Thanks for pointing that out. Friends and family approval is nice to have, but you�re right about first-hand experiences that take time to evaluate.


It was hard for me too when we first met each other. 2 months later, however, I'm very comfortable with it, and she has always seemed comfortable with it. I can�t explain it, but it seems to be working out pretty well so far.


Ha! Let me put it this way. She IS a chemist, and she�s very good at chemistry

We�ve had some good discussions about sex, and she even listened to Dr. Harley�s radio response to the question on pre-marital sex I sent in a while ago. She�s very open, and the concept of radical honesty is easy with her. We talk openly and comfortably about our sexual histories, something I�ve never been able to do before in any relationship. It�s refreshing to have that level of vulnerability and trust.

I have thought about these things, even before I met R. I have no plans to retire anytime soon. I hope to work at least until I�m 70, longer if I feel like it. The word "retire" is something I don't even like; it makes it sound like I'm getting old.

The thought of enjoying golden years I guess is different for different people. I like my current life. I like my job, I like involvement in the sport of triathlon, both as a coach and an athlete, I like where I live, I like my dogs, I like my hobbies, I like my new girlfriend, I can�t think of anything I�d change right now, and as long as I enjoy it, I want to keep doing it.

I can picture myself continuing to live this way for a long time. My stepdad is somewhat of a role model for me. He�s an attorney, 83, and still works full time! I think it would be awesome to be working that late in life. If my employer will allow it and I still like my job, I don't see any reason to not keep working.


What if you did the �date 30 people� routine and accidentally met someone outside your age range who seemed unbelievably better than anyone else you had ever met before. Would you turn him down?


I agree with everyone who has pointed this out, and both my girlfriend and I have recognized this on our own. Do you think it�s a bad idea to allow a relationship to develop too fast?

I know, anything�s possible. I could be hit by a car anytime I venture out on the roads on my bike. Or a stroke could paralyze me at any moment. There are numerous things that could derail my aspirations.

But I try to focus on the positive, not the negative. I wouldn�t use the possibility of a negative as a reason to avoid this relationship. One of those negatives could happen in any relationship.


I�m lifting these out of context, but they strike me as contradictory. Are you saying that in general it�s ok to let a relationship go fast, but for me in particular, you think I should slow down?


I appreciate both of your words of wisdom, as well as the words of other posters. When I think of validating a relationhip through friends and family, �friends� includes the people I�ve met here.

I love how posting to others can make me really analyse my responses and thoughts... thanks KL.

The thing I keep coming back to is boundaries and logic. Both crucial to MB. When we set our boundaries, they are based on logic. Sometimes, our feelings step in, and encourage us to change our boundaries. IMO... this is not based on logic, and is very similar to the slippery slope the wayward experiences in the lead up to the A. Once LB$ are being made, everything logical goes out the window. This is also why I have seen some people repeatedly enter flawed relationships... they are too busy "feeling" this is the right one, rather then weighing it up.

So yes... I would turn him down. Actually, I don't know that I would have allowed LB$ to be made in the first place with someone outside my age range. I have successfully managed to get through over a year of seperation from my WH, and largely avoided the attempts of others to make LB$ at a time I am VERY vulnerable. I hope this bodes well for me entering the world of dating after my D.

Logically, I know in years to come, an age gap such as this would make the man hard pressed to meet my EN's.

I think ALL relationships experience that heedy feeling of love, the honeymoon phase, limerance, whatever you want to call it. Without it... why would we continue to see someone we have only recently included as part of our lives?

So yes, I personally think it is a bad idea to let a relationship develop too fast. No matter if this relationship seems the most natural and possibly the best that you have had in your lifetime. Because in the early stages of a relationship (and yes, after 2 months, you are in the early stages) your relationship and even your knowledge of this person has not stood the test of time.

What is your rush KL?

I have to say this, having followed your threads on MB. It seems you are desperate for someone to meet your EN's, and for you to meet someone elses. It has only been three months since MB posters were last convincing you that you rushed into an inappropriate relationship whilst still M... and here we are again, only two months since you split from this woman?

