I'm catching up on your thread and can't even follow you. Not a word about an affair, and then suddenly THERE'S AN AFFAIR. Do you not understand how important this is to your story?? What happened with the affair? What's the story there??

And do you not realize how important MelodyLane's posts are for you?

Blueskies, do you want help, or NOT? How do you want us to help you? I've been reading your posts tonight, and have been struck by your negative, solitary attitude toward your marriage.

AND I have been appalled at your snarky responses to some of the best posters we have on this site. You, missy, need to apologize. And ask the posters here to continue to help you. Because you definitely need help. As you well know.

Yeah that is what I am waking up to. I just wanted to make sure . i know that sounds stupid to those looking on. That is why melody upset be so badly when she told me to go home and start doing POJA. She argues like my husband. Pointing to problems with leaves when the whole landscape has a bigger glaring message. I guess that is why SH reminded me plan B is not to recover my marriage but to move on with my life and still keep the door open. All I can see is the open door. I am having a hard time with moving on. The thought of divorce with me doing the hard work and then him getting the kids for vacation is a tough one. I was wondering now that I see what he really is...I can go now and be civil...have a good time with my kids and let them enjoy their father. I've seen x's like this come to soccer games etc. It is respectable. I know not everyone can do this.

I have no reason to go to that trouble. It is not up to me to untangle your incomprehensible letter. Just look at how difficult and argumentative you are when people just ask you basic facts?


If you were a patient, wouldn't common sense dictate that a doctor can't give you good advice when you withhold facts? You didn't post the facts of your situation on this thread so most here have no idea what the facts are. So there is no "chart" here. Doesn't it stand to reason that being vague about your situation would not result in sound advice?

You seriously expect board members, who have their own families and careers, to have to go read a long, 5 page thread just to get the basic facts because you are too lazy to simply summarize it in a short paragraph?

I hate to tell you this, but people don't have the time to do that. There are so many other posters here asking for help who are NOT vague about their own situation, who want to be helped. There are only a few unpaid volunteers to go around.

We are unpaid volunteers whom you have ASKED for free help. We are not paid to go read through a long thread on another forum entirely just because you like being "vague" and refuse to summarize your situation. That just makes no sense whatsoever.


That's nice that you have the time to do that. But you shouldn't ask others to do that just to understand your story when you could simply summarize your story for them.

Mel told you to go home and start POJA because you were not following POJA yourself while complaining that your WH didn't. Her response was also based on not knowing that NC has NEVER been established...since 2008. All BSs have a hard time getting to acceptance and letting go, whether that is going into Plan B or D. Without NC and a repentant, willing WS (as well as setting the bar high), a marriage will limp along as yours has.

Your WH is lazy and doesn't care. He also knows you can't let go so he tells you anything or ignores you. I read the text exchange in your original thread (pg 1)...you talk AT him in hopes he will do something. He does nothing and you still keep talking. Please stop and take a good look at the reality of your marriage...it is glaring and Mel is spot on about what the problem is.

You describe a marriage not in recovery, in the details you provide, and then lament that it didn't work?

If your H still has regular contact with OW, the affair continues because his love bank still has an acct for her.

And there obviously hasn't been EPs or just compensation, either. In addition, for a marriage to be in recovery, both spouses need to completely eliminate love busters, which you still do, exercise UA time, radical honesty, POJA...

So to clarify...was there EVER a time since D-day when ALL of these steps were happening simultaneously?

black Raven...Maybe it is time for me to move to the divorcing forum? That really is my questions...how do I get over the love I have for Mr. gone, how do I handle vacations with the kids, how do I move from plan b to d. SH wanted me to remain in plan b for just a while yet. He thinks H is going through a process. H talked to the kids the other night and asked them do they want to come back home in Jan or stay out of state? He was intense in asking them. He is taking this seriously.

No I don't want him to be something spiritual just bc I asked. That is ridiculous. You can't make someone be spiritual. It doesn't work that way. But neither do we have to leave our faith or pretend with him.

Yes but he wouldn't schedule UA time with me although I am sure we did 15 hours at least. After 3 months he started to slip. POJA never got used on tough stuff bc during recovery there were no fights or disagreements.

How was I to do POJA when he wouldn't???? I don't get that. So the love busters you talk about on my side was the AO? He was making me CRAZY with flipping everything back at me.. What was I suppose to do??? Was I suppose to just call it quits right away? and leave? was I suppose to just leave him alone and let him get his way by default to keep the peace? I know these questions sound stupid but I am sincerely not getting it.

That's your call, blue. I don't think the location of your thread is the important thing here. If SH wants you to stay in Plan B...that's him but I have no idea what he's based this recommendation on. SH asked me to try R with my WH after Dday#2 and I said no. It is always a BS's choice.

Asking your children about coming home does not mean he is serious about Recovery...it only means he wanted to know where the children wanted to live. Don't read more into than there is. If he was serious, there would be NC, EPs, POJA, UA, etc....there isn't.

When you really separate yourself from your WH and stop trying to control him and the R you want, you will slowly start to feel better, blue. The rollercoaster isn't going to stop overnight. Many people have elected for D and they survived and are even HAPPY again.