SugerCane

I did have sexual intercourse after I moved out of the house. What RQ wanted to know is if I had sexual intercourse before I moved out. He never asked me that. He kept asking if we had any sexual contact. I asked him to ask me that but he wanted it to ask if I had any sexual contact.

KISS

Littlebit3,

I want to be the husband my wife deserves. I want to take care of her. RQ has delt with so much suffering because of my stupidity. I am hoping that she wants to stay because she knows that we could be great and that I am going to but all my efforts into being that man that she deserves. I know I need to lead the healing process but I can't lead her recovery until I change and recover myself. I believe that I am changing. I'm listening to the radio broadcast everyday, posting giving my honest thoughts (even though they might not be correct)and trying to read when I can also. I do realize that I post a lot about "me" everything I post about what I am feeling is due to the damage I have caused my RQ. She is so much stronger then I am. Being on this side of the cause of the pain is very emotional and so hard. I couldn't image being on the undeserving recieving end of a cheating spouses indescretions and selfishness.

You are absolutely right words are cheap. Habits and fears shape my actions as I am working on a routen to make MB a part of how I act and think everyday. Im working on my EP'sas I am trying to learn how to interact and avoid situations with females. It is something I must keep reminding myself what would RQ think about this conversation or what would she think of this situation. I must change my habits. I watch other interactions with married men and other females. Or vise versa. Its amazing how many people lack EP's. No wonder why Dr. Harley says that 60% of marriages end up with at least one sppouse having an affair.

The fear part of it is hard for me. I need to be doing this because I need to "fix" myself not because of the fear of losing my RQ. I have realized that either way its going to make me a better and stronger person.

P.S. I do cry alot.

kiss, As I read your response, I think the me, me, me and all about you, you, you, was more from the time you were posting when you and RQ were attempting recovery, before she stopped posting. Some lately, but I have seen a shift in you attempting to be more open, and at least articulating a little more of what we should have been hearing while you were trying to recover.

You know kiss, we all have fears. If you let them, fears can destroy everything. For that to happen, you have to let it. If you really think about it, what is so darn scarry that you would rather have let your life, morals and character go to he77 and a handbasket just to avoid dealing with and overcoming it? What could possibly be that bad? Regardless of what is it or when it is from, it will not ever or justify your choices to turn outside of your marriage. Fears from our childhood, grow and morph into something that now, you won't even recognize and was never big to begin with. If you looked at it from your adult perspective now, you would say, that's nothing. I have heard it from people that have overcome abuse, sexual abuse, that the worst has already happened to them. They don't want something in their past to control anything in their future. So, if they can get there, so can you. Face it. Own it. It can't hurt you now.

You don't have anything to prove. You don't have to protect yourself from your RQ in the ways you have kept your armour on. Your disconnect is probably a huge factor in your being lonely. You have just chosen to blame others. Seeking attention that feels good from OW, smiles, obvious responses from them that tell you they think you look good or are interested in you, is you attempting to fill your holes with self-serving instant gratifying, fantasy.

Many of us didn't understand that in the infatuation stage, you didn't have to do any work, it was easy, fun and felt amazing, Then, that wears off, and are left with the not so fun part. Then, the real work begins to nurture and grow the relationship INTO what it can become. It ain't gonna get there by itself.

You do need to keep working on you, breaking down your fears and walls. You should just be happy with who you are. Clean up your side of the street, do the right thing by people, be that man you look up to others for being. You can do that you know, no one can stop you, but yourself (fears.) It seems that RQ, saw past some of your "walls" and still loved you for who you were, and you threw that away b/c you were too scared to see what a beautiful gift that was.

What are those fears that shape and guide you? What can it/they do to you right now?

The more you practice selflessness, the better you will get at it. I don't mind missing a show I like to watch to be with or help my children. I could have much more down time if I didn't volunteer at Church or at school helping the children read. I don't focus on what I can't do, or what I am missing or get angry that I can't do what I want b/c... Really, kiss, it isn't just about you. It is about what the other side of your marriage has always needed. RQ had many needs that I am sure you didn't meet. Was she supposed to take on the "kiss" entitlement and have them met outside the marriage? Think about the liberties you took at RQ's expense. Think about how entitled you truly must have thought you were. Why? How did you ever let yourself fall to that mindset? Just some questions for you.

Littlebit,
With all due respect, fear isn't the "why" in any Waywards adulterous choices.

In a marriage we can either choose what is right or choose what is easy. Easy is always a declining path.

