Wives in modern marriage have no reason to change. Even if the husband is as good in the marriage as Jesus would be, and the woman wants to love bust and/or not meet emotional needs, she has no incentive to change. I say this because she will have her household and children, and access to the husband's wallet and all it provides, whether the husband decides to take the abuse and stay with her, or to take whatever the divorce settlement comes out to be.

Of course, both households will suffer from the lower standard of living and the stress of separation and all else that comes from it, but she is betting that the husband will endure the stress of the situation she has created rather than striking out on his own whatever the costs.

The husband is always to blame, whether in the Christian or secular world, and the burden always falls on him to make the marriage better by being understanding or supportive or whatever...

The wife can leave the husband for ANY real or imagined offense, and the husband has no choice but to take it. If the wife really is a POS the husband might be able to get custody of the family, but then how can he provide?

When my wife confronted me about some love busters early in our marriage, before we had even conceived of such things, I changed quickly for fear of losing her. I have watched her change for the better as well, but in glacial fashion. We've been married for 17 years, but she still persists in some of the same actions she has always done.

Should it take 17 years for someone to grow out of dishonesty, wasting family money, independent behavior, and a couple of other things? I am feeling increasingly driven under these last few years, and often wonder if should I leave to save my sanity...

That is an offensive post to ALL women. My exH is to blame for our divorce because he was an cheating ahole and piss poor husband. No spouse has to "take" anything. If a wife has a REAL reason to leave why shouldn't she? That makes no sense. There are plenty of men and women who left an abusive spouses regardless of the financial cost. If you stay with an abusive wife (not sure what she is guilty of) that is your choice.

Have you tried the MB program?

Sure we have tried it; I am always the one who has engaged in "marriagebuilding" for us. Buying books, going to counseling or whatever... she just likes to coast.

Well, she did initiate the first counseling session. It basically went like this: she does all these things, I get mad, she feels threatened or judged, and I shouldn't act or feel that way. The pastor basically told me I have to take like Jesus took all the things that He endured. The wife loved it.

Well, there were AO and DJ from me in that timeframe, but what should I do when the rent is late and the utilities are getting cut off because of her? The world, and I guess ppl like raven would say I must, yes, "take it." It would have been much easier in those days to leave her behind, but that was in the days before children. Now I am thoroughly entangled...

I have stopped the love busters for days, weeks, months at a time, and she just mouths agreement, and keeps on doing the same destructive things. I bring about change in my approach to our marriage like driving on the Interstate, she changes like driving in a school zone...

I would suggest trying Marriage Builders.

And raven said - No spouse has to "take" anything.

If you want to "take it" that is your choice. Good luck.

Marriage Builders has been tried. **edit** has been tried. One partner will always have the means to get most of what they want at the expense of the other. I can wait another 17 years for change, or divorce and all that comes with it. Like I said, no matter how good I am, she will never change until she feels like it. And if she knows she can get a compliant me and still get away with her beloved love busters, she will continue to do so...

Did you do the online or MB coaching or what?

Got the books and workbooks, questionaires, identified our love busters and emotional needs, started to work on them. Don't get me wrong, she HAS improved. Unfortunately, her level of improvement increases while my enthusiasm has already dwindled dangerously. Like I said, if she has a nicer me then she just uses it to do what she wants.

We're talking 17 years ago this marriage started with these behaviors, and understandably my ability to endure is waning...

Originally Posted by last12know

Marriage Builders has been tried. **edit** has been tried. One partner will always have the means to get most of what they want at the expense of the other. I

Actually you haven't tried Marriage Builders if you believe that one partner gains at the others expense.

If you haven't been able to implement MB on your own, which you haven't, you might want to escalate it and get professional help directly from the Harleys. Some people can do it themselves and others can't. My H and I were ones who needed the extra push of professional help. It made an amazing difference.

Your wife doesn't sound motivated and that is where the Harley's can really help.

I would stop going to the Pastor for marriage counseling.
Christ does command husbands to love their wives but He never says to be abused by them.
You mention modern women not changing. I understand your frustration.
A woman can say she was beaten by her husband or raped or verbally abused and the husband is at a disadvantage in the courts. But sin is sin. Adam and Eve both ate of the fruit.

Why not try the MB coaching before divorce?
Your wife probably wont agree to it. She will probably want to keep going to the pastor that tells you to carry your cross.

How old are your kids?

The exception to the Policy of Joint Agreement is Health and Safety.
If utilities are being shut off then you need to take control of finances before you become destitute.

Welcome to MB .. I think you should actually listen to the vets here. Read a few stories.. heck read my story and see how reluctant my wife was at first lol. ... post and update us often on your progress and vent here ..Let the vets guide you and use their advice. Use the coaching center to motivate your wife.

I would exhaust all your avenues before just throwing away your marriage and really put in 110% at doing everything you can. Plan A .. then if that doesnt work then prepare for plan B.

Have you explained CALMLY and rationally to your wife how you feel about the current state of your marriage? or do you conflict avoid so you dont rock the boat but have hidden resentments?

MNG

OP, you registered here in 2008.

If you are still in the same situation, then you didn't follow the MB program because that is long past the expiry date of a spouse who refuses to change or meet your needs.

You can hate "us" 3.5ish billion women all you want since it is a lot easier than taking responsibility for accepting continued poor behavior but that isn't going to change your situation.

Actually you haven't tried Marriage Builders if you believe that one partner gains at the others expense...Your wife doesn't sound motivated and that is where the Harley's can really help.

This is precisely the salient point I was going to address. No ONE person can make a truly successful and fulfilling marriage. (One person can DESTROY it, but let's leave that for other threads.)

