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Hi everyone, This is my first post here. Two years ago My husband found this website and suggested that we try the POJA. I read through the website, and readily agreed to try it. It looked like it would be the solution to all our issues!!! Unfortunately, I found that it made things worse My husband has been diagnosed with Aspergers. And since, from what I can gather, your expectations and needs in a relationship with some one on the autistic spectrum need to change.... Do the same principles apply? Has the POJA taken into account the challenges that mental differences pose on relationships? Or the inability to relate to another persons EN, rather than choosing not to? I know my husband would readily choose to do anything to help our marriage... it doesnt always mean he can... and I can want to accept that all I like... but it doesnt always mean I can... Thanks for reading 
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Hi everyone, This is my first post here. Two years ago My husband found this website and suggested that we try the POJA. I read through the website, and readily agreed to try it. It looked like it would be the solution to all our issues!!! Unfortunately, I found that it made things worse My husband has been diagnosed with Aspergers. And since, from what I can gather, your expectations and needs in a relationship with some one on the autistic spectrum need to change.... Do the same principles apply? Has the POJA taken into account the challenges that mental differences pose on relationships? Or the inability to relate to another persons EN, rather than choosing not to? I know my husband would readily choose to do anything to help our marriage... it doesnt always mean he can... and I can want to accept that all I like... but it doesnt always mean I can... Thanks for reading  Welcome to MB. Here's a clip of Dr. Harley talking with a wife whom thinks her husband has undiagnosed Aspergers. Tell us what you think. Radio clip
FWW/BW (me) WH 2nd M for both Blended Family with 7 kids between us Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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Thank you for the link. Unfortunately I still don't feel that it addresses the issue of whether techniques applied to a "neurotypical" marriage can translate into a mixed neurological marriage. We have been in therapy together and separately for a few months. Married for 4 years (no kids). To be succinct about this, the marriage advice I have been given has either been "Accept, accept, accept" or "Leave, leave, leave". It would be nice if there were some ways to apply the POJA to our marriage without meltdowns and weeks of isolation when things don't go as planned. But thank you again for your time and consideration!!! 
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Unfortunately I still don't feel that it addresses the issue of whether techniques applied to a "neurotypical" marriage can translate into a mixed neurological marriage. Dr Harley says his methods do not work if there is a personality disorder but Aspies do not have personality disorders. We have been in therapy together and separately for a few months. Married for 4 years (no kids). To be succinct about this, the marriage advice I have been given has either been "Accept, accept, accept" or "Leave, leave, leave". Sounds as if you would have been better just setting light to the dollar bills then. It would be nice if there were some ways to apply the POJA to our marriage without meltdowns and weeks of isolation when things don't go as planned. Aspies are not easy to be married to because they lack empathy but this would make using the POJA easier not harder. One of their greatest qualities is their total transparency. Most POJA failures happen because one or both are not being completely honest as they negotiate. I wonder if you are using it correctly? Used right, the POJA should prevent 'surprise' outcomes which could trigger panic in an Aspie. Here is an example; You: The table we have is too small when we have guests to dinner, how would you feel about getting a larger one? Aspie: A different table would bother me. You: I can accept that. Can you think of a way that we might increase the size of our eating space in a way that would not bother you. etc If that ends in a solution, great. I do not see how this would great a meltdown as there would be no 'surprise'. Otherwise the outcome will be no change which should also be very reassuring. I do not see how this is not working for you. Maybe you could give us an example of your use of POJA?
3 adult children Divorced - he was a serial adulterer Now remarried, thank you MB (formerly lied_to_again)
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prevalere, the only advice on this from Dr H that I can find was on the private forum, where a wife believed that her H had Aspergers traits but he was undiagnosed. Dr H doubted that he had Aspergers based on her description, so his advice would not apply to you.
I think that you should write to him at the radio show, because yours is the first case I have come across on this board where the spouse actually has a medical diagnosis. You really should seek advice directly from him on your questions. This is outside the wide range of issues that most of us have encountered on this board.
BW Married 1989 His PA 2003-2006 2 kids.
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Otherwise the outcome will be no change which should also be very reassuring. I do not see how this is not working for you. Maybe you could give us an example of your use of POJA? I see your point, lw. If this poster is following the rules of POJA then meltdowns could never happen, because no decision would ever have been taken unless there was enthusiastic agreement from both spouses. Therefore it sounds as if this poster is cajoling and pushing her H to accept her decisions, or even imposing changes regardless of his opposition because "something must be done", and she is seeing the results of the lack of agreement - as we all do if we make decisions without our spouse's enthusiastic agreement. She might be frustrated, though, because "no change' is not a proper solution to marital problems. It is the temporary position that Dr Harley recommends while positive solutions are brainstormed. Therefore, "no change" would be reassuring to the Aspergers spouse forever, but the non-Aspergers spouse might never be able to achieve a solution to the problem if the affected spouse dislikes change of any kind. You can't solve marital problems by do nothing about them. This must be a great problem for the marriage.