Marriage Builders starts us down a path with a goal in mind.
It's a narrow path.
It's the right path.
Although it's a simple path, it's definitely not an easy one.

My first goal was to learn how to repair the damage I created so that our marriage could have a chance of reaching the next goal; learning how to fall in love and stay in love.

I never looked to my past for answers about how to move forward. I always looked at what I was currently doing and asking my wife if my actions were meeting her needs the way she liked them met. If not, then I improved my actions based on her replies and her needs......

Once my wife was through the trauma mode of my affair (time is different for everyone), she was able to recipricate by using the same processes I had implemented, the ones Dr. H outlines in all his books.

Kiss must read and learn everything he possibly can from Dr. Harley that will help him to help his wife through her trauma, regardless of whether she decides to stay married or not. He has this time available right now, lets see what he does with it. Personally, I'm still not impressed....

I'm doubtful that Kiss even understands that RQ's recovery clock goes back to zero every time a new piece of information about his adultery is discovered... Kiss has chosen to give her a death of a thousand cuts with all his trickle truth... And I'm still not sure all the truth is out yet.

tick, tock.....

1. Did you have sexual intercourse with her before you moved out?

2. Does your wife know about the sexual intercourse after you moved out? (I take it she does, but I don't have time right now to read back through her thread).

HerPapaBear,

I am moving past the fear and trying just to learn as much as I can. I have listened to the radio show everyday ever since Indiegirl asked me to everyday and post on my thread what I had learned that day and what was brought up that day. I have been on my thread constantly answering every question and saying how I think or what I'm feeling no matter how much I get called out. But that's what its about trying to get the guidance and directed down the proper path of self recovery.


I'm also reading surviving an affair. I should be done reading it over the next couple of days. I have the His needs Her needs on audio and I have listened to it a couple of times. what should I read next? I know I need to go back through my thread and answer all the unanswered questions that is definitely something I want to start doing soon .


RQ does have all the details of my affair. I realize the amount of pain I have put her through and the false recovery we went through. I was stupid and selfish for not telling her everything in March when we started our recovery. The trickle truth is devastating and has hit the restart button on our recovery.


KISS

SugarCane,

I didn't have sexual intercourse until I moved out. RQ does know that and shehad known before we started on our false recovery in March.

KISS

I don't know that it much matters WHEN you had sexual intercourse(BTW, OS IS Sexual intercourse), the fact is YOU ARE STILL MARRIED. The fact that you waited until you were asked to leave the home, by your wife, doesn't make it right. While you should most definitely be focusing on fixing yourself, you should also be understanding that you are extremely focused on YOU. I would suggest that every time you are about to write the words I or ME, that you think about your thought process, and what is behind that response. You need to be extremely honest with YOURSELF first.

WE see through your posts, no matter how much you think about exactly how to word it so we won't see into it, we will. And STOP focusing on what RQ is or hasn't done. Right now, you need to read, listen and post about YOUR shortcomings, and where YOU need to improve.

Thank you HerPapaBear. You said it so much better than I could. My thought was to try to get him to understand that while things in childhood can happen to hurt us, cause fears and those fears shape us, that he should not continue to let those fears guide him. When people are shaped by those and guided by those it makes them very selfish. So, I was trying to get across that while some people know, most people are running from their fears, and don't know it. I know that when I finally understood the fears shaping and guiding aspect, it explained a LOT!!! Doesn't give him any excuses though!!!

So, between you and Scotland, you BOTH just explained what I was trying to say.

kiss, keep on. No wool over eyes or half-effort. This stuff you need to realize, own, face, work your booty off to overcome IS GOING TO BE HARD!!! You have gotten away with a very selfish mentality for waaayyy to long. So, keep working on everything, but don't ever forget that it is never just about you and how you feel. RQ and your children have their own personal feelings and needs that have to be met too. It is a fine balance trying to meet everyone's needs in the right ways. It should take most of your time. It is a lot of choosing them, their needs over our own. We are supposed to choose to give up those things that are not for the betterment of the family. We should gladly do that. That doesn't mean you can't have your own personal fulfillment, football game or a party, things you like to do. But, when your kids are little, most of that is put on the back burner for a while.

