I have just come here, read a lot (and my full story) at talk about marriage. I first thought she was a WAW, but then I found the affair. I begged, talked, then onto the 180, a loving letter, ultimatum about the OM. She was threatening divorce, flaunted the A, mad that I exposed, and is in the camp the an EA is just a fantasy. He had a hotel booked to see her, paid for 2 days after she moved out.

the full story is here **edit** if you'd like to read it, very long.

Th short of it is I want to work this out. I filed for divorce after she wouldn't sit down to discuss if it what she really wanted. Sent a loving plan B style email saying good luck with whoever you end up with, then a facetime call about it a week after I filed. She wants to be friends, not lovers, doesn't want to put time into us, doesn't trust me, and doesn't see the wrong in her EA. Blameshifting, rewriting the marriage, better this way, our daughter is resilient, you'll thank me etc. I have been no contact and doing the 180 since that call.

I am wondering what or how I can pull her out of the "fog" and end our D when she is adamant about this. Her question to me - If you want to work it out, why did you file?

We have a 7 yo who is very smart and she has been told most of why from me, mom left, I think there's another person, she is making her own decisions and dad is giving her the divorce she wants, and protecting himself from lies. (in a nutshell)

I am preparing to be divorced, but my gut says it's not over. I can't shake it. I had my own slip up and a ONS after I found out about the affair (her 2nd/possibly 3rd ea) and I am prepared to own it. It made me feel pretty scummy really.

so, any advice on pulling someone out of the divorce process back into a marriage who is living with her family who fully supports her actions? I have no family where we live BTW.

I am normally in favor of people trying to save a marriage after an affair, but this seems to be a way of life with your wife. This is her 2nd or 3rd affair?

The only way to save your marriage is if your wife makes radical changes in her behavior and I don't see that happening, do you?


Apparently, she does not believe that infidelity is wrong and feels she is entitled to have affairs. Do I have that right?

And most waywards want to be "friends" with their betrayed spouses. That really means: "don't whine and complain while I stick it to you." You should tell her that you won't be "friends" with someone who lies to you and cheats on you. Ask yourself if you would choose someone for a friend who lied to you?

That being said, your best shot at waking her up from the fog is exposure. I would expose the affair to everyone starting with your child. Expose to the OM's family, his facebook friends, everyone. If anything can wake up your wife, that would be it. Go read the thread on exposure that is linked in my signature.

Sorry for the reasons that brought you here.

Dr. Bill Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders, on telling the children:

here



here

here

yeah, I get that, the first one was an ex, I wish i had known all the tools to expose, full disclosure, NC etc. This last one I did, her family, my family, the OM's Dad, our close friends who got her story first etc. She is still in the fog since she moved out prior to DDay. I will now have to see her twice this coming week, one for out daughter's student led conference and one at a good friends wedding (very small).

I have told the daughter everything but who the OM is, as I have no idea if it's still ongoing.

the W is in the "happiness" camp, and there are other issues there. In the last talk I had with her she said it all sounds so great, she hates leaving the home but it has to be this way.

I don't want to beg, or look weak, but I feel I haven't done all I can to save this.
Like I said I have been NC with her and the divorce papers have been served. I have days where i want to ask her to read Not Just friends, etc. She thinks i am trying to convince her to come back, but she has to want to do it.

I guess aside from PLan B/180 and filing, is there anything else I can do? Going back to plan A seems like backpedaling but she has said she really likes the attention (obviously) but I don't want to be her fallback plan.

guess I'm feelin stuck!

You must tell DD who the OM is. It does not matter whether the affair is alive or dead. WW can always pretend she never knew OM before the divorce.

I would like to mention that "Plan B" is not the same as "180." 180 is not from this site, and it includes several behaviors that Dr. Harley says will hurt your marriage, not help.

We do not recommend the 180 here.

Meanwhile, Plan B is something different. You need to be careful to understand these tools before using them. Moving back and forth in and out of Plan B is not recommended.

The point of the 180 is to somehow win your wife back by showing her how detached you are from her.

That is not the point of Plan B at all. The point of Plan B is to preserve your emotional and physical health from the damage your wayward spouse is inflicting on it.

If you want to win your wife back, neither the 180 nor Plan B will work. You will have to use Plan A.

I think the sense of the above posters is that it will be too rough on you to try to win this woman back, as, with her history of affairs, she may be unwinnable.

If you want to keep trying to win her, some of us will see what we can do to support you in that, but it's going to start by telling you to step away from the "180," since it doesn't work. And the next step is going to be to slow down, calm down, and start thinking strategically as well as reading and understanding the material on this site. For example, reading and understanding the Love Bank will show you why the 180 won't win a wife, and what it will take to win her.

Tell your daughter who the OM is. She needs to be able to protect herself from him. If he has no regard for marriage vows, there's a better than average chance he has no regard for anti-child molestation laws, either.

I would tell the daughter the name of her enemy so she knows who to watch out for. She has every right to know the name of the rat who did this to her family.