Eventually, the nexus of the question becomes, "Do both partners want to do the work to make their union better?" If either, after all coaching, counselling, and discussion, still comes back with "No", then the marriage has no future, at least none unmarred by one spouse feeling they have to "take it".

The women that read this post can take personal offense all you like, but that is the way it is. This is not a rant against half the population of the world, it is merely an observation about our society and how divorce works. Never believe that I want husbands to punish wives or take off and not provide for their children.

The way things are now, the wife can do whatever negative things she likes with the husband providing the household. If he gets angry or depressed about the situation, well tough. She threatens divorce and gets to keep bleeding him dry if she goes through with it, although then the amount is limited to a certain percentage... But the family will be devastated emotionally and financially.

All these are observations based on "traditional" marriage with a working husband, and a mom that takes care of the household(which she does pretty well nowadays).

What I guess I am looking for in my wife is for her to find within her own personal sense of ethics and moral order the motivation to not do things that I would not dream of doing to her. I believe that she is more important to me that I am to her, because I gave her the children, who of course naturally love her and she parents them unilaterally.

I am made to be the bad guy in parenting because she friends them instead of parenting. She says she agrees to things and I make concessions, but I find that she reneges on stuff and then lies about it.

I have not been perfect in this whole process, but in the early days none of asking, demanding, begging, or any other intercession on the part of our marriage did any good. Nowadays, avoiding love busters and make some steps toward meeting emotional needs seem to work, but she just behaves stable and sweetly until some independent behavior and then dishonesty surfaces from behind the scenes.

In the early days before children, I changed some inconsiderate behaviors that she confronted me about, without any remorse or revenge,(and quickly!) but received no action on her part about wasting money, dishonesty, or independent behavior.

It seems that my good behavior is just used as a respite from conflict which she uses to indulge in her independent, dishonest life. Spouses are not supposed to be enablers of bad behavior or be a doormat to soak up abuse. However, we cannot do a separation because we cannot finance two households. I once suggested that I would sleep in the garage but she would not hear of it. She said she didn't want to live like that. I think she wants to see me upset every time she disappoints me or test me when it happens, I don't know.

For everyone that suggests I don't have to take it, well, I could leave, and then enter into the two, much reduced and separated households situation of divorce, but like I have mentioned, that is not what I want. I want my wife and I and our family, happy and whole, living as best we can. I don't want to be treated as the ATM and the sperm donor that created the household that she can play house in/with.

This is the way things work in our society today. The wives/ex wives reading this and taking it personally as an attack on them should realize that I am not making any judgements on their situations; their husband probably justified their wives' response to their own negative behavior. Just realize that you have the law prejudiced to your side no matter how ethical or unethical you are in the way you handle your marriage.

Look at this very site, which has plenty to say about "Why women leave men," but has nothing at all to say about why men leave women. The only school of thought that is unbiased in the spouses' roles in the marriage **edit**, and a couple of books I have that deal with marriages on the brink of divorce. We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but powers and principalities, and this uneven handling of marriage roles is one of them. Just don't read this as a woman and believe that I believe YOU are personally taking advantage of it...

Also, we went to the pastor of her church in the first year of so of our marriage, and he was the one that wanted me to take all her actions beautifically. Several years ago, we went to a Christian counselor who was a woman, and I liked her very much. She was even-handed, but just nudged me figuratively to not lean so much on my wife, knowing that my wife was taking it in, but knew that she would not respond to too much exposure of her side of the equation.

That was fine with me, as I could see she was on BOTH our sides, as a married couple. After all, I know that I cannot employ self deception to make myself seem ok and the problems are all on her side, and made sure she and the counselor knew it.

No sir, this is not a reality of wives in modern marriage. It is a reality that in your own marriage which you refuse to leave year after year (and not follow the MB program as you don't seem to understand it). You are not a child - you are free to shape your own future.

If my husband is an ATM, then perhaps I should request the $180,000 in lost income from the past 3 years when he suggested I give up a good career in order to stay home and raise his children in a traditional setting. I won't, of course, but this is the other side of the financial reality for "traditional" wives, that many people seem to forget. When we stay home to fulfill our traditional roles of having children and maintaining the home, we can kiss our incomes and professional development goodbye. It is a worthy trade-off, but we do not financially benefit as you would think.

I think part of your problem is your afraid to rock the boat. Your not acting as a man should. STOP being a "yes man" and have an opinion. Dont be afraid of your wifes emotional reactions. DONT judge your wife by what she says in the heat of the moment. Brush it off .. let it roll off your back and roll with the punches. Judge her by her ACTIONS not her WORDS.

Read my first post to you ... read my story. My wife was a hard head for a LONG time ... and I have been with her for 18 years my friend. And let me tell you .. its only been THIS YEAR... Read that again. THIS YEAR, that she has really realized how our marriage should be and we are finally finding a healthy balance. ALL thanks to MB ... and my own remasculating techniques that diffuse her negativity. (she can hardly keep her hands off me now)

I would say .. if you have done MB like your supposed to and NOT lovebust and work plan A her love bank should be through the roof! ... maybe she has been having an affair and is now privy to the info on this site, so she is good at not getting caught? You should snoop around my friend .. i smell an affair here.

Be a man... stop walking on eggshells around your wife. Dont apologize for your testosterone or desires. Seek to solve your problems rather than place blame. See failures as only a temporary set-back to the inevitable.

If you are in such a state ... that your categorizing women as such. It leads me to believe that YOUR WIFE DOES NOT RESPECT YOU.

Keep posting. Work on Plan A and get some snooping tools in place without her knowing. So you can find out whats REALLY going on. Something is up with her .. at least I think so.

MNG