Not saying it doesn't happen, I just don't know any that became totally sexless....maybe reduced but not zero. Things like age at the time of marriage, added responsibility/commitments, moving, pregnancy/births, or diminished "newness" may be factors along with a bunch of other life stressors. No reasons are given but lots of possible variables.

I believe that one factor is that the infatuation feeling and great sex doesn't equal love. It feels like love because it feels great, is exciting and makes you feel wanted. But it isn't based on having a respect and true love based relationahip with the person. It takes a long time to build the kind of relationahip where you are truly in love with someone and giving yourself to them completely by making love. When we enter into sexual relationships for the enjoyment of sex instead of being truly in love with that person, we are in a renters mindset. You rent many places before your buy your first house, right? Then when the infatuation wanes, the newness wears off, we start to see with more reality that this person isn't marriage material for me. If we truly did it right, we probably wouldn't have too many relationships, much less many relationships where sex is enjoyed. It is the norm now to just have sex in every relationship you are in b/c that is the thing to do. It really shouldn't be that way. God designed sex to be between a husband and a wife in a committed, covenental relationship. People don't care about that, they just live their lives doing it whenever they want. It cheapens the meaning of the act until no one really thinks that it should be something special to share. So, then it is just sex. But, then, is it really just sex? Women usually want to then make a relationship work with whomever they have sex with, whether he is right for her or not. Men might be better able to have one night stands, I don't know. But, I know that women want to be in relationships. So, I personally believe in not having sex before marriage is a good thing. At least then, you know you are marrying the person b/c you are truly in love with her and not b/c the awesome sex and infatuation is blinding you to everything else.

When you take out the moral aspect of sex, it really just mucks it up. It goes back to why God created sex in the first place - procreation. Just because we don't care about that and want to enjoy sex outside of marriage doesn't change the truth that we shouldn't be doing it outside of marriage. If you are going to ignore the moral design of it and want to partake in it before marriage, it is a crap shoot. There are all the strings, emotional attachments, connections that form when having sex with someone else before you know that the relationship will work out. If you repeat the same behavior in every relationship you get into, then you are just having sex. If you fall in love with the person like you said above and it isn't just about sex, then you should consider whether or not you would marry this person, because otherwise you don't love her enough to be making love to her, you will be having sex with her. That whole becoming one, giving yourself, thing that making love brings does NOT work with someone that you are engaged in a sexual relationship with before you know they are the ONE you want to marry no matter how much you care about her.

To someone who doesn't believe in God, none of this reasoning is helpful.

I agree.

Dr. Harley states that he advocates no pre-marital sex because of what the Bible says. But he doesn't use biblical or moral reasoning to argue his point. He uses practical reasoning such as the problems he sees in his clients, and comparison to the cohabitation effect. That kind of reasoning should work regardless of a person's religious beliefs.

Yes that's exactly Dr Harley's point. Those variables (too busy, novelty wears off, children) are present in most marriages but not present in most dating relationships. Those variables need energy to be overcome.

So having sex at a time when teh variables dont exist is not a true test of long term sex drive. Instead you should check out the person's energy level for RC and socialising etc compared to yours.

That gives a better idea of sex drive for a time of stress than simply having sex at a time when there is no stress.

Elope.

Seriously, if it has gotten to the point where you are in love and love is motivating both of you to want to be sexual with you, and both of you are committed to eventually having marriage by the Policy of Joint Agreement, and the people around you agree that your relationship is logical (i.e., they aren't warning you about love busters or serious incompatibility issues or abuse), get married!

That answer is blindingly obvious - no offence to markos!

Frequency is only one issue though but I do agree about looking at the energy level for RC.

My point in even bring up the God factor is that it is impossible to talk about this issue as if there isn't some greater meaning. Whether you believe in God or not, we were created for procreation. All the hormones, connections, heart strings, feelings, bonding associated with the act of sex were created to go with the sex as to help bind you to that person in the covenental marriage. You can't really have the sex without the emotional reactions and bonds that come with it. So, it causes problems when you engage in it with someone that you haven't established the love and oneness to sustain the hardships of life with.

I can't speak for all women, but generally women give themselves for connection. They need that binding connection. The problem is that most people are having sex in relationships with people where that true binding connection can never happen with. It is the mindset of getting it for free, a renter, that also plays a big part. Just like living together before marriage, you then get married and a lot o people don't change the renter's mindset into a keeper's mindset. Then the variables that indiegirl mentioned come into play and there isn't enough bond, love, glue to sustain the relationship. It is hard to sustain the best of relationships where people do have enough love and bond. Making that kind of "committment" to someone when you personally have not made a true committment to them will bring havoc upon the relationship when real life issues such as parenting, disagreements, responsibilities take the "fun" out of it. So the sex problems start because the woman isn't feeling the connection, resentment starts, woman closing down, etc.