My suggestion would be to try Marriage Builders. The 180 and "Not Just Friends" dont have an effective plan. Your wife is ALREADY DETACHED so the 180 will make the situation WORSE, not better. And I would not go into Plan B. You are in a better position if you compete with the OM while you maintain legal protection. You are in a better position to win than the OM.

That being said, Harley says if the affair has gone on for 2 years that it is usually hopeless. How long has the affair gone on?

Thank you all for your replies. I started the 180 and filed because she was detached, and my "nice" attempts got no response. I hadn't read much here unfortunately, that is why I asked on the forum. I am doing the 180 not to win her back, I am doing for the same reason as plan B, to prepare myself for being single unless she decides to turn around. Now I am in the D process, and feeling like i want it to work.
Maybe I'm kidding myself and it won't work, but I also do not want to be a doormat and pretend any issues I brought to the marriage are all that matters (ie she blames me for her affair) She also hasn't opened up to me and blames me for this as well, and has let the fairy tale idea of marriage and men as mind readers dictate her feelings about us.

I am really trying to keep my family together - yes we had issues, but we are textbook young divorcees with very solvable issues.

the EA started a week into her vacation (before I got there) platonic old friend from summers, then got intense when she initiated and he went in for the kill. He's divorced, single dad with a 10 yo who was great friends with my daughter. I had this happen via email in front of me while drinking beers, boating, swimming and hanging out with OM and our families, wedding bands on. I saw her fog steadily increase and she asked I not talk about her wanting a separation on vacation. He was the one who was the shoulder to cry on and supported her decision for a D.

I tried to "nice" her from moving out, but she pushed until we had a fight about it, then justified moving out.

that was before I found the evidence. She got infuriated that I outed her. I sent some very nice Plan A style emails, a NC request etc. but she got mad. She then said she really liked all my nice talk, but never responded, that's when I decided on the 180 and filing. I wish I had researched this site more prior to my plan, but that's life! My last talk was about how I have realized my contributions to the marriage getting to the point where she would stray, and have been working on myself since (180). Now I'm second guessing the 180 and divorce, my daughters grades are slipping, I can't stand not seeing her everyday and want to make sure I've put 110% into saving this before the divorce is signed.

I'd like her to read stats on divorced families but she just doesn't want to. I feel like sending Surviving as a gift and a written letter about why I want to be married to her, why I love her and why I want my daughters Mom in her life, with me. I also don't want to minimze the A, or let her have contact with OM, which will be tough, he's the summer cabin neighbor, and 5 years younger than us.

I understand that. I was blindsided by this, then found out about the A, then was trying to work out a plan on the fly. I will see her next week at our daughter's conference night for school (if she shows) and then at a wedding the next night. I'm thinking of staying "detached" through all that, I don't think she "gets" how the divorce will affect us, our daughter, and those around us for years to come. She is in selfish mode. IDK if it will pass, if this is the real her or if she's still in the fog. I have no way to know if OM is still emailing or not (I'm assuming he is) but he is 1500 miles away.

started just after I got up to vacation around the 4 of July. I noticed it was awkward some nights around him but didn't confront since I had no evidence. and was on my best behavior for her family. Feel so used for the last couple years. I've been supporting her yoga training, being the breadwinner even though we really needed 2 incomes. She left, got a job, a new phone (duh) and when her car died her parents helped her buy a 2012 honda (we've never had money for new cars). They support her no matter what, and have minimized the A, essentially making it my fault she "had" to have one

Skaterdad, your best bet will come from sticking to a Plan A and competing with the OM. You have a competitive advantage over him in that you are the father of her children. Additionally, this guy is a selfish rat who will dump her when he tires of her. Just think, this is the kind of man who would have an affair with a married woman. He obviously has no respect for marriage and will have no more respect for his relationship with your wife.

I would suggest you stop talking to her about divorce stats, etc and focus on being more pleasant than the OM. The OM doesn't lecture her with divorce stats, I assure you. You have to treat her like a drug addict who uses no logic and reason and attract her by being nice.

Affairs crumble within 2 years and as her crumbles, she will begin to view you as the better choice. Give it 2 years, though, and you will probably win.

It won't be long now before she starts having problems in her affair. If you are around she will start coming to you with those problems.

EXACTLY what have they been told about the affair and who told them?

I told them, she's having an affair with OM, has plane tickets and a hotel to visit. I love her and want to make it work. ( in more words) She has told them god knows what. living on resent from past arguments, her wishing I was a mind reader when our daughter was born, not asking me for enough etc. She told me there are other people out there that are nicer. ha. She also made every WS excuse about how I talk, stand, controlling, mean, she wants to be free, follow her path, knows it sounds selfish etc.