Scotland,

I know that it doesn't matter because I ended up having sex with her anyway. The issue is that I always told RQ that nothing happened until I moved out. So I put a heavy and undeserving weight on her because she felt that her pushing me out of the house caused the physical part of the affair to escalate. Because I kept telling her that nothing happened up until that point. I didn't realize what I was doing by telling her that. I thought I was protecting her from more pain and saving my self from the embarrassment of showing how big of a scum bag i was being but what I really was doing was dumping all the responsibility on to RQ. I realize now the burden that she has been carrying for all most a year now. RQ has been undeservingly put under a stress that she does not own. i

KISS

I just recieved an email from our mediator that RQ wants a list of my EP's so I figured I should list post them here as well:

My EP's that I have put in place are:

I will not discuss my private matters with woman

I will not have one on one conversations with woman in a secluded are

I will not let anyone have a chance at meeting my top emotional needs except for RQ

I will not go out to Bars or clubs with the guys without my wife

I will call ***EDIT*** every time I'm at work longer then I'm supposed to.

I will make sure I answer everyone of her text messages and phone calls as she is my #1 priority

I will never watch porn or any other inappropriote material



things I have done:

Blocking all communication with Affair Partners (AP�s)

Accounting for all of your time

Accounting for all money

Spending your leisure time with your wife.

blocked OW number from my cell phone

Take a polygraph

Wife has a copy of my car keys

Gave wife access to all cell phone records bank account and email





Things I will do if RQ wants me to sell my car and anything that effected our marriage before in a negative way(KISS pins)





Things i will do always:


EP�s are put into place to protect your spouse.

Protection = Care

EP�s are also designed to ELIMINATE the opportunity to have a secret second life.

A) I will protect my spouse and their feelings above all else.
B) I will not participate in any one-on-one meetings with anyone of the opposite sex.
C) I will not discuss my personal marriage issues with anyone of the opposite sex.
D) I will not attend clubs, strip joints, or any such establishment
E) I agree to use POJA as a basis for all decisions.
F) I will be open and honest with my spouse at all times about the past and present.
G) I will provide my spouse a daily schedule of all appointments and contact information.
H) If I need to make an adjustment to my schedule, I will notify my spouse of the change immediately.
I) I will make my spouse�s phone calls my highest priority by answering them or returning them immediately.
J) I will avoid all chat rooms, porn, member sites, etc.
K) I will trade phones with my spouse at any time they request, NO questions asked.
L) I will leave my phone accessible to my spouse at night/or anytime I�m home.
M) I will commit to at least 15 hours of undivided attention with my spouse to meet each other�s ENs every week (time working together does not count toward those 15 hours).
N) If AP finds a way to make contact, I will immediately end the contact and notify my spouse about it immediately after.
O) I will install a keylogger, GPS, or any other tracking system my spouse may request.
P) Anytime I have the thought, �I don�t want my spouse to know about��.�, I will call my spouse immediately and tell them my thoughts.
Q) Anything else my spouse wants as a boundary.


I wrote some of my own some I took from HerPapaBear's Extraordinary Precautions thread. I have been working on everything on these lists as I want to be the husband my wife wants and deserves. If their is anything that anyone thinks I should add please et me know but I think I have covered everything. HerPapaBear is pretty complete.

THANKS,

KISS

I don't have time to read carefully and comment just now - but please take her real name out!

A couple quick thoughts:


(Just restoring those to their proper perspective.)

You mentioned not viewing porn as an EP. Is this something that has been a problem in the past? Have you watched porn when RQ didn't know about it? What's going on with this? This is a potentially huge roadblock to R and a good M, but I don't remember hearing about it before.

Neak,

It's not been anything that has been an issue before but a friend brought it up as a big issue in their marriage so I added it to my list. Also its something that was in HerPapaBears thread. So I wanted to include everything.

KISS

So you don't actually watch porn then, and RQ has never expressed a problem with it - you're just being thorough?

I have rarely. She has expressed that she has issues with it. Its something I do view as being wrong. It hasn't come up in a long time. probably 7 or 8 years.


KISS

Does that mean she hasn't complained in 7 or 8 years or you haven't viewed any in 7 or 8 years?

Why do you want to wait for RQ to tell you what needs done with the car or the pins?

These are going to be triggers!

Trigger = Source of PAIN

Eliminate all triggers = Eliminate all sources of pain!

You've got to wise up and get rid of these things. NOW!

tick.... tock....

I agree with HPB here. Also anything you used as a "cover up" for the A will be a trigger.

My FWH used his Hobby as a cover for meetings..... IT IS NO LONGER HIS HOBBY!!!

HerPapaBear,

Im off on Thursday and I'm going to see about getting rid of my car. The kiss pins are still at our house so as soon as I could get them I will be listing them on eBay.


KISS