Trying to look at it in a wordly, secular way, no matter how practical and intelligently look at it, will not separate the emotional responses and attachments the woman forms that come with sex from the sex. If a woman forms the emotional responses and attachments and is opening herself up to you, she needs the connection that comes with that kind of deep, true love that you won't be able to give her if you don't love her in that way. Meeting that innermost need for connection for the woman is the aspect I am talking about here. If that isn't met, probems will not be far away.

This is exactly what I was trying to get to without saying it in my earlier post when I told him to ask himself if he would marry her - make that kind of committment to her. Because if not, then the love he has isn't enough to sustain the relationship and the sex wouldn't be truly making love in the oneness connection that the woman needs, and would, at some point, become problematic.

It is not that simple markos, especially with the divorced. There are possible financial and child(ren) implications. I'll go on record with this: I get annoyed with all the numbers thrown at divorced BSs (who have already been through a lot thanks to their WSs) particularly BWs. First, it's give yourself 1-2 yrs after D to even date (regardless of how long the D took)...because you are not ready, need to heal, and can't trust yourself. Then you should date 30+ people but don't have sex with any of them. Then if you remarry, you have an 85% chance of getting divorced again (which I still think is a general population number vs those practicing MB in their relationship) so if you have little ones you should probably wait until they are grown (BWs are specifically told this), especially if you have a daughter in the house because your new hubby may be a pervert and make the moves on your daughter. So forget marriage for X years and continue to date but don't have sex or you're immoral.

And the send off message before entering Plan D was you deserve better and to be happy. Well daaaaaanggg just not for a really, really long time I guess.

For people who don't believe in God and follow no moral guidelines, then there shouldn't be a problem other than dealing with the problems that come along with having sex with someone you don't have enough love or committment to to marry. Anything less will create problems b/c of the needs of those in the relationship. Someone's need for true connection will not be met b/c the other person CAN'T give love they don't have to make that happen.

If I'm supposed to consider all MB info/advice (not just the SF part) then I should be unmarried or a nun for AT LEAST the next decade. It may be ideal but likely? no. I don't think that's going to happen and I sleep fine at night. I believe in God and have morals. Dr H said he bases his position on biblical views. Anyway...

When I was married I was was subjected to STDs too...just didn't know it.

I have actually heard Dr. Harley argue against this. I have heard him tell people to get right back out there and start dating as soon as they feel ready. I was kind of surprised, actually.

But then again, I've heard his comments about the kind of men who would be willing to get involved with single women with minor children, and I'm not sure how that all fits together.

Anyway, the idea of dating without having sex doesn't seem like a big hard sacrifice to me, but if you want to have sex, go for it. I'm not arguing for a right or wrong answer here, just trying to understand Dr. Harley's advice and how it all fits together.

I wasn't really responding to your comment black raven. I was still responding to the previous line of discussion. For you, I understand. I only hope that I would be able to abstain. I don't think I could just never have it. That is probably the HARDEST thing about being single, I guess. I will be there some day. The problem for me will be whether I can choose abstinence or not. I do know that I can't pick and choose and change the tenents of faith and values that I accept as a Christian because I don't like it. That is the problem with man today, cafeteria christianity, picking and choosing which of God's rules we live by and which ones we don't want to live by. We can very well feel justified in having all the sex we want outside of marriage, but that will never change the teaching that we are not supposed to and therefore will be committing a sin. This will also be a huge issue for me when I am single again. I don't even want to think about it.

Anyway, enough of the God aspect of this since it is not in play. It is the immense love that needs to be present to meet eachother's needs, to even care enough to meet eachother's needs that I keep trying to articulate in my previous posts(and doing so very badly.) Without that, eventually the relationship will have problems and the sexual component just compounds everything.

I don't see how sex as a single person brings about happiness.

I say that as a man with a very very strong sexual need. But I just don't think that sex outside of a formal permanent exclusive commitment would give me any lasting happiness. Maybe that's just me.

Why is that markos? What brings the lasting happiness? What do you deeply need that just sex wouldn't be enough?

Companionship and partnership.

I don't know how it all fits together either. My point was that a divorced BS has a lot to consider when it comes to dating and potentially remarrying again...and along the way they will be lonely. Romantic companionship is very different from other relationships and brings along a set of struggles including moral decisions that married people don't have to consider. There are a lot of conflicting feelings and I think it is safe to say that no one wants to go down the road of getting into a bad relationship or missing red flags. It is a hard to place to be and it's own rollercoaster. The conflicting advice makes it all the more