BW Married 1989 His PA 2003-2006 2 kids.
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Otherwise the outcome will be no change which should also be very reassuring. I do not see how this is not working for you. Maybe you could give us an example of your use of POJA? But the "no change' is not a proper solution to marital problems. It is the temporary position that Dr Harley recommends while positive solutions are brainstormed. Therefore, "no change" would be reassuring to the Aspergers spouse forever, but the non-Aspergers spouse might never be able to achieve a solution to the problem if the affected spouse dislikes change of any kind. You can't solve marital problems by do nothing about them. I agree but I was responding specifically to her question It would be nice if there were some ways to apply the POJA to our marriage without meltdowns and weeks of isolation when things don't go as planned. I could not see how using the POJA could be triggering meltdowns and weeks of isolation.
3 adult children Divorced - he was a serial adulterer Now remarried, thank you MB (formerly lied_to_again)
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Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.
FWW/BW (me) WH 2nd M for both Blended Family with 7 kids between us Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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Yes, I agree that MB would make a marriage to an Aspie easier. I think my son is on the spectrum though we've never had him diagnosed. You said the inability to do the EN rather than won't. Well let us say you have a need for affection. Dr. Harley recommends being VERY specific to your spouse: Cuddle with me in bed before you get up. Give me a kiss and a hug goodbye when you go to work. Call me once in the morning to tell me you love me and see how I'm doing. Call me again in the afternoon and tell me you love me and see if you can do anything for me on the way home. Give me a big hug when you walk in the door. Sometime in the evening sit down with me on the couch. Put your arm around me and ask me about my day. Ask me questions about my day.
I would think that would be ideal for an aspie. They could just follow the formula. What EN is he not meeting? Could you be that specific about it?
As far as POJA, I agree. That actually prevents surprises which Aspie's HATE. I know I had to tell my son that we would practice driving ahead of time. He would freak out if hubby just came up to him and asked him to drive with him right then. Even an hour's notice made a big difference.
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Otherwise the outcome will be no change which should also be very reassuring. I do not see how this is not working for you. Maybe you could give us an example of your use of POJA? But the "no change' is not a proper solution to marital problems. It is the temporary position that Dr Harley recommends while positive solutions are brainstormed. Therefore, "no change" would be reassuring to the Aspergers spouse forever, but the non-Aspergers spouse might never be able to achieve a solution to the problem if the affected spouse dislikes change of any kind. You can't solve marital problems by do nothing about them. I agree but I was responding specifically to her question It would be nice if there were some ways to apply the POJA to our marriage without meltdowns and weeks of isolation when things don't go as planned. I could not see how using the POJA could be triggering meltdowns and weeks of isolation. I suddenly got what you meant, and I changed my post!
BW Married 1989 His PA 2003-2006 2 kids.
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Thank you for the link. Unfortunately I still don't feel that it addresses the issue of whether techniques applied to a "neurotypical" marriage can translate into a mixed neurological marriage. We have been in therapy together and separately for a few months. Married for 4 years (no kids). To be succinct about this, the marriage advice I have been given has either been "Accept, accept, accept" or "Leave, leave, leave". It would be nice if there were some ways to apply the POJA to our marriage without meltdowns and weeks of isolation when things don't go as planned. But thank you again for your time and consideration!!!  I too would be interested in knowing more about your situation; although I agree with the above suggestions given thusfar. writing the radio show is definitely a good recommendation in my view. I wonder about your use of POJA seemingly in isolation of the other MB concepts. Perhaps this is not true but maybe you could elaborate - what other concepts are you familiar with and trying to implement? How do you do your POJA? E.G. My fiance and I are in the habit of asking if the other is enthusiastic about many decisions (even the most mundane); this makes POJAing the bigger decisions much more fluid. Do you spend 15-20 hours of UA together? How are your LB's? Congrats to your husband for finding this site. You have a good path here to make your marriage better than you ever thought possible! ~optimism ETA: I wanted to second the opinion that the counselor you have doesn't sound to be very productive for you. Is this counselor familiar with MB concepts?