Is this a pattern?

Ooh boy, I really feel like I am raining on your parade. Still, I hope others do this to me as well, when I start dating. I hope you take this critique in that spirit.

BTW, I'm not sure if you have mentioned this..

But does R have children?

If not, does she want them?

I still stand by all my original comments ... you are not honest with yourself and the justifications and rationalizations of your "new relationship" is alarming.

A man who was married for 20 years, jumps into new relationship (while still married) with a woman he then spends another 2+ years with, was on his own for only two months, and is now in another relationship with a woman 20 years younger screams

The only advice I still suggest is to read HNHN along with Lovebusters. Take at least two years off from any and all relationships that will do needs meeting to heal yourself from the first 20, then the last 3 years.

The issue when you go to a new relationship is you have an additional layer of honesty that has to be brought in and it has to be shared early with the other person to give them the opportunity to make honest decisions about their lives.

It is wrong to hold your baggage as your own little secret until you have wooed the new partner to the point of commitment and/or love. This is what waywards do when they move on to a new relationship without dealing with the first mess they created.

This is why dating many is important. It gives you the opportunity to learn other's baggage so you can make honest decisions about your life.

I believe you still struggle with full out radical honesty, and the justifications you make to legitimize this new relationship suggests something is not quite right (or honest). In the end no matter how much this new person meets your emotional need, this is a lovebuster that will doom the relationship.

There's "fast" and there's "too fast" . "Fast" is when you are excited about the other person, and can't wait to see them more and more and get to know them. "Too fast" is when you still barely know the person but are already mentally picking out curtains. I feel like you have moved into the latter category, but that's just from what I am reading here.

Why are you trying to get so entangled so quickly? Why not wait a few months before meeting the parents, and basically acting like you are practically engaged? That's all I am asking, I am just not understanding the reason for short-circuiting the observation process, and jumping right into the "as-if" behavior.

AGG

I don�t feel that I�m in a rush, but from your question and some others� posts, I can see that I�m coming across that way. In an earlier post on this thread, I described that this relationship feels like it has a life of its own. I don�t feel that I�m rushing, and I�m also not trying to put the brakes on. I�m letting it proceed at its own pace, which apparently seems too fast to outsiders.

If I don�t feel that I�m rushing things, I wonder if your advice would be that I should actively try to slow the relationship down. My response would then be, �Why? What�s wrong with letting things proceed at their own pace.� Is this your own opinion? Are there MB articles or radio clips you know of that address the pace of relationships? I�d be interested in them if there are.

The picture I have of this relationship is water flowing downhill. I'm not pushing it down the hill, it's being pulled by gravity. I'm also not trying to slow it down by putting up dams. I'm allowing nature to take its course, and I like the way that feels.


I don�t feel �desperate.� I do enjoying being in a relationship, but I don�t feel desperate to be in one. Before meeting R, I was happy being single and not looking to meet anyone. The way I met her was completely accidental. Does the fact that I didn�t turn down the opportunity to meet her when the opportunity arose suggest that I�m desperate?

As far as being a pattern, from my dating history, I know that if I date a woman once or twice and there�s no chemisty, I�m not desperate to keep it going just because I need to be in a relationship. But if there IS chemistry, and she feels it too, then I like to let the relationship develop.

As far as too fast, I�m probably not a �bell curve� kind of person when it comes to dropping emotional walls. I like the feeling of vulnerability that comes with emotional transparency, even if it sets me up for heartbreak later on. For me, the best way to experience love is to make myself vulnerable to heartbreak; only then can I experience the fullest that love has to offer. But that�s just me. I know others would rather drop their emotional walls slower in order to protect themselves from emotional hurt. Could this be why you think I�m going too fast?


Absolutely!! I like the probing that you and others are doing. I think it�s healthy. Although I feel that I�m doing what�s right for me, defending my position forces me to think about it; and the effect of that is validation. If I was doubting myself while trying to answer your questions, I would feel less secure about my feelings.