She has also told me her fam is sick of "my" bs and outing her made them all mad at me. but i can't believe any of what she's said. She did send me emails about "nature" telling her we're over and she doesn't want to have sex with me, but loves me and wants to be my friend and co parent. This is why I did the 180 - for me. I've lost 25 lbs already and have been doing all the things I did before we met.

just tonight though, my daughter was talking about how she loves to be home, loves her room, and I mentioned it won't be how it was when she referred to mom. She said I don't get it, she keeps telling me she loves you. the I love u but not in love bs is what i got. fog. So, now that i filed, and have been NC, can I go back to plan A? Without looking like a flip flopping fool? or being a doormat for her to minimize? I moved her stuff out, changed the locks, but she has a ton of stuff here and is living at her parent rent free. There's a HUGE history with her mom and step dad (adopted) and her real dad being thrown out when she was 2. the MIL has always talked about divorcing the new dad, but 30 yrs later he's still there. When I outed to him he wouldn't get involved, and said he had his own marital issues.

Either I'm having a tough time detaching and realizing it's over, or I'm confused that my gut says its not over. The same feeling I got when I hacked her email to get the evidence. My therapist says teh OM is "geographically unavailable" although he has money to spend on plane tickets. he also said by the time she realizes what a POS he is, I may not want her back. I feel like I should have let her file now, but I'm not living on my past decisions, it's going day by day now.

Have you exposed the affair to the OM's parents? Have you personally verified that the OM is single? I find it very odd that if the OM is single that they wouldn't have a plan in place to move in together.

Does the OM have a facebook page?

And Plan A is not about being a doormat. It is about being pleasant while you are being strategic. You very much need to be in Plan A and have a great chance at saving your marriage if you play this right.

You have a huge advantage because the OM is far away.

yes to OM's parents, who i was talking about moving to FL so they can enjoy life (where we live) my W since we returned was "life planning" with OM, trying to find him a job, talking kids, moving in etc. high school sappy. They wanted to get teh girls together as sisters - i cant imagine the resentment my daughter would hold against him knowing her friends dad made her parents split. If we do divorce she will see the OM and daughter next summer on vacation, even possibly if we don't. the W family thinks this guy is great, although he's a jock drunk that is all about "man" stuff they despised me for, except no substance. I'm a creative artist, like my W, snowboard, skate, outdoors, adventure, love mountains. This guys hates ALL of it, and wants to move to FL to golf and boat. and drink.

my W and I share all those in common, and had been talking about leaving FL for VT so we could be back in a 4 season environment and snowboard days before she left on vacation. I am about to refi the house and the plan was to put it in our names, and then rent it or keep a vacation home and build on my parents property.
all out the window now. I filed so if I refi and the house is in my name she can't take it. had to protect myself.

What did the OM's parents tell you about the affair? What is their opinion?

And does the OM have a facebook page? What does he do?

Did you tell your daughter the OM's name?

Can you also drag the divorce out?

Om's dad said he would talk to him, and that he was at camp with him the weekend he was to fly in, so I stopped the PA (unless it happened before I got there, but the emails didn't escalate until after i was there in their timeline)

OM has a FB page. I think they actually use linked in, as my W hasn't approved me on there? odd since she still lists me as her husband on FB, and on her etsy page she's married etc. she just posted to a random yoga friend about the divorce last night. firstI've seen of it, and I refrained from blowing it out on FB.

EDIT; he's an insurance adjuster/hospital admin. basically moves out people who's insurance doesn't pay as much, and runs a staff. makes good money, but is a scumbag. youngest of the fam, gets what he wants, snotty brat and his nickname/initials match. She's prob one of a few he's got on the line, he travels for business, talked about "a few more letters after my name" crap, single guy with good money around nurse all day and traveling. yep, great guy.

haven't told the daughter who the OM actually is yet. This may backfire on me.

I can drag out the divorce, I already told the lawyer the situation, he almost laughed and asked why doesn't she work for you (creative services, she has a Graphic design degree) and teach yoga on the side? (she got certified a couple months before this EA) and said most women come in here looking to D their H over this crap, why would she walk away?

so issues of arguments, her past EA not being dealt with properly, resentment she won't let go and a new "love" have compounded this. I am prepared for the D, but really want to leave no stone unturned to save my marriage and my daughters future. I have told her I am willing to work on anything that I may have done to facilitate this and that I want to be the best husband and father i can, knowing where I've failed, and stepping up. She says great, someone will be happy, you should go find a better person to love you.... (not the first I have heard it or about her wanting a D)

If so, I would send PMs to all his facebook friends exposing the affair. There are templates in the exposure thread in my signature you can use. Your best bet is to cause as much grief as possible for the OM and RUN HIM OFF. OM are cowards who don't want any trouble.


Your daughter needs to be told the entire truth. It will backfire on HER if you don't. She needs to know who the enemy of her family is so she can be prepared in case your wife brings him around her. And she needs to be asking her mother hard questions about why she would wreck her family over this loser.

Tell your daughter the truth! How else will she know who the bad guy is?

Giving her the full name of the OM will also make it harder for your wife to bring this creepo around.