Last edited by optimism; 11/20/12 10:23 AM. Reason: eta
Me: 43 y.o. BFWH, D-day 11/11/09 (NC since 9/01) Divorce from WW final 9/16/10. Current Status: MB-based Marriage to Nature Girl 12/8/12 (first date on 12/11/10) Mine: S(16), D(11) NatureGirls: S(23), D(21) Another EA Story
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Yes, if you could give us an example of where POJA led to a meltdown, then we could help you more.
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Let's begin with a brief description of AS; Asperger syndrome (AS), also known as Asperger's syndrome or Asperger disorder, is an autism spectrum disorder (ASD) that is characterized by significant difficulties in social interaction, alongside restricted and repetitive patterns of behavior and interests. It differs from other autism spectrum disorders by its relative preservation of linguistic and cognitive development. Although not required for diagnosis, physical clumsiness and atypical (peculiar, odd) use of language are frequently reported.[1][2] The syndrome is named after the Austrian pediatrician Hans Asperger who, in 1944, studied and described children in his practice who lacked nonverbal communication skills, demonstrated limited empathy with their peers, and were physically clumsy.[3] The modern conception of Asperger syndrome came into existence in 1981[4] and went through a period of popularization,[5][6] becoming standardized as a diagnosis in the early 1990s. Many questions remain about aspects of the disorder.[7] For example, there is doubt about whether it is distinct from high-functioning autism (HFA);[8] partly because of this, its prevalence is not firmly established.[1] It has been proposed that the diagnosis of Asperger's be eliminated, to be replaced by a diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder on a severity scale.[9] The exact cause is unknown. Although research suggests the likelihood of a genetic basis,[1] there is no known genetic etiology[10][11] and brain imaging techniques have not identified a clear common pathology.[1] There is no single treatment, and the effectiveness of particular interventions is supported by only limited data.[1] Intervention is aimed at improving symptoms and function. The mainstay of management is behavioral therapy, focusing on specific deficits to address poor communication skills, obsessive or repetitive routines, and physical clumsiness.[12] Most children improve as they mature to adulthood, but social and communication difficulties may persist.[7] Some researchers and people with Asperger's have advocated a shift in attitudes toward the view that it is a difference, rather than a disability that must be treated or cured.[13][14] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndromeSo, the original question is, how does one approach POJA when one spouse has AS? In my view, it is quite simple. You see, one of the markers of AS that would seem to make implementing MB and POJA in a marriage with an AS spouse is the "lack of empathy for others." But, sometimes spouses who DON'T have AS have a lack of empathy for others and can implement MB and POJA. How? Because the MB methods aren't about creating EMPATHY, they are about creating HABITS that demonstrate care. Implementing POJA is simply agreeing to not do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse. If you do not enthusastically agree with something, the issue is shelved until something that you both agree with enthusiastically can be found. It doesn't require empathy, it requires honesty; I am/am not enthusastic about that. When that habit is created, romantic love is created through an increase in Love Bank deposits which are protected through POJA.
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Because the MB methods aren't about creating EMPATHY, they are about creating HABITS that demonstrate care. bingo! He nailed it to the wall! 
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Thank you all again for your posts!
I can agree and understand how the POJA can work in practical solutions. The actually making of a decision is made easier for us by POJA, yes!
But if life happens, and something unforeseen happens (illness, work, friends, vet trips etc...) or perhaps I find something we have agreed upon is something I have found, after trying it, is something I would like to re-evaluate... it gets messy. Once something is agreed upon it feels like a law. It is almost like having the set agreement makes some of his rigid approaches to life more validity to be rigid, then it falls apart. I have become too scared to agree to anything for fear of having it held against me. Or as I said.. meltdowns and and isolation.
As per EN, yes having direct and explicit instructions on how to meet them can work. For a limited time. Asking for a hug is no big deal. Asking for one every day, in all circumstances, in all states of vulnerability can become a whole lot more taxing than just going without.
I struggle specifically with the emotional need for conversation and sexual fulfillment. My husband enjoys talking about about his special interests, but gets bored and confused if the topic is not directly related to him or his interests and will quickly gear the conversation (or "telling" which is how I see it as there are very limited interactive aspects) back to his safe zone. This leaves me feeling unheard, invalid and uninteresting. Sex, he will openly admit, is just not a priority for him and is more stressful than not... we have definitely tried to POJA this one for 2 years.. again.. you can say what you need, but it becomes incredibly taxing day-by-day, year-by-year. Every EN has to be expressed from scratch every time.
I love my husband dearly. Aspies have amazing qualities and are some of the most golden-hearted people I can imagine! But I feel like a bird in love with a fish. Do I love him? YES! Can I negotiate day to day life while breathing different atmospheres? I would love to know how.
I may look into the radio show, but as I live in Malaysia, the logistics of it are quite difficult.