Don�t worry about raining on my parade. Probe away!!

She doesn�t have children (has not been married either), and at this point she doesn�t want any. She does, however, have a dog, two cats, and a horse, which take up a good amount of time, although not as much as kids.

I recognize that a woman can change her mind about kids, and I�ve already decided, even before I met her, that if I ever met a woman who was marriage material and wanted to have kids, I would be happy to support her in that. I wish I had had more kids in my first marriage, and I�d be happy to have more.

If I didn�t mention it earlier, my sister and step-brother had a child when she was 49 and he was 60, and they are role models for me if I ever find myself in that situation. He�s now 5, and they can�t imagine life without him.

According to your definitions, I�m definitely in the �fast� category. What have you read here that makes you think I�m in the �too fast� category? The only thing I can think of is meeting her parents. She invited me to Thanksgiving with her family. Other than wondering how her parents might feel about an older guy dating their daughter (and she convinced me that they�re fine with that), I didn�t feel any reason not to accept her invitation, and now I�m really looking forward to it. I can�t imagine we won�t have a lot of fun. I know there will be some aspect of her parents checking me out, but I don�t have a problem with that. If it ends up that her parents don�t approve of me, I�d rather find that out sooner than later.


Ok, I think I see the difference here. You take meeting her parents as acting as if we�re practically engaged. I don�t take it that way. She has communicated to her parents that she�s in a nice relationship. Her mom in particular is happy for her and wants to meet me. I like this woman, I like learning about her, and meeting her parents is another way to find out more about her. I don�t feel that I�m short-circuiting the observation process; I feel that meeting her parents is a way to enhance the observation process. Learning about a person�s family, I think, is a great way to learn about the person.

Putting the shoe on the other foot, so to speak, if my daughter met someone she really liked, I would be anxious to meet him. I wouldn�t assume that just because she invited him to Thanksgiving to meet me, they�re practically engaged. Perhaps there are cultural differences between the way you and I view meeting parents?

Well... there's meeting the parents and then there's "meeting the parents." I met my girlfriend's father almost a month ago at the one and a half month mark. It was casual; he was in town and I spent a day with him and A's family. I have not met her brother, mother and extended family as of yet. I understand where you're coming from and I think it largely depends on the intent of the meeting, something that may not be easily perceivable. Casual lunch or something along those lines is a far cry from going over to Thanksgiving dinner, a event that oozes in familial tradition and meaning. The former goes along with your intent I think but the latter may have a certain meaning to her family that you may not be aware of. Or... it could be as innocuous as it seems to you. Hard to say from the far reaches of the internet.

Travis

I guess that is my point. Relationships do not have a "life" of their own. YOU give them a life and a pace - you can choose to see the person casually, 1-2 times a week, slowly getting to know them in the process. Or you can go "all in", talk to them daily for hours, spend every weekend with them, basically build your life around them. But it is your choice, not the relationship's choice; a relationship cannot "take" you anywhere, it's your bus that you are driving. Like a fine wine, some things need time.

Just be careful when you start throwing out the window those things you might have espoused before meeting the person (no sex before marriage?), that's a sure sign of going too fast.

AGG

Good point. In our situation, both of our sets of parents live far enough away, that it�s not very practical to visit them solely for the purpose of �meeting the parents.� About the only time either of us visits our respective parents is for holidays. If we set up a visit to either of our parents on a non-holiday weekend, that would definitely feel like �meeting the parents.�

This visit feels more like the unquoted kind of meeting the parents, although I�m sure there will be some of the quoted kind going on as well, subliminally; I don�t think that can be avoided.

I partially agree with that. I think relationships DO have a life of their own in a certain sense, and I think I have SOME choice in where it heads but not complete choice.

I think there are three entities in a relationship: me, her, and the relationship itself. I have complete choice in what I do, she has complete choice in what she does, but we each only have 50% choice in where the relationship goes. So while I may exert some influence on where the relationship goes, it doesn�t always go exactly where I want it to go because there�s another person influencing it as well. It�s the sense of not going exactly where I want it to go that gives it the quality that I�m describing as having a life of its own.


In Lamby's thread on pre-marital sex, I didn�t intend to come across as holding to that value. I�m open to changing my beliefs if someone gives me good reasons to. I was interested in hearing Dr. Harley�s views on the subject, in particular how he related sex before marriage to living together before marriage. If he had presented an argument against pre-marital sex as convincing as the one against pre-marital cohabitation, I would�ve taken notice. He did present some arguments against pre-marital sex, but not enough for me to change my beliefs.

Regarding going too fast, I feel comfortable with the pace of this relationship, but you and others are cautioning that I�m going too fast. Assuming that I am and just don�t recognize it, what is wrong with going too fast? Are there specific dangers I should be aware of?


From an earlier post,

I can�t remember, but do you have kids? Any daughters? If not, can you imagine having a daughter who told you she met someone really nice who seemed to good to be true? Wouldn�t you want to meet the guy before she became entrenched in a relationship with him so that if you saw something wrong, you could talk with her about it?

Why do you think meeting parents is not a good idea at this point?

KL, I thought my fiancee was a potential keeper and introduced him to my family and met his the second month. Like the others I think it's a cultural thing. We are both really close to our families, see them every week or two, so if there are any problems there it'd be important to know that up front. His mom passed away unexpectedly, when we had been dating 6 months, so I'm glad we met and she gave her approval before it was too late.

It's hard to say, since I have no idea how often you see her, how much time you spend together, etc. Perhaps I am just getting the wrong impression here. But the impression I am getting is that you are smitten (fine), are enjoying getting to know her (great), and are spending most of your free time with her (that would be the concern).

I can't tell you what the danger is, there may not be any danger. I just am getting a bad vibe, that's all.


Depends... My daughter is 17, so yes, if this happened today I'd definitely want to meet the boy. But for a woman who is an adult, I am not sure that she should need her parents' input, and I would hope that as a parent I would have the confidence in her to not have to check out every person she has a relationship with.

There is nothing wrong with meeting the parents.. but I feel that a Thanksgiving dinner with them at this point is premature.

One thing I noticed in your posts here is that you try to think, analyze, and understand, and I encourage that. But I've also seen you try to rationalize away red flags, and that is the concern that I have with you sometimes, that you may be rationalizing things away just to support what you were going to do anyway .

Like I said, this is all just my gut feel based on what you posted, it is not anything I can point to and say "A-ha!". Just trying to look out for you.

AGG

Really, KL?

You previously wrote..."I like the feeling of vulnerability that comes with emotional transparency, even if it sets me up for heartbreak later on. For me, the best way to experience love is to make myself vulnerable to heartbreak; only then can I experience the fullest that love has to offer. But that�s just me. I know others would rather drop their emotional walls slower in order to protect themselves from emotional hurt. Could this be why you think I�m going too fast?"

You seem to want to throw caution to the wind even if you end up smashed into a brick wall later. I do not see the sense in this...especially considering all the cruddy reasons we found MB in the first place. I get that a relationship is exciting, thrilling, etc...IT SHOULD BE...but that doesn't mean you can't slow down and enjoy the ride either. If R or any woman ends up being the "right" person for you, then she wouldn't be going anywhere. Meeting her parents at Thanksgiving...may not be a big deal...it's the overall picture that is a concern.

You've gone from you really like R to now talking about love and making yourself vulnerable to another. Hmmmmmmmm.....

x 2


Yep.

Interesting about the vibe. There must be something I�ve written that gives you that vibe because we've had no other communication besides this forum. (Unless you have paranormal powers, and I�m not saying that jokingly because although I don�t have them, I know some people who seem to be unusually perceptive.)

When you say that you have no idea how often I see her nor how much time we spend together, how do you get the impression that I�m spending most of my free time with her? I don�t get it. Seriously, what gives you that impression? It's gotta be something I wrote. (Unless you're unusually perceptive.)