Warmness and gratefulness for your thoughts
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The logistics are very easy no matter where you live in the world.
You send an email to the radio show explaining your problem. Mrs Harley will let you know when your query will be answered on the show. You listen on that day, either to the live broadcast or to the re-broadcast that goes on for 24 hours after the live show. No matter where you are in the world you must be able to listen within the 24-hour period.
If you want to talk to Dr Harley on the show you must tell him that in the original email. That will only be possible if the time zones allow (and I imagine you would have to pay for the international call).
But emails are easily dealt with.
BW Married 1989 His PA 2003-2006 2 kids.
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Thank you all again for your posts!
I can agree and understand how the POJA can work in practical solutions. The actually making of a decision is made easier for us by POJA, yes!
But if life happens, and something unforeseen happens (illness, work, friends, vet trips etc...) or perhaps I find something we have agreed upon is something I have found, after trying it, is something I would like to re-evaluate... it gets messy. Once something is agreed upon it feels like a law. It is almost like having the set agreement makes some of his rigid approaches to life more validity to be rigid, then it falls apart. I have become too scared to agree to anything for fear of having it held against me. Or as I said.. meltdowns and and isolation.
As per EN, yes having direct and explicit instructions on how to meet them can work. For a limited time. Asking for a hug is no big deal. Asking for one every day, in all circumstances, in all states of vulnerability can become a whole lot more taxing than just going without.
I struggle specifically with the emotional need for conversation and sexual fulfillment. My husband enjoys talking about about his special interests, but gets bored and confused if the topic is not directly related to him or his interests and will quickly gear the conversation (or "telling" which is how I see it as there are very limited interactive aspects) back to his safe zone. This leaves me feeling unheard, invalid and uninteresting. Sex, he will openly admit, is just not a priority for him and is more stressful than not... we have definitely tried to POJA this one for 2 years.. again.. you can say what you need, but it becomes incredibly taxing day-by-day, year-by-year. Every EN has to be expressed from scratch every time.
I love my husband dearly. Aspies have amazing qualities and are some of the most golden-hearted people I can imagine! But I feel like a bird in love with a fish. Do I love him? YES! Can I negotiate day to day life while breathing different atmospheres? I would love to know how.
I may look into the radio show, but as I live in Malaysia, the logistics of it are quite difficult.
Warmness and gratefulness for your thoughts A lot of this, again, can be addressed by simply using this program to create habits. There is a wonderful Q&A about meeting the need for affection that lays out something like your example of a hug every day. By creating the habit of being affectionate, rather than asking for a hug every day, he will simply follow an outline. Once it becomes HABIT, it will not feel forced or unnatural. In fact, once these things become habit, it will feel much worse to NOT follow through on them. SF; schedule, schedule, schedule. This allows not only for preparation - which can reduce stress - but you can schedule it for days and times of day where you both have good amounts of energy and low distractions. This is something that you can sit down together and brainstorm mutually enjoyable solutions. Conversation; look for common interests. That's what you do when you are dating, you discuss common interests. Review the "Friends and Enemies of Good Conversation." As far as the long-term of POJA; a POJA agreement is always tenuous based upon the enthusiastic agreement of both spouses. If one spouse is no longer enthusiastic, then the item is shelved until it can be modified to the enthusiastic agreement of both spouses again. Again, if you apply this program for BOTH of you to create HABITS, you will most certainly not be addressing each EN from scratch.
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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But if life happens, and something unforeseen happens (illness, work, friends, vet trips etc...) or perhaps I find something we have agreed upon is something I have found, after trying it, is something I would like to re-evaluate... it gets messy. Once something is agreed upon it feels like a law. It is almost like having the set agreement makes some of his rigid approaches to life more validity to be rigid, then it falls apart. I have become too scared to agree to anything for fear of having it held against me. Or as I said.. meltdowns and and isolation. Can you give us some specific examples of what has happened between you?
BW Married 1989 His PA 2003-2006 2 kids.
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One example may be that I agree to go swimming (his special interest) with him on Mondays. But after doing this once or twice, I find it too rigid and want to change it to once a week rather than a set day. Or maybe just on one Monday I have the flu and don't want to go swimming. The result will be the same. He will feel that our agreement has been deeply violated and this will result in a meltdown. He will then shut down from me and can be deeply resentful for a long time.
This actually happened in the first year of our marriage and to this day every time we go swimming he will ask me why I am going swimming with him, because I obviously hate swimming. Which I don't. But it has taken 3 years for him to slowly be less angry whenever the issue of swimming comes up.
This is a very simplistic example of how once we have POJA something, but it doesnt work out exactly as planned, can make things worse.
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