Me too, but if my daughter expressed to me that she had met someone who seemed nicer than anyone she had met before, I�d be interested in meeting him no matter how old she was.


This is interesting too, and I appreciate your perspective. It doesn�t feel like rationalizing to me, but it�s good to hear another�s perspective even if it doesn't agree with my own. What it feels like to me is questioning the advice I get to understand the why�s behind it. Maybe it�s because I DO tend to over-analyze that makes it seem as if I�m challenging, rationalizing.

During the Dating too soon thread, I was in the middle of an intense internal conflict. My mind was telling me to leave a relationship, while my heart was telling me to stay. It took a good 6 months to resolve the conflict, and that timespan would�ve undoubtedly been longer without the support I received here; and a lot of it, as I remember, was from you. That�s an example of a case where it may have appeared that I was trying to rationalize, but in reality, I was looking for help in grappling with an extremely difficult problem. It took time, but I eventually agreed with you.

I started this thread because I was initially uncertain about the age-disparate relationship I found myself getting into. Some posters felt that age wasn�t that important, but I think the majority felt that the age difference was significant and too large. Again, I may have come across as rationalizing my choice, but I was simply looking for advice from others who are or have been in age-disparate relationships. When people started challenging my relationship, I challenged back trying to understand the why�s of their opinions. It was Dr. Harley�s radio clips posted by BrainHurts and HDW that convinced me I was ok in this relationship, especially given that health and fitness are a major part of who I am regardless of my relationship status.

You are one of the detractors of the 24-year age difference. Is this age difference one of the red flags you�re referring to? Do you think it�s inherently a bad idea, or, as with pre-marital sex, do you think it�s a matter of individual opinion where what�s wrong for one couple can be right for another?

This thread then evolved into a discussion of whether or not my current relationship is going too fast. Before you and a few others raised the issue, I was comfortable with the pace of the relationship and never intended to bring it up on this forum. I�m still comfortable with the pace, but I�m interested to understand others� points of view and why they think that way; I don�t feel that I�m rationalizing, just trying to understand.

This is a case where I didn�t ask for opinions, and until I can get some clear advice on why I should slow things down, I don�t see a reason to change anything. In this case, I agree that the relationship pace I have IS what I was going to do anyways, so maybe you view my questions as rationalizing a red flag? I believe the pace is ok, but I�m willing to be convinced otherwise if someone has some solid reasons to change my mind. This is the same way I felt when I asked about pre-marital sex; holding to a belief, but open to change.


I value your thoughts a lot, and I don�t want to turn you off by a lot of analysis. If what I wrote is too over-analytical, tell me to turn it down a notch and I will

Ok, I can see that you would say heartbreak is one of the dangers. And I AM aware of that. I recognize heartbreak is a danger of exposing myself emotionally, and I�ve accepted the risk. I was heartbroken when I broke up with S back in July. It took me a month before I could stop thinking about her a lot, and I still think about her from time to time, realizing that we had the nuts and bolts for a very nice relationship.

But as heartbroken as I was, I got over it. And I�m ok now. If my current relationship ends in heartbreak, I�ll get over that too. It�s a risk I�m willing to take because I like the emotional transparency that I experience while the relationship endures. There are pros and cons, and some are not willing to take that risk. That�s ok for them, just as taking that risk is ok for me.

If you are someone who�s unwilling to risk broken-heartedness, I can understand how you see me as throwing caution to the wind, but it�s an informed decision I�m making. If my current relationship ends in heartbreak, you can tell me you told me so, and you�ll be right. But I won�t regret making the decision, just as I don�t regret the relationship I had with S. With failure comes knowledge (hopefully )

I guess I should re-phrase my question: �Other than the risk of a broken heart, are there specific dangers I should be aware of?�


One of the things I really like about R is that vulnerability with her is very easy. In addition to how I feel when I�m with her, the ease of vulnerability is one of the best things I